A few of the artists here don't like to use postwork on their poser renders. I applaud them, because for the life of me I can't make a pure render look decent. I have an open mind and I do enjoy it when an artist put so much efford into the render with by squeezing every drop out of that software. It is an artform by itself. Here's my beef. Why do some of these purists consider postworking a poser image cheating. I would like to know. Please use examples like: your own artwork, or your system cannot render a complex image, etc. Please play nice. No mud slinging. :o) or else I have to post that horrible dead horse and stick image. JV :o)

Lately, I've been doing pure poser renders, simply because I want to learn to push Poser to the max. Well, the max for my computer, lol. I love the reflections that you can make IN the program, I love the great textures that show up. That, and I S U C K at postwork. Badly. I'm learning, though, LOL. Plus, some of the artists that are an inspiration to me, personally, are some of what I consider to be the BEST at postwork on Poser renders ;)

Personally, I'm too lazy for postwork. Most of my pictures are meant as part of a series, of unknown length, so I'm more interested in moving on the 'animation' or story line than attempting to improve the individual pictures. Also, I'm more interested in 3D than 2D work. Having said that, I'm currently writing a textbook for Serif PhotoPlus, so I might change my mind

I consider myself a poser purist. I make quick pictures and do not spend the time to alter them in Photoshop. I rarly use Photoshop except to Save for Web to do better compression. Why do I not use post-editing? Because these are scratch pictures, testing out looks and feels that I will not send to others widely. If I went and tries to make it looking good, I would get so frustrated trying to clean up every little item.

Absolutely not. But I'm not an anti-Poser snob either. Its a great tool, that has some really strong points, but for me it works better in conjunction with other applications. some points where other apps work well with Poser-- --render engine. The first moment that you see what Max or LW ( or Vue 'Esprit for that matter) does with imported Poser content, you'll be blown away. mental ray is simply a much better renderer than the Firefly engine, and fPrime makes radiosity and GI fx an interactive cinch on LW. Despite the clever work of some on creating good shaders for Firefly, I still find the Poser render to be slow and less good. --non-photorealistic rendering. Its a not often noticed feature, but Poser will export a Painter script which can then be rendered in any of Painter's zillion brushes, very cool and quick way to get a sophisticated painterly effect. --eyes. Eyes are funny things, and getting them right always means some postwork in Photoshop-- I just haven't seen models with the conjunctiva/eye interface that works convincingly, just as I haven't see a convincing teeth and smile out of a Poser render. --model economy. Poser has a very old method with zillions of polygons. . .if you're working with a modern 3d app, you've got some kind of subdivision surface to work with, and can make clothes and so on with many fewer polys. My #1 request for Poser 6 is subD surfaces. . .

I think to be a 'purist' of any kind is really limiting.

I do not know a thing about postwork :D Meanwhile I do know a little more about Poser. So I am trying to do as much as possible with Poser. I'd say, it's all about what you are going for. Do you want to create an image and Poser, Photoshop, whatever are just tools, or do you want to see what you can do with Poser, or what you can do to a render with another program? So I wouldn't call myself a Poser purist even if I wouldn't use any other program.

I am not a purist, but I don't do any postwork. I am oriented toward 3d renderings and models and not toward 2d. My intention is to improve rendering engines and models, there is a large field to be researched and much to be done.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=871017&Start=1&Artist=wolf359&ByArtist=Yes

Poser Purist would be the wrong word for me, but I do like to leave my renders (whatever I do them in) as they are. I have done some major pwork in the past, but I got to thinking that I should be able to do it all in the 3b package I'm working in. It does put some limitations on my work (hair usually :) ) but I'd like to work out ways round it in 3d rather than paint it in psp or something. Just to emphasise, not because I'm against it in general :) I like the challenge of finding solutions more :) John

I always look at the 3d images at cgtalk (of course no Poser there) and marvel at the great high-end software renders. Then I go to the 2d section, and I see pure Photoshop and Painter works that just kick the 3d stuff's butt. I mean they are just more imaginative in general. Just an observation to throw in. So, I agree with kawecki that there is a lot to be done in 3d yet, until it can accomodate the imaginations of the artists without it being so much work. It seems to me that 3d alone is still way too much work getting great results. My two-billionths of a cent.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=867742&Start=1&Artist=Jim+Burton&ByArtist=Yes

Do you consider overall color correction postwork? Almost every render I do will be treated with Photoshop's levels and/or curves. It can vastly improve an image, and it's much quicker than adjusting lights, render, repeat.

I generally do all my rendering in PoserPP. Only do post work if and when I cannot either get the effect I want or to correct a problem that can't be done inside of Poser.

I think people (especially Poser users) think of 'postwork' in simple terms compared to the 3D community at large. For example, 99% of the time, when you ask a Poser user what postwork consists of, they'll say things like "painting over a render" or "painting in the hair" or "fixing joints", etc. While this is indeed classified as postwork, it's not typically the same kind of postwork done with 3D animation. If you ask a 3dsmax or Maya or Lightwave user what postwork consists of, usually you get a much different, broader answer. Things like compositing, color correction, FX, and video editing come to mind.

I've been working for myself doing 3D animation in one form or another professionally now for a little over 4 years. The fact that I use Poser in conjunction with other apps now has brought some criticism from some people who say it's 'cheating'. However, I've noticed in almost every case the only people really concerned with HOW I achieve the final product (animations) are usually people who do NOT work professionally in the biz, and even more, are NEVER the clients who pay me for a project.

Anyone who knows anything about making FX for movies, animations, or even still images for commercial purposes, know that the final product is 99.9% of the time never what comes straight out of the renderer itself. It's always taken to post for various reasons. Particularly, when something can be done just as well (but faster) in post, it saves time and money. FX studios invest millions on things like Inferno workstations, which is basically a top-of-the-line video post-processing software/hardware system. Obviously, no one is going to tell them their "cheating".

Did Pixar "cheat" when they did postwork on The Incredibles?

So no, I don't consider myself a Poser purist at all, because I like to get the best results I can as easily as I can.

On another note, that's NOT to say you shouldn't strive to understand every inch of whatever program(s) you use. If you don't know what each application is capable of, you won't know the best way to get a project completed with the least amount of stress.

;-)

Message edited on: 02/03/2005 16:48

I'm a purist in every 3D program I use. That's not to say that I don't do touchups on a lot of my work, but rather I try very hard to avoid having to. My reason is simply that I want every model I make, every scene I set up to work as an animation or still. It's certainly easy enough to deal with poke-throughs and glowing nostrils in a still image, but life is too short to do that for even one second of animation. Why couldn't they have made Poser so the renderer would always draw the clothes over the corresponding body part? I know it'd be a cheat, but it would save the purists alot of grief.

"My reason is simply that I want every model I make, every scene I set up to work as an animation or still. It's certainly easy enough to deal with poke-throughs and glowing nostrils in a still image, but life is too short to do that for even one second of animation."

Things like avoiding poke-though on clothing for animation is VERY easy to do. Just make the body parts behind the clothing non-renderable or hidden. Glowing nostrils is also an easy fix pre-render.

There's very little you can't do in post, even for animation. Very little. The only thing that is problematic is animated hair or fur... it's very difficult to hand animate hair in post in the same way you can paint it in a still image (although it can be done), but using strand-based hair is a good solution. Most all of the high-end apps have strand-based hair (or fur) plugins, and Poser's dynamic hair is OK for some situations, but collisions are still problematic with it. Message edited on: 02/03/2005 16:56

I'll just quote myself from the thread (and the post, I believe) that inspired this thread:

*Ahhh.....I just love purists.

Kind of like when color photographic film first came out many decades ago.......

At the time, color film was largely considered to be nothing more than a gimmick -- "real" photographs were always in B&W.

It's possible that some people still think so today.*

If I'm wanting to work within Poser and its limitations, I'm a purist. If I'm just wanting a result I'm a whore. I'll use any means necessary to achieve the result; my clients don't give a damn about how I did it, they just want a nice picture., I do "Pure" Poser stuff for fun and mental exercise. Oh, and to show off a bit. I can make a pretty good render without postwork so there's a little bit of a thrill (sad but true) there.

Nope, I'm not a purist. As maxxxmodelz mentioned, whatever achieves the best results in the least amount of time is the best solution. There are always people who will push a product to it's limits just to see what can be done for fun (the Hedy Lamar CorelDraw cover, for instance, or sophisticated drawings made with an Etch-a-Sketch). A lot of tricks and shortcuts can be learned with playing around with the many obscure options that a program has. With limited time to draw, I'm more interested in what's expedient. If there's a new trick in Poser that will make my renders better and save me some postwork time, I'm all for it. Like Stewer, I've found it much easier to punch up lighting, once I've achieved a look I'm happy with in Poser, using Photoshop curves than to keep trying to tweak the lights in Poser and render them to see if they look like they do in the draft mode. I think the hangup some Poser purists have is that the end result is no longer a Poser image. There are some images where the postwork leaves little behind and somebody can quibble whether they belong in the Poser or Photoshop gallery, but it doesn't really matter to me. It's a great image or it isn't and I'm not too concerned about how the artist categorized the final results. Anybody who gets angry over techniques needs to grow up because the general public couldn't care less about how an image is generated, whether it's Poser, Maya, Photoshop, or good old oil paints. I don't think businesses or clients care either as long as the work meets their needs. Unfortunately, some people invest so much time in one technique that they develop an attitude that nothing else is worth exploring. That's fine for them if they're enjoying what they're doing, but it's silly to think that's all there is to life or art. There's nothing wrong with specializing. Many artists become masters in their techniques. If they're rational people, they don't get upset because others explore other artistic media. My second ever Poser image was blasted by a 3D purist because I hadn't created any of the models (which he wouldn't have known if I hadn't credited the creators). It's really ridiculous when somebody gets upset over HOW an image is created. That kind of an emotional reaction says more about the poster than the artist.

For me, it's all about the finished product. I compare art to music. A good recording will sound 10x better if it is mixed properly, just like an image will look better if it is postworked. Just my opinion.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=320021&Start=1&Artist=leather%2Dguy&ByArtist=Yes

Good artists use all the tools at their disposal. A picture is no better because someone spent half an hour wrestling with magnets in Poser to fix a blemish rather than ten seconds and the clone tool in Photoshop.

For me anything thats gets the result Im after is valid. Its hard enough trying to get the concept from my head to the screen as it is without adding restrictions on the way I do it.

I touch up poke-thru and creased joints. I may soften the hair, and harsh lines and shadows. Often I do multi-pass renders and composite them. I usually render the same scene twice, with and without raytraced shadows. Then I composite and use erase tool to blend them. I manually blur the distance, then do the rub-thru. I may use several blur levels to create defocus. And I add motion-blur manually, with layers. I use python quite a bit. MetaForm and Particles2 are awesome. Do Purists use these? Or are they anti-purist cheating? I do not know, nor do I care. I use them, I like them, they work for me. I DO try to do as much as economically feasible within Poser, like rays, plasma, explosions, etc. So I strive to be a purist, but do not expect to be one. There are a few renders in my gallery that use the above techniques and tools. If an artist wants to use Poser ONLY, that is their business. They are neither right nor wrong. Same goes for multi-tool users. Do what you must to get the image the way you want it to be.

I think to be a 'purist' of any kind is really limiting. Yes, well said, Xee. I'm the opposite of a Poser purist. I do tons of postwork. ;-) I do it because I enjoy it, and I like the end results. I don't understand the 'if you use postwork you're cheating' attitude, it really mystifies me. It's supposed to be art, right? shrug bonni

I've noticed in almost every case the only people really concerned with HOW I achieve the final product (animations) are usually people who do NOT work professionally in the biz, and even more, are NEVER the clients who pay me for a project. My husband has done professional work in the high-end 3D realm (programmer, not artist), and is still known and active on a couple of highly professional mailing lists for Maya. On those lists people sometimes suggest Poser for certain projects, and nobody gets their knickers in a knot. These are professionals, they know to use the tools that get the job done. It really is the end result that matters. The tools you use to get there are secondary. bonni

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=872609&Start=1&Artist=Latexluv&ByArtist=Yes

The image I've provided the link for has absolutely no post touch up on the image itself. It came straight out of Poser. Since P5 doesn't provide an infinite sky like Bryce does, I replaced the grey background with a background sky I rendered in Bryce. I have other images where there was no post at all except for putting my logo on it. I like that, when I can push the program and get a picture out of it that all I need to do is put my logo on it. However, I will know the value of postwork in professional work. So I don't hate it or call it cheating. I just right now want to see what I can get Poser to do. I would really, really like to see more P5 materials for special effects. Importation of mats from Bryce would be wonderful! Light Gels like in Bryce in Poser would also be so wonderful! I'd like to learn to use Particles as mentioned by Connatic.

Message edited on: 02/03/2005 19:41

Personally I use whatever tools I have available to make my art look like I want it to look. Occasionally I have a model that doesn't conform the way I want, or a joint that is overly compressed, or maybe just a simple poke-through. These are things that should be corrected in order to make my art look more professional. Often I look at art in the galleries with the proclamation that no postwork was done, but as far as I'm concerned that is sort of like saying that one is not interested in finishing up the piece. Most of those no-postwork pics could really use it, IMO. Best Blessings, --Invidia

"On those lists people sometimes suggest Poser for certain projects, and nobody gets their knickers in a knot. These are professionals, they know to use the tools that get the job done." Yep, that's exactly my point. If Poser can get the job done more efficiently, and it pleases both the client and/or director, then you use it. Plain and simple. In fact, it would be downright STUPID not to. Same goes for anything to do with postwork. For example, if I can use a depth channel to get a perfectly acceptable DOF effect for a particular animation sequence in AfterEffects or Combustion, then I'm going to do it that way instead of rendering a true multi-pass 3D DOF from the renderer, because it will save me literally 10x the processing effort. As long as it gives me a result I'm satisfied with.

I simply can't stand the cheesy rends P4 gives so I import to Bryce for the final render. If I make it in P4 that's pure enough for me. :)

I could never be a purist I hate poser joints way too much lol my post work my consist to just the fixing of joints to throwing every filter and effect I have at the image depending on my mood and what the result looks like :o)

You might be a Poser Purist if. You spent all your money on 250 gigs of Morphing Fantasy Junk, plus a new hard drive to put it on. and now cant afford to buy another app. You might be a Poser Purist if. Youre not very good at post work You might be a Poser Purist if. You really, really, really suck at post work. You might be a Poser Purist if. You suffer from colorblindness and orange people dont bother you much. You might be a Poser Purist if. You were never much into foreplay, so think why bother with this post work crap. You might be a Poser Purist if. You got banned from CGTalk and figure WTF. You might be a Poser Purist if. After seeing Janet Jacksons wardrobe malfunction you think poke-thru is the latest fashion statement. You might be a Poser Purist if. You think saying, I like to push the program makes people believe you work on the cutting-edge. You might be a Poser Purist if. Your girlfriend is a blowup doll, and you find plastic looking people incredibly arousing.

roflmao SWAMP good one am definitely not a purist then in any shape or form ;o)

ROFL@SWAMP!!! I always loved the "You might be a Redneck if..." also and there are a lot of similarities between the two also, since Jeff Foxworthy defines Redneck's as "ppl with a lack of sophistication" and that applies to the subject of purist too doesn't it? If all your images are done using only Poser are they going to take advantage of the other techniques that can be done with different programs? A lot can be done with Poser and it depends on what artist desires for it since not every image needs it but when it does why limit it to only the functions that Poser has? If you're sophisticated then you have a lot more options than those available to comepletely pure.

Cheezy renders? I produced some great P4 renders. Can you give an example of what you think is cheezy?

For years I used Poser as a quick way to inject people into Bryce renders, using Wings props and settings, so I must be a 'render ho'..;) Considering I understand about 30% of Poser, I'm quite the 'diluted', not pure at all..;)

I am certainly not a purest but I try to do as little post work as I can, I prefer to take the time to set up an image more carefuly in Poser and minimise the post ;)

"You might be a Poser Purist if." LOL! Swamp, that's brilliant stuff. Hilarious!

All depend on your goals, if you goal is the final picture you can achieve this goal by several ways and one way can be to pay someone for doing for you..., if he is a great artist you will have a great picture, ...something wrong with this way???

Oooooh, can I add some? You might be a Poser Purist if... You look for the "Breast Size 9" dial on your girlfriend. You might be a Poser Purist if... You jump out of bed and, first thing, assume the T position. You might be a Poser Purist if... Each room in your house has off-white, orange, and green lights because it just seems right. You might be a Poser Purist if... Instead of telling your husband to lie down, you tell him to rotate on the X axis. You might be a Poser Purist if... Victoria has more clothes in her library than you have in your closet. You might be a Poser Purist if... You can look at a person's face and immediately determine the dial formulas to duplicate it on Victoria 3 or Michael 3. You might be a Poser Purist if... You're up until 3AM and still think "Just one more render and I'm done ...."

Bravo Artymotion!

You might be a Poser Purist if...
You're up until 3AM and still think "Just one more render and I'm done ...."

I don't know if this alone would qualify one as a "Poser Purist".

Vue/Bryce/LW/Carrara/Shade/...........ad infinitum addicts will do the same.

For that matter, in the distant past -- I've spent many a night into the wee hours of the morning playing Sid Mier's Civilization in its various incarnations.

Civ IV is supposed to be out some time this year.

As if all of my 3D apps didn't chew up enough of my free time already.........

I like the one about "rotating on the X axis". And the one about the T position. Can you imagine how uncomfortable it would be to stand like that for a lenghty period of time?

......especially if you didn't have any hair, and no clothes, either? Hmmmmm.......now there's a plot for a horror story........someone gets transferred into their computer, and then turned into a Poser character........Hmmmmmmmm.......

With the things that happen to Poser characters, that would be a......difficult experience.

Is someone a Poser purist if he uses backgrounds made in Bryce or by photographing?

'prolly not..;) I think I've done maybe 3 'pure' poser pics; 2 out of the box, and 1 on my 3rd anniversary here..;) everything else has been gumbo..;)

You might be a Poser Purist if. After seeing Janet Jacksons wardrobe malfunction you think poke-thru is the latest fashion statement. ROFLMA! Maybe you could post this over at the Bryce forum lol. They seem to dislike those that use both apps. I don't understand what's so special about this purist stuff anyway. Anyway you can improve art is the way to go. If I only used Poser 4 my renders would look like crap.

Whats pure? Lights of Zetar 4 in my gallery STARTED out in Photoshop. From the image created, I used tips from Stewer and Traveller's HDR actions and HDR SHOP to make lights for POSER. From there I set up the model and rendered in Firefly's Production mode. The final image is not touched up, but it didn't START in Poser. So, is it a Poser Pure Picture? (Say that 5 times fast :) )

Most of the images I make in Poser have Bryce backgrounds that I made in them, why would anyone care if they were combined? Is that like putting a menorah on your Christmas Tree or the Star of David around the neck of the Buddha? Maybe those kind of Purists have something in common with Fundamentalists, sounds to me like the same kind of attitudes that get holy wars started. You never know maybe the Bryce Purists will declare a Jihad on the infidels that import Poser figures or Poser Purists will put a fatwa out on those that do postwork in Photoshop. wink And you thought Salman Rushdie had problems wicked grin

Mixing religions sometimes happens in real life. I got the impression that some Hindu Indian religious authors have wasted enough of their native dried-palm-leaf paper to wallpaper the Ka`ba, on trying to treat the Qur'an as another Purana and trying to work out where Allah fits into the scheme of the Hindu gods.