Attached Link: http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2005060704040002116241&dt=20050607040400&w=RTR&co

G-rated material is more profitable than adult material. And by wide margins -- eight times more profitable, in fact.

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, your average business (website) owner is going to want to maximize their profits. And they do this by appealing to the largest crowd of customers that they possibly can. This is in the nature of a business.

If I were a website owner, I think that I'd take careful note of these matters...........

Of course, if one cares more about ideology than about getting rich -- then profit margins won't matter.

But if one is mercenary in their outlook, then this new study should speak volumes. Personally, I have no problems whatsoever with maximizing profits.

quote:

LOS ANGELES (Hollywood Reporter) - A new study set to be released Tuesday shows that family-friendly movies are more profitable than R-rated films, throwing more fuel onto the fire of the long-running debate over sex and violence in entertainment -- and whether it sells.

I'd say that it sells -- just not as well.

Interesting thought, but that is specifically about movies. The same doesn't necessarily apply to web sites. Given the history of the web and where so much of the money flows, it may even be the other way around. People approach and access the web very differently than they do movies. And, of course, movie studies look at "over the counter" takings; receipts for 'adult-oriented' material don't always show up in legitimate business surveys. I'm not saying you're wrong hee, Xen; just that it's not always accurate to generalise principles to areas where they weren't originally derived. Besides, if the only concern is "maximising profits", many people find that rather soulless and dispiriting - customers and business-people alike. I've known a few people who have had more satisfaction from doing something they love and making a living, rather than doing something they don't love and making a killing. Thanks for the link. Peace, cam :-)

They say porn on the net makes billions each year...the most profitable business on the net. That report was years ago.

I agree with your reasoning on this, cambert.....

Surprise, surprise ;).

But I still believe that as a rule -- even on the web -- there's a much larger potential customer base for "family friendly" material than there is for adult material.

I've known a few people who have had more satisfaction from doing something they love and making a living, rather than doing something they don't love and making a killing.

Yes. I've been in situations where I was extremely well paid -- and hated the job.

On the other hand, I've also been in situations where I was not-quite-so-well compensated -- but I loved the work.

shrug

One has to make one's own choices over priorities.

They say porn on the net makes billions each year...the most profitable business on the net. That report was years ago.

Porn still makes a lot of money on the web. In fact, the early growth of the internet was largely driven by easy access to porn.

But that's not as much the case as it used to be -- now that more and more of the general public are coming online.

This skews the formula in a different direction.

Once the general public get involved in something, then the porn shops tend to be regulated off to certain sections of a community -- and not directly across the street from middle-class neighborhoods.

Sure -- the porn shops still turn a profit.

But the biggest sex sites around don't make anywhere near the money that Amazon.com does -- or that ebay does.

I think the reason porn & other R stuff is more popular on the web, is because people can do it/view it in the privacy of there homes. Imagine a local minister/priest/politican....being seen in XXX rated places. Of course there are the more extreme, the ones that can't dance/sing etc. So they do it in other towns etc where they won't be caught. Myself, I have an extensive collection of Disney/Pixar or really anything animated. I find them amusing & relaxing & I love the craft whether it was done by hand drawing or 3d graphics.

Are there any "adult" oriented businesses in the Fortune 500?

It is not only a question of being profitable, there is also a certain risk involved. It is ridiculously easy to produce profitable R-rated material. It is maybe not as profitable as a successful "family friendly" product, but if you know that you are mediocre you are better of producing cheap entertainment instead of high art.
I suspect the Renderosity PTB know this and act accordingly.

This place has a little bit of both worlds, not like it's totally skin free you know? Look at the banners alone?? Totally x rated does not make for longterm profit existence unless that's all your website is catering to or into. Teletubbie restrictions are also not good for longterm profit, especially when it's an art site full of fussy poser users, it be like poser 6 having the nudity option taken away! Ouch, oops, broke a nail typing that! Be okay if this was a kiddie website, but it's not. It's a little of both worlds, like a skirt that may be really high cut, but not too high or sheer, and safe enough to wear on a date or to the office, although by some banners, there's still a major transition taking effect, safe hasn't quite found itself yet. Better go check on my supper..

If your only interest is profit what are you doing here? For maximizing your profit you have the oil industry, the banks, the stock market, the medicine industry, the drugs (Afghanistan's poppies are nice), the weapon industry and so on, of course none of them are "family friendly".

First- I AM from Grand Rapids, a decidedly conservative local. And we all know the Dove Foundation. A major sponsor is Zandervans Publishing. An exclusively christian publishing house. As with any bias report there are flaws in process. The trick is to understand them. "...based on Kagan's estimates of proprietary corporate information" get it!

I've heard a statistic that The Matrix Reloaded was the first-ever R-rated movie to make it into the top 20 money making films of all time.

It's amusing to see how Drudge links propagate. :-) "For those of you with burning questions concerning Renderosity's switch to more 'family friendly' or 'professional' fare......here's a link for you." There has been no such switch. Family-unfriendly merchandise continues to be among the biggest-selling in the RMP. The site managers continue to award "adult" content providers with spotlight articles and accolades. The recent TOS restrictions were a common-sense matter that had nothing to do with sales or professionalism per se. While I'm not a major critic of Renderosity or how the RMP is run, there's definitely room for improvement as regards professionalism related to the RMP. However, because great improvements have been made in the past year, that's all I care to say. "Personally, I have no problems whatsoever with maximizing profits." Well, yeah, most of us are card-carrying capitalists, but in the context of membership at this site, many of us have aspirations aside from the mercantile mindset that many "old timers" claim has made the 3D community less community-like. More is not always more. We know what it takes to get high numbers of view "hits" in the galleries, for example, but is that what those with "true" artistic aspirations really want? There are some people in the shallower threads at DAZ Forums who "award" one another with obnoxious blinky emoticons for reaching astronomical posting numbers. OK, so John Doe has 2000 postings to the forum ... how many of them have anything of substance or value about them in the context of the forums' stated purpose? I think people will know what I'm getting at here. While this study and the rather obvious "spin" that some in the media are putting on it are interesting, I don't really see how it relates to Renderosity, given that the implied axiom doesn't really relate here, and is partially disproven when you consider what portion of the best-selling items are "adult." (I sort of hate using that word to mean what we know it means, because so many of those items are so childishly marketed.) As regards art, I prefer significant content to obviously populist overtures, although a balance can clearly be struck. As regards 3D products, I like a bit of everything, including the most innocent and now and then a touch of the naughty. Most content doesn't really fall onto such a spectrum. "Useful" is probably the best qualifier. :-)

G-rated material is more profitable than adult material. And by wide margins -- eight times more profitable, in fact.

Well, that's fine for Disney and Pixar, but Renderosity is not even CLOSE to G-Rated. Saying this place is "family friendly" is ridiculous, with the amount of nudity (and badly done nudity at that) in the galleries and in the store (since older products don't have to conform to policy changes).

Yes, there are things in place to make it somewhat more appropriate for younger viewers, but it's not family friendly any more than the neighborhood pub. Sure you can take kids there, but it's not really meant for kids, it's not really suitable for kids, and it's not a place where most parents would want to take their kids (and certainly not let them go unsupervised).

And speaking as someone who has a lot of websites, I can tell you that the one that gets the most traffic (despite requiring registration to view the gallery) is my erotic art site. In fact, I believe that site gets the most traffic of any site on our entire server.

At the moment, I'd say Renderosity is rated M for Mature Audiences, as it includes violence, nudity, adult themes, strong language, and sexual references (that's using the Australian rating system). By the U.S. system, this site is probably R-rated. If you actually use the nudity filters, it's probably still R-rated for the violence, adult themes, strong language, and sexual references.

bonni Message edited on: 06/07/2005 19:51

Personally, if you want a all-age-friendly site, you're going to have to start one from the ground up. So let's do that. Name it "renderkids.com" or somesuch. Sell textures on it that are by policy pre-clothed with something that looks like underwear (or at least has not a hint of genitalia, like female nipples and etc.) Allow no nudity, and even put up a "template" texture (with pre-painted areas covering whatever naughty bits you won't allow) that artists and merchants alike must adhere to, period. Put in lots and lots of tutorial sections, and re-write 'em for different age groups (say, a 6-10yr section, 11-13yr section, a 13-17yr section, an adult (but still "G"-Rated only) section...) Separate the galleries also, but not by genre or proggie type; do it by age group. Hold contests once a month or so for prizes, broken down by age group, or have it as a parent/child contest, where both parent and child have to build it together. I mean, c'mon, with as much money as Barbie dolls have made over the years, and w/ DAZ|Studio still running usefully on a low-end PIII (which means that the cheap and old computers that kids use are still useful for this), I don't see why it shouldn't make a tidy income from MP sales if Xeno's report has any weight to it, and the prices are reasonable. Speaking of money, you can even remove that from being a source of trouble where kids are concerned. Maybe have the parents buy blocks of "ArtBucks" tokens for the site at the rate of $1.00 USD = One "Artbuck", which then lets the kids spend those "ArtBucks" in the site's MP (The merch gets 50% or more of the cut at a rate of one "ArtBuck" = $1.00 USD.) ...there. I've basically set up a fully usable idea for anyone with the cojones to do it. If you make a zillion dollars off the idea, all I want is credit on the site somewhere ("...this site is dedicated to that poopyhead Penguinisto who said I didn't have the grapes for it" will do just fine as a salutation.) I don't want a dime from the idea unless I decide to build a site like it myself before anyone else does. IOW, the idea as presented is hereby publicly posted for anyone's consumption. This way, those who hate the creepy ol' "pornography" posted here have a clean and safe place to go, and those who can't stand "busibodies" and "crusader" types can stay away from it. Nobody's ego gets hurt, and we can all render what we want. Fair enough? Now let's see someone prove/disprove the whole premise once and for all, shall we? :) /P

How many kids do have interest in art?, tell me how many do you know.

Oh I know of several, Kawecki... I was interested in art growing up, my daughter carries the same interest... Really, do you honestly have to ask THAT question.

We just don't think the study is in any way relevant. Sure, G-rated movies make more. If that weren't true, it'd be obvious. The Dark Brothers would own California and Florida, rather than Disney. However, within the Poserverse... well... see... there are reasons that in mainstream entertainment kids' stuff makes more money. But in the Poserverse a lot of that doesn't matter. Sure, some people have copies of Poser for their kids and their kids beg them for the latest DAZ stuff, but those are usually at least ten-year-old kids. How often does anyone have to deal with a toddler screaming 'Mommmmmmy! I wanna Koshiiiini! An' the new hair for Vickkyyyy!' If they did, we guaranty that V3 sales would pale in comparison to Koshini's, and that Zot would be one of the best sellers ever -- really, think about it.

How many kids do have interest in art?, tell me how many do you know. I've been drawing for as long as I can remember. I can still vividly remember drawing pictures in kindergarten. I bet if computers were available back then I would have totally gotten into Poser.

To supplement some of the things already stated, I would like to point out one thing.

Some people would prefer to be able to vist Renderosity from their work computer. Like it or not, not all bosses tolerate nudes or sexually oriented graphics on their computers - even bosses who are professional designers and illustrators and would otherwise heartily endorse their employees growth through participation in our community. Whether they should or shouldn't is irrelevant - the fact is that some don't.

Some people would also like to be able to visit this site while their kids are in the same room with them. Computer time and/or privacy may be limited for some reason unknown to us.

I suppose those people's right to participate in this community by visiting is less important than other's right to participate in this community by posting nudes (or whatever).

Wait a minute. Maybe I have that backwards. Maybe the right to post nudes (or whatever) is less important than the right to vist the community.

Or maybe we could just compromise.

Who am I kidding.

Why would anyone do that?????

Rendo's goal may simply be to appear not adult, rather than completely "family friendly."

Hey Deecey, when are you coming to Texas on your book promotional tour? Bring your hubby and we'll do TexMex and Marquiritas!

Message edited on: 06/08/2005 00:13

Tex Mex and margaritas, huh?? Ooooh, that sounds SO tempting! I have relatives down in the Plano area too. I really should get out there one of these days. 8-)

Rendo's goal may simply be to appear not adult, rather than completely "family friendly." Then their admins shouldn't use phrases like "we try to keep it family friendly" and YES, I have seen an admin say just that, and more than once. And for what it's worth, R-Rated is still "adult" even if it's not hardcore porn. I understand about the accessing from work and with various persons in the room that you don't want looking over your shoulder. Perfectly valid, no argument from me. I also have no problem with having to tick the "nudity" flag or whatever, that's fine, too. THIS thread started out with commentary about G-Ratings and how they outsell everything else, which is fine in Hollywood, and would be fine on a website that was intended to be G-Rated. On THIS site, however, which is not pornographic but is age-restricted (you have to be fifteen to sign up here, or you used to), you're not going to get anything close to "family friendly", any more than you would in a pub. bonni

A kid can watch ten times the same movie without any problem, perhaps if Renderosity became a "family friendly" site one kid would buy ten times the same Koshini character, $$$$$$.. profit... $$$$$$... profit and more profit, long and prosper life to the Ferrenghies!

Attached Link: http://trekguide.com/rules.htm

Umm, one problem: "Some people would prefer to be able to vist Renderosity from their work computer." WTF? Now the academic lifestyle (which sadly ends soon for me) allows me to do it, and graphic artists certainly have a justification for it, but I suspect that most folks don't have the luxury of surfing 3d art sites from work without having to steal it first in time and/or bandwidth from their employer. Seriously, though - when I start my new position next month, I'll be working for a place that specifically lives and breathes 3D artwork. However, I'll be too busy getting actual work done to simply hang out and surf Rendo all day long :/ /P

I'll be working for a place that specifically lives and breathes 3D artwork. However, I'll be too busy getting actual work done to simply hang out and surf Rendo all day long :/ [trans.] "Can't hang around this place, I've got real 3D work to do." Now, that's what I would call an index of Renderosity's worth in its members' minds. Thanks, Peng; this smile will last all afternoon :-)

"WTF? "

Over the years, I've read a number of people's posts who state they do that. I do that as well depending on what specific tasks I'm working on. Right now I'm burning CDs for my clients.

I suppose I could just stare at the progress bar... I suppose I should make it explicitly clear that I am authorized to do so.

Message edited on: 06/08/2005 10:42

@ Peng --

A kid's-only 3D site isn't a bad idea. But I won't take you up on it -- I'm busy enough already.

As others have already indicated, I don't think that Poser is an app which holds great appeal for children. But that misses the point of the study.

In the past, I've worked at places where I could not visit Renderosity without being accused of visiting a porn site from work. There are certain other sites that I wouldn't dream of accessing from the office.......but Rendo?

Renderosity (I believe) has a goal of shedding its rep of being regarded as a porn site by some. Of course, this won't work for those that regard nudity -- any nudity at all -- as porn. But I will posit that Renderosity's moves away from the Old Rendo format are doing nothing but increasing their business.

This -- in spite of many predictions to the contrary.

Sure, the term "family friendly" doesn't put me in mind of Rendo. IMO -- this isn't a website for kids.

But is Renderosity a website that one can reasonably access from the average workplace? And thus maximize the potential customer base among professionals and business types?

That study on movies, biased or not, provides hints that cannot merely be shrugged off.

Like I said, I agree that Poser isn't a kid's toy. Nor would I want it to be.

But for a "general interest" website like Renderosity -- a site which isn't catering to only one segment of the 3D market (unlike niche websites - like true porn sites) --- Renderosity is doing themselves nothing but long-term good by taking the kinds of moves that they have.

A business must shape themselves to appeal to their target audience.

In this case -- I believe that Renderosity has come close to achieving a balance between customers with widely conflicting demands and tastes.

That's quite an act to see.

Like I said, I agree that Poser isn't a kid's toy. Nor would I want it to be.

No.......it isn't a kid's toy.

It's a toy for people that have logged a little more time on the calendar.......people with the $$$$$$$'s to spend on a pastime.

I don't know that I'd visit here if I was an accountant. However, as an Art Director in a video production house that professionally uses many of the tools and techniques discussed here I find this place quite informational, and even inspirational. Of course, I don't spend all my time in the Poser forum. I've found a wealth of coolness and knowledge in some of the other forums so I visit them as well.

I find this place quite informational, and even inspirational.

Agreed. As do I.

Interesting point about the banner ads. I think it's still a golden rule of advertising that "sex sells" and agencies are still trying to get as much flesh and suggestive dialogue past the censors as they ever were. I'm reminded of the "Cadbury's Flake" story in Jerry Della Femina's book From Those Wonderful Folks Who Gave You Pearl Harbor ;)

Ever since that debate regarding the people who "can't surf Rendo from their work because is porn" a question pop in my mind and want to ask it here:

Does this happens as well in europe and other countries or is just an american thing?

Finally want to add that I do think that despite of being and interesting survey the G vs. R does not apply here because of the very nature of the medium, the movies are by definiton a group-family oriented activity and the internet is per se (as today) an individual-personal experience.
Message edited on: 06/08/2005 23:37

Does this happens as well in europe and other countries or is just an american thing? Recently someone in the UK was sacked from their job for surfing this site while at work, and I've seen a post from someone in Australia who can't surf here anymore from work as their work firewall blocks this site due to content. Personally, I will surf the forums from work, but rarely the galleries.

The main problem outside the U.S. and members of the Commonwealth about the use of internet at work, is not the content but the use of internet for personal use. Many companies don't allow that you do other things than your job, when it is allowed nothing is wrong with Renderosity as it is.

I know of, through friends, American companies which are extremely restrictive on employee use of the internet, even during lunch breaks. One of the problems is that the companies which offer access control software, either family use or corporate, tend towards the extremes of censorship. I've not a major problem with them blocking porn, but their definitions can be rather too wide. People may recall that, when Renderosity tightened the rules on images of children, a character similar to Mowgli in Disney's animation of "The Jungle Book" would have been banned. Renderosity realised that problem and adjusted their rules. The porn-blockers don't seem to be that smart. Want to find out about breast cancer? Or you're searching for pictures of fortifications and typed in "breastworks"? That sort of dumb mistake is one of the big problems. Now, I don't think the pre-teen market for Poser is that big, and if I wanted to sell a version for that market I'd drop the naked figures. And "Family Friendly" is a dumb term to use. It's been politicised, and it's about making it safe for the small kids. These people are playing all sorts of dirty tricks with words, and stretching definitions of children out of all sensible shape. I just wonder what they made of "Team America". Puppets are for kids, right?

well said AntoniaTiger :)

The porn-blockers don't seem to be that smart. Want to find out about breast cancer? Or you're searching for pictures of fortifications and typed in "breastworks"? My husband used to live and work at a residential college which employed a type of blocking system that looked for words and blocked them. He was the sysadmin (although he didn't set up the filter; he had no choice in the matter) and would frequently get complaints from people who couldn't access perfectly legitimate materials for one reason or another, and he'd have to manually unblock the site so people could get to it. The most ridiculous one that I personally saw was a theology student looking up the online version of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, which is one of the best known concordances of the Bible (King James version, anyway). The filter wouldn't allow access to it, and my husband unblocked it but couldn't figure out why it was blocked. Turns out that Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, if you're a really dumb filter, has the word "sex" in the middle... strongSEXhaustiveconcordance Not really on topic, but Antonia's examples reminded me of this one and I thought I'd share (although, of course, you have to admit, the Bible really IS full of all kinds of extraordinary violence, sex - some of it pretty perverted IMHO -, adult themes, drinking, the list just goes on... ;-) bonni

My hubby works for Verizon Wireless & this site is blocked and is labeled as porn. Even if I give him a direct link to a cool pic that has no nudity whatsoever..ie a nature pic it is still blocked. Poser Pros and Daz is blocked as well.

Remember that Poser is an evil thing and is forbiden in Saudi Arabia.

...and remember too, that the Saudi Prince in charge of customs is reputed to have a really world-class porn collection of confiscated items. (I spent a month in Riyadh one weekend. "Ladies and getlemen, welcome to Saudi Arabia. The local time is 780 A.D.") OK, it's OT. But worth a comment. Fetter

Remember that princes, kings, presidents, priests, pop star idols, etc are not ordinary mortal people, though the rules don't applies to them.