Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/contest.ez?contest_id=431&folder_id=27

Hi all The Fractal Gallery Vote closed the other night at Midnight Rosity time. As you can see by the vote results, the current Fractal Gallery guidelines that were posted back in July, will remain. We must admit we were very happy with the amount of votes that came in. And happy as well that there weren't too many suspicious votes. There were only a few that could be discounted as clones or from non-fractal artists. Let it be known that from now on, images will not be moved automatically. That is, any artist that posts an image to the Fractal gallery that does not fit within the guidelines, will receive an IM asking the artist to move the image themselves. Also, we would greatly appreciate it if everyone would take a look at their galleries, and move images that might be suited to another gallery. Just to keep things fair across the board, y'know :) Also, just a reminder that as this was a vote by the Fractal Community here, and was conducted in the fairest manner possible. Please respect the results, and understand that this was done with the best intentions for this community. Thank you, Nick and Barbara

Now someone has to define what "focus of an image must be 'fractal'" really means. If you go after Mandelbrot's definition the pure algorithmic art without self-similarity and independance from scale must leave the fractal gallery. And this would be a great part of my works... This would be a sad good-bye...

Andreas
We are not taking the 'purist' view here. Your works are fine, and belong here.
We are simply stating that the use of 3D/2D, Photos, tubes, Poser stuff, etc. should NOT be the 'focus' in images posted to the FRactal gallery.
And further, post-processing was not the BIG issue either (as this has come up as well). There is no problem with post-processing, as long as you can tell that the image was composed based on fractal means.
Hmmm...an example....look at peapodgrrl's work (hope you don't mind my reference, Mindy :)).

I hope that helps :)

Nick

I find the outcome,very very disapointing but life is like that sometimes. I will say no more. Take care .

Hi Nick, Mindy's works still look like fractals, Terry's very don't. But they arised from fractals. So the "fractal focus" still has to be defined... Andreas

well i guess soon we shall see all 121 fractalists upload their designs to this community ... or 76 will just move away from here unfortenately...

That's not the way that I choose to look at the numbers. In my view there are 99 people who want to see fractal related images in the fractal gallery and 22 who don't care what is in the fractal gallery.

I choose to see it as 5/1 against creativity, vision and originality, but then this is all just semantics and pointless. The vote was made, the results were posted and everyone lost...It's all downhill from here. I hear people bitching on about fractal art not being accepted in the mainstream and then when I think we are finally getting some recognition...We impose pointless restrictions on ourselves and push some of the best fractal artwork of the last few years into the mixed medium gallery... Irony doesn't even cover it...Idiocy maybe... Matt. (That was my final word on the subject).

Yikes.

I will respect your guidelines as best I can (although I think I made my opinion known ;)) but much of my work looks nothing like fractals, and in a goodly amount of images, like the one below, about five percent of it is fractal and ninety-five percent is Mindy messing around. So I am kind of surprised you would use me as someone who adheres, because in actuality, I truly don't. My work, according to your guidelines, in all honesty does not belong here. :)

Matt......for what it's worth, I wholly agree with you. And Andreas, I respectfully disagree. Much of my work looks nothing like fractals, or the original render, and that is quite purposeful on my part. :)

Message edited on: 10/29/2004 16:04

Attached Link: http://www.nga.gov/collection/index.shtm

I honestly and truely do not understand how anyone could allow their creativity to be reduced by a gallery definition. Has anyone ever been to a real museum that isn't organized by some criteria? Would it be offensive to display fractal art in the "works on paper" area of the national gallery? Would that somehow inhibit creativity?

Hi Deagol, It's a sad day for this community in particular and art in general. I am very much for a democratic society, but in this case majority rule made everyone a loser. :( Someone in this thread made a very salient point: we all want fractal art to gain legitimacy, and this is almost like ghettoizing it. Digital art itself has a long road to hoe, since there are just as many "purists" who think if you don't put brush to paper you're Satan's child and not a "true artist." This is just more of the same flat-earther thinking. I am very sorry to see it. But I must admit to being amused that my work is welcome, because it is in such flagrant violation of this rule. :)

Peapodgirl wrote "But I must admit to being amused that my work is welcome, because it is in such flagrant violation of this rule." Mixing art and hypocrisy is like mixing oil and water or as "Pogo" was want to say, "We has found the enemy and he is us"! I couldn't agree with you more. Mike

lol well actually ya have been tricked: the score is: 1. option 2 and 3: 60 votes 2. option 1: 45 votes 3. option 4: 16 votes 2 and 3 are the same, cause the guidelines of allowing 'mixed works' are exactly to it was before the new guidelines but all doesn't really matter, it messed up the whole community and made a new discussion taking place... people don't have to upload their mixed works to the mixed media gallery, because their choice of the focus of an image is negotiable... the focus of a design is made by the artist, not by the viewer... the viewer may see something different in each work of art, thats their freedom so ya have no reason to leave or end your creativity thats my opinion have a nice day, Harmen btw as for my nature and animal artworks are concerned, if you print that on paper, it looks like paintings, not fractals...

Harmen wrote: "the focus of a design is made by the artist, not by the viewer... the viewer may see something different in each work of art, thats their freedom" I believe you are missing the point. If the moderators think an image doesn't belong in the fractal section, the artist will be asked to remove it. That is the crux of the matter, and it is an unfortunate one. So even though the viewer may see something different in each work of art---and you are totally correct here---by allowing someone else other than the artist who created it to categorize their own work is a slipperly slope and a wholly unnecessary one.

@Mindy - who cares for 95% Mindy messing around? As soon as a "purist" leaves the center of a Julia, there is no longer a fractal design visible. Is it still an image for the fractal gallery? I just looked at the first page in your gallery and found many fractals (I do not care for post-processing)... At least much more "fractal-like" than Terry's works. I am not happy with the outcome of the vote and in my eyes a minority rules now... But I just try to post my fractals here and wait for reactions...

Andreas wrote: "Is it still an image for the fractal gallery?" It is still an image for a Fractal ART Gallery, yes, Andreas, it most certainly is. Terry belongs here. You belong here. I belong here. If anybody feels differently, it is most certainly their loss.

Attached Link: http://www.elena-fractals.it/

Did anybody read the FAQ section in http://www.elena-fractals.it/?

I couldn't get past the arrogance, churlishness and ALL CAPITAL LETTERS to read it.

C'mon, Min, don't couch your opinon in flowery language, say it like you feel it. ;) To put it rather crudely, because I think it's just the best way to describe what I'm seeing here: I think some of you are going up your own assholes on this one. What was wrong with the gallery the way it was before? And what does someone's private, power trip of an FAQ section have to do with the Renderosity frac gallery? It's all just too ridiculous. :)

Hey Ween, You're even a better politician than I am! eg I was kinda wondering the same thing. :)

Okay A couple of questions: 1)How is it limiting someone's creativity, by categorizing? There ARE galleries on Rendo for everything. 2)Why should someone post an image to the 'Fractal' gallery, if the focus of the image is clearly non-fractal (3D objects, Poser, tubes, photos, text, etc.)? Matt "I hear people bitching on about fractal art not being accepted in the mainstream and then when I think we are finally getting some recognition...We impose pointless restrictions on ourselves and push some of the best fractal artwork of the last few years into the mixed medium gallery..." So, exposing fractals to non-fractal artists is a bad thing? I still think that 'mixed' fractal/other works in the 'Mixed Medium' gallery would get more people interested in fractals. Mindy I don't feel your works are in violation. There is no problem with post-processing in this gallery. I used you as an example, BECAUSE of your use of post-processing. Now, if you were to throw in a Poser babe, 3D object, tube, etc. in them....well, that's a different story. Nick

I have a question ? If you have a fractal program that creates 3 dimensional Fractals, why couldn't a person post them on the fractal gallery? I mean, Chaoscope is a recognized Fractal Program and I can produce 3 dimensional work there. So what I am to do in this situation? Not only are my designs in danger of being ousted from this gallery, so are all of those who use xenodream program or any number of other programs which produce 3 dimensional fractals. Somehow I get the feeling that there is so very little that this board is willing to accept. Soon all fractals will be only designed in one program and slated to all look pretty much the same. I am not trying to change the rules here, but whats the use of being creative , when you don't allow us to create? I can not settle for a straight out of the generator design. I want to use what I have and try to form something unique from it. I believe that a lot of us do as well, but if a person uses a fractal program and happens to create a 3 dimensional piece, why not allow that as a fractal design? I am confused :-S Thanks for your time, Sharon

I do not think that 3D fractals or XenoDream images are banned from here. They appear relatively often. Could be more often IMO.

Hello Nick,

You are not limiting creativity by categorizing. Not until the moment when you ask an artist to remove an image that the artist deems as appropriate for a certain category; when you do, it is then that you are engaging in disrupting a subjective decision process. This is a process that should be left solely up to the artist. That is the crux of the argument. Who gets to deem what is appropriate, and what is not? Why is a Poser figure less desirable than one of my pieces, when the Poser has sixty percent fractal in it and mine five percent? Not only is that unfair, it's illogical and goes against your very own rules.

I don't like Poser either, Nick. I think very few Poser users have a modicum of talent. I have seen a few, who truly do know how to use the program and they have blown me away. However, what we think does not matter. To disqualify their work because they have melded fractal and Poser is patently unfair, and is artistic tyranny.

Let people put their images where they deem appropriate. If there is no fractal in an image, by all means, remove it. But if someone uses a fractal in a different or interesting way, it should remain and should not be told it needs to be removed.

This rule is absurd, unfair, it cannot possibly be objective and the only people who benefit from it are a group of flat-earthers who believe any postwork on fractal is akin to satanic worship. Everyone else embraces all kinds of fractal art with open arms...whether it's good art, bad art, or has a Poser babe in it. Please don't enforce this rule. It's a bad one.

Mindy

The doom and gloom that is being expessed here is beyond me. The guidelines have been in place for what, 6 months? and somehow the fractal community is still alive. Maybe the best fractal art has moved into the mixed medium gallery. So what? Is the art in the mixed medium gallery a lower form of life or something? Is it somehow less creative or less beautiful? I challenge anyone to give a specific example of how the guidelines have damaged creativity, fractal art, digital art or whatever. Give me proof. Show me an image or an artist that has somehow been damaged by the guidelines. Be specific. Otherwise this is just a bunch of baseless complaining. I am not buying the arguement that the whole gallery has been damaged, so don't feed me that line. There are still plenty of beautful images being posted in it. This is Renderosty, not The Louvre. It's a free gallery. It has images from 10 year old kids in it. If I were an artist that was about to break into the mainstream, I wouldn't be looking to do it here. This place is 95% oversized boobs and fun. Any serious artist is going to have their own galleries with their own standards. The guidelines in this place pose no threat to digital art breaking into the mainstream.

That's an easy one, Deagol. Ask Terry Wright if he felt welcome by posting his art in the fractal gallery. In fact, he felt so unwelcome (he was urged to post his work in 2D instead) that he took a six-month haitus. Terry is a wonderful artist who uses fractals as a jumping off point, as I do, and sometimes the fractal isn't evident as these rules would like it to be. Terry was only recently told his fractal-based digital art was welcome in the fractal gallery. The point is very simple, so simple, it's almost beautiful. Let the artist decide where his/her image belongs. Is that so hard? Is that so threatening? Since you put out a challenge, I have one for you: I challenge you to illustrate how such subjective, absurd rule enhances an art gallery instead of stifling it. Mindy

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1391930

Hmmm...wasn't this where all the questions started about whether an image was appropriate or not?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12416&Form.ShowMessage=1843499

you should know Keith, you started this war!!!

Quote - [b] Here we go again, but I can't help it... What's with all of these mostly non-fractal images showing up in the fractal gallery? I know what's up. In the fractal gallery someone could put a pile of dog crap in front of a random batch flame with a flood filter and it would get 10 comments. Put it in the mixed medium or Bryce gallery where it belongs and it may not get any comments. Our addiction to comments is killing us. Show a little backbone. Take a chance and put these images where they belong. Someone might even offer to help, or even better, we might see our images for what they really are, and maybe they really are masterpieces, but maybe not... [/b]

That's a great link Tresamie. I left here not because of any rules that were/were not in place. I left because of the condescending, narrow minded, scathing comments of Peapodgrrl and others like her. Her "holier than thou, you're all flat earthers" comments were the last straw. I ran into one of the better known artists from here at Deviantart and came back for another look because of it. Seems like nothing has changed. Don't miss this place one bit. It's not the rules that are driving people away, it's the people that are. For all you that think rules are stifling your creativity, first, be grateful you have a free site that will take your artwork, and secondly, do a study of the history of art and how the masters had rules and restrictions on them, but they produced timeless pieces regardless because they were wise enough to rise above it. The only thing limited around here is the ability to rise above the "attitudes" that thrive in this place.

I am very pleased you found my comments scathing. I haven't lost my touch.

If you sit on your pedestal and judge what is worthy and not for a gallery depending upon one's own twisted concept of artistic "purity", "flat earthers" fits quite nicely. Which is undoubtedly why you're torked. :)

Who are you, anyway? I am sure I would have missed you had I noticed your absence. :)

@aeires: I do not think that self-made restrictions can improve one's art. They may be good for some experiments, for focusing on certain program features, etc. But in general art always left the near frontiers and searched for new ones, tried to look behind the horizon. The Fractal Gallery has room for classical fractals, for fractal explorations and discoveries, for fractal art or whatever the artists connect with this expression resp. their own images.
This gallery won't go down because of this discussion, it will survive it. And telling other people bad names should not be part of this discussion, but is somewhat normal behaviour that everyone everywhere seems to experience...

Andreas

Nice friendly "community" this place has become. When you live by the rules you get insulted in numerous manners. How many people have to show up at the doorsteps of Deviant Art before someone realizes there are major problems here?

aeires said: "That's a great link Tresamie. I left here not because of any rules that were/were not in place. I left because of the condescending, narrow minded, scathing comments of Peapodgrrl and others like her. Her "holier than thou, you're all flat earthers" comments were the last straw. I ran into one of the better known artists from here at Deviantart and came back for another look because of it. Seems like nothing has changed. Don't miss this place one bit. It's not the rules that are driving people away, it's the people that are. For all you that think rules are stifling your creativity, first, be grateful you have a free site that will take your artwork, and secondly, do a study of the history of art and how the masters had rules and restrictions on them, but they produced timeless pieces regardless because they were wise enough to rise above it. The only thing limited around here is the ability to rise above the "attitudes" that thrive in this place." And don't forget "dismissive." :) Oh, so you're in favor of those "rules and restrictions"? You want to go back to those days? Better toss the computer and stock up on eggs and minerals to mix up your tempra paints with. Come back up to the present day, where modern artists broke the rules -- and then, with Dadaism, tossed those rules forever. Cracks me up that you call names while bemoning how unfriendly the place has become.

"Flat earthers" was rather mild, aeries. You should see me when I'm really upset about something. If that's vicious insult, then I hope you never get into politics. :)

@aeires: Whatever you may think - IMO this definitely IS a nice and friendly community. The percentage of people I have problems with is near to zero. I do not know every artist here, but this is not necessary to experience friendliness. And I focus on those friendly ones. One does not need to have the whole world as a friend, which is impossible IMO.