I've had this issue with about three seans I've tried to do.. For one say.. I got a sea that goes on out into the horizon. It looks nice and fine.. But in the foreground I have some whales swimming. Now the water looks fine in the background as it fades off in the horizon, but in the forground with the whales, the flat calm of the water just looks fake. I wanted to add some 'waves' not the rolling ones or the kind that are crashing against something. Just some calm, faint 'hump' like waves. I tried doing it using the terrain. But I found using that, and adding it 'over' or in the flat water, gives a very usly effect. a double illusion of the models and the terrain will not blend in with the flat water. And all in all it looks just horrid. Is there a better way to do it? To have the 'flat' water only in the background, and not across the whole sean? It looks fine with one or the other.. but not both together. But to have the water fading off fare into the horizon, I need the flat water.. So.. can anyone lend me a hand?

You want to add a bump map to the water texture. If you look at a couple of the water presets you should be able to work out where to go with it. I tend to use boxes for water rather than infinite planes so I can get one texture in the closeup foreground and another for the distance.

try panning the camera back so that the water looks smaller and increase teh size of the whales? :)

Who are these people named Sean, and what are you doing to them? LOL! wanders off

or, you could have the wave terrain fade to a flat surface at the edges, then cut out a piece of the plane exactly the size of the terrain, put the terrain in the hole, give both the plane and the terrain the same water texture with the texture set to world mapping. and you might be able to create a seamless or almost seamless blend. If you can't get the hole and the terrain to match up perfectly you can always use some clonebrushing in photoshop to get rid of any visible edges.

I don't know how to add a bump map to the water that will only effect the foreground. And if I made the whales bigger.. it still wont help with the water x.x and I did have my wave terrain fade to a flat surface. I don't get what you mean cut out a peace of the plane.. How do you do that with the infinite planes?

I haven't tried it but I think you could use a boolean operation on a plane just like on any other primitive?

We're gonna need some screenshots for this one...

Almost the same. Positve plane, negative box.

What's happening with the terrains is that the rays are penetrating the terrain, and then hitting and penetrating the water plane as well. In these areas you're seeing the dual-material effects of this, and perhaps that's what's buggin ya? One way to get rid of this dual-material effect is to lower the Ray Depth to "2" in the Render Options. This means that the data rays will hit the surface and bounce one other time after the initial hit, and thus still pick up any wave-related reflections. Which is why you'd lower it to "2", instead of "1". "1" will give you black "null reflections", which are unacceptable. You can see the results in these two renders. It is the same scene, only the Ray Depth and TIR depth were lowered in the second image. I purposely didn't let the first, standard image finish rendering, as it was pointless. Just a simple workaround for you, Shaddex! Flawed in some ways, but it will also decrease your render times when working with reflective waters. Don't bother using it with refractive waters (like if you have a sand plane below your waters), as most anything underneath the water will not be rendered at all... Hope this helps.

lordstormdragon, This is an interesting subject to me as I also have had problems with foreground water and background water. I just didn't realise you could DO anything about it. But are you saying that the lower image is the right one? Only that one looks odd, it has blue water in the distance and brown water in the foreground. The upper image has blue water fore AND background. I think the method of making a hole in the plane and filling it with a water terrain won't work for me as I want my foreground water to be greatly angled for massive waves. The only way around it that I've yet used is simply to angle the front water terrains so that the infinite water plane just isn't visible at all.... Doesn't always work though - my image "3 Sailing Ships" demontrates this lack with the blackness of the infinite plane showing behind the foreground waves - (it's a night time image, or stormy at least)... Okay so nobody has actually mentioned this in any critisism so maybe I've got away with it, but it still bothers me - I know it's not quite right even if no one else sees it. I think I'll have a play with "ray depth" - if I can find it - anyway. Er, L.S.D.? What IS "TIR Depth"? And where is it? Fran

TIR is Total Internal Reflections or something like that, it's in the render options.

lordstormdragon I've tried doing what you've shown before.. but.. with the whales or anything I have in the forground.. seen though the water it makes it look like I got a double of the model when theres only one there. as if you had two and one was pushed out of line just slightly. And xenic101, now to sure I understand any of that :/

You are right, it makes no sense. I was trying to show that you could boolean with an infinite plane, but was hasty and distracted. Sorry for the confusion.

Shaddex, again, a screenshot would be very useful here. I'm certain we can figure this one out, there's nothing that can't be worked around! If you need help posting one, let me know, and I'll convert the .bmp down to .jpg for you with Riptide, a powerful file converter...

Okay here.. This is what I have.. Just for note I had to remove the 'wave' terrain cause it just looks fare to ugly casting that double blured image.. I still don't know quite how to do such a thing with out you being able to tell theres one over the water... But still the calm of the forground with out the waves just looks to fake for me. Oh ueah umm.. little extra thing.. there any way to get one of the islands to.. be up right at the horizon line with out looking to be obviously floating in mid air? @.x I had an extra one back therte but every time I moveed it up to meat the horizon line you can tell it's floating above the water.

Move the terrain back instead of up, and make it massive, it'll look small if it's far enough away.

it would be easier to tell what the problem is with the water if you could post an image showing the problem terrain.

Message edited on: 05/02/2005 06:24

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=852578

Aye, there is a much simpler fix for this scene than I thought... Simply use two or three big terrains. Forget about the plane water. Make one huge terrain (2048x2048 res) in the back, one in the middle, and one rougher, wavier one in the foreground. My image "Temple of the Damned" was done in this manner, since I couldn't keep the refractions from happening due to my skybox. Just forget all abot the plane, it's not necessary!

Hmm.. so it could work using really large terrains? I think I tried that once, it was a bit hard to get the gound to match up with the horizon.

Message edited on: 05/03/2005 07:39

Not hard at all... you simply make the terrains really big. I mean REALLY big. I mean, really, really, really big. Your back one will have to be manually (Attribute Dialogue screen) entered in, and pushed as far back as you can. In any case, you just cover up the seam with haze. See if you can find a seam in the link I posted up there. Proof is in the pudding! That scene actually contained fifteen or so water terrains, some for added spray and foam.

Ahh... okay I get it now! I was able to make the scean look exactly like that with just two. :) Now umm.. one.. small.. thing... ....is there a better way to edit the brush size if the terrain editor? I need a small brush.. but the smallest it lets me go (before it gets like a tinny dot) is to big for the waves O.o

Aye, the way to do THAT is...

Photoshop.

Or I suppose you could use Painter, PaintShopPro, or a crazy free app like ArtRage. Do NOT use MS Paint, unless you have to! And even then, lie about it and say you used Photoshop...
(smirks)

I'll post a link for ArtRage if you want it. But really, the best way to go about something like physical, geometry waves is to increase the terrain's source resolution a bunch, and erode a bit after painting your rolling waves. You may end up re-positioning your whales, expect that this will be the case. This is a good reason to use a few terrains, instead of fewer... Good luck, keep us posted!

Message edited on: 05/03/2005 10:11

I got paint shop pro 6.02 and 8.0, and photoshop 7.0 :P I think I made a good work around.. using the really tinny dot and just making a buncg of back and forth squiggles, then smoothed.. It gave me just enough of a 'chopy' water effect for it to look right.. Although there still is the issue with the moon being darker then what it's reflecting on the water.. (made a new thread about that issue) .....and the mountain pushed all the way back that turned gray even with all the settings to make it be black . might take it out and just do that in photoshop..

Aye, that looks MUCH better! I really like it, this scene has come a long way... Remember that your haze and distance fog settings will affect the terrain even more, if it's very far away. I think it looks allright, honestly. Another thing, though : splash! All things that swim create wakes and splashes... You can do this with simple, small-res terrains set to a blend-transparency texture, like one of the fogs or something. After you work out all the other issues, give that a shot. It's those extra touches of realism that make a good image great... Keep at it!

There are some splash effects in there (this is 50% it's normal size so umm.. hard to see the lil stuff :P), and what can't be added with out trouble will be added in photoshop for the finishing touches. Just need to make.. moon.. brighter.. some how!! x.x I still think the brown of the island in the bakc looks weird.. and the fog/mist are set very faint, and are all set to be a blueish color O.o Oh well.. so fare.. biggest prob, is I can't get the moon to be any brighter then that to match what it's reflecting on the water @.x

I think it does kinda depend what texture is on that distant terrain. Did you try that "Mordor Shale" for instance?

Shaddex, if yu have Photoshop, simply select the moon with a mask, and rais it's brightness!

FranOnTheEdge I did. I tried using a few textures and even setting all the diles to 0 so it would come out black. But it still remains gray @.x I just took it out.. I can add that in with Photoshop and make it look better.. lordstormdragon It's a bit hard to do that when you got the moon behind rock and trees.