I didn't say leave the community in the dark at all (and previous threads on the similarities were already posted) - but there was information that sixus had due to their access to private forums about this being looked into. The issue wasn't being ignored or let be as the orignal post implies - that is what I have a problem with, the implication that nothing was being done and no one was looking into it when they knew better. It was intentionally misleading in that way.

There were ulterior motives for this - they basically stated so in their first post. Their comment in regards to "not knowing we were breaking the EULA" Whatever...., this figure was contracted out that means that in this case (and most know I'm no big 'rosity fan - heck I wasn't even planning on supporting Renda) 'rosity was equally if not more unaware - if there is indeed a violation of the DAZ EULA.

There were previous posts about Renda and V3 already on this board. So if there were concerns those overlay pictures would have been enough for most to begin looking into it. I am also not saying that modle should have been released in the condition that she was - nope no way!

Message edited on: 06/29/2005 08:28

im at least as interested to see this issue unfold as any of you, and far more angry than most, but many of you should be ashamed of your behavior. im talking about the 150 'passes the popcorn' and ' Do doo be-do-do be-do-do be-do-do be-do-do-doodle do do do-doo do!' type posts in this thread. you sound like a bunch of preschoolers. grow up, FFS.

Er, where did anything Sixus say show up in a private forum? It's all stuff that is, to my knowledge, stuff that's been said in the public Poser forums.

"It will be handled today after an investigation. Clint" see? Da Man in action! Swift decisiveness, total control, absolute confidence. Puppy dogs and butterflies everywhere. Oh! LOok!! Sunflowers!!!!

Bookmark

"im talking about the 150 'passes the popcorn' and ' Do doo be-do-do be-do-do be-do-do be-do-do-doodle do do do-doo do!' type posts in this thread. you sound like a bunch of preschoolers. grow up, FFS." You need a mommy very very badly. Sense of humor and an appreciation for the importance of levity in situations such as this would also help. Not much, but it'd help. Muppet hater...

khrys - my point was that due to his access and comments in a private forum sixus knew it was being looked into and yet made it appear that it wasn't and there is a comment up there that was posted 30 minutes after they knew what the explanatin was - but it sure did make it look like a "conspiracy" to cover something up. This also wasn't posted publically until it came up in the private forums - implying they hadn't even looked before that.

This is quite tragic, really - especially after all of the discussion of late about the quality of products, the lack of concern for copyright, and other issues that were brought forth by Pengy before he found his new job. It's mind-boggling that this happened.

If Renderosity is able to salvage their reputation and their marketplace after this, I hope this serves as a bit of a wake up call to concerns that many have placed as the marketplace grew larger and quality items became harder to find. Hopefully, Renderosity will think twice about each item they put in the store, and will put into place some stronger quality control and infringement prevention procedures that are adhered to. And basically, what that means is either the QA testing staff has to increase, or the number of products accepted has to decrease.

I hope things work out for the good of the community on this one.

Message edited on: 06/29/2005 09:01

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It is absolutely certain that things will work out for the good of the community. This is neither the end of all things, nor even the end of renderosity. Assuming the worst -- that the owners are sued in civil court into nigh on oblivion (something exceptionally unlikely to happen, despite a history of becoming unimaginably rigid at the merest whiff of their potentially being in the wrong) -- the practical value of the assets that make up the renderosity site is too great for anyone with half a nose for business to turn down. So, even then, it would exist. But lets assume the median level of trouble for a moment. Renda is pulled. Rosity looks bad. Merchants flee in droves. The Top 30 suddenly have their eyes bug out and run away. A diaspora of that nature would benefit the community to a greater degree than the continuation of the status quo. Growth requires it, and communities which do not grow stagnate and die. There is, in the end, no bad here for the Community itself. For individuals, or perhaps for small groups within the overall community, yeah, there will be some price to pay. Change does that. Regardless of the catalyst that bring it about. If damage is done, it will be to the reputation of the ownership and administration of this site, and potentially to the owners on a financial basis as well as to the contractors who they would be wise to recover their investments from. All of those people will recover from such, to the extent that such is possible given those reputations at present. There are alternative sites, stores, and marketplaces -- for both skilled and beginner merchants, end users, and blowhards. The niche that renderosity fills is neither critical nor, in the long term, the most ideal one for the marketplace. As the community grows and increases, the need for decentralization will also grow -- too many rats in a confined space will force them to feed on each other. People, interestingly enough, respond the same way. PArt of the reson "blow-ups" such as this one seem so significant is because of that very centralization. Indeed, it is one of the reasons that I started what essentially is deemed a competitor. Life, and Poser, will go on. Inevitably. But golly gee willikers -- this is just too darn hard to resist, ain't it? tucks a Lily behind her ear and grins at the butterflies

"You need a mommy very very badly. Sense of humor and an appreciation for the importance of levity in situations such as this would also help." it wasnt directed at you. perhaps i have more a more refined sense of humor, but i find nothing funnny about reading 'passes the popcorn' for the three millionth time in these forums, nor about something as retardedly pointless as '' Do doo be-do-do be-do-do be-do-do be-do-do-doodle do do do-doo do!''. if youre going to crawl out of the woodwork to post in this thread, at least make your post worthwhile reading. as for levity, i think im handling this pretty well. many of the posters in this thread havent spent a penny on renda -- hell they dont even shop at renderosity. i wasted weeks of my time on this bloody thing and the way things are going im going to be left out in the cold along with nine other initial content providers who did absolutely nothing wrong.

Eh...if R'osities reputation is ruined, then it will just leave room open for daz to buy it up and re-name it as their new "Special Interest" section LOL (j/k)

Bookmarking to stay current with gossip

I have my own thoughts on all this but I think I will just keep them to myself but I am intrested in knowing who was behind this..because if there is coppyright infringment who is to say they may have more with other things they have made? just my two cents worth, but come on, this was a Rendo project it should have been tested completly and ppl should have been listened to when they said it was not ready yet... I have spent the last several hours looking over this forum and I hardly ever speak in the forums as my husband tends to think I would light a fire up many asses on my thoughts of things But......there are alot of ppl who will suffer from this, if after this so called "investigation" takes place, and what about all the customers who have already purchased this? my heart truely goes out for all the innocent ppl that had to get involved into this mess, hopefully in the future things will get looked into more closely, but for now I will sit here and wonder will any of us ever know the real truth? or will it be covered up like so many other things....sorry just speaking my mind and trying to understand how any of this could have happened,well I will shut up now....well one more thing sometimes there has to be a little Humor in the mists of things to this degree, I for one am glad this all got brought out into the publics eye....as for the do be do's and the popcorn and other desserts listed above hey I will gladly throw in the muffins of all flavors and any pies, after all we must stay sane somehow......

anyhow thats all I can say,

In all liklihood whoever created teh modle only will answer to 'rosity, it's not uncommon for their to be an NDA regarding creator information in these situations. So event hough 'rosity may want to say who did it they simply can't or they risk breech of contract on their end which will bite 'em in the butt in resolving this issue.

"it wasnt directed at you." But it was, sir, and most directly. I am specifically responsible for both instigating and perpetuating the "something as retardedly pointless" performance of the mahna mahna song. But then, that more refined sense of humor may not be quite refined enough to catch the subtle absurdity and the incisive sarcasm in herent in using that song in this thread, specifically, or, to a greater degree, in the poser community in general. "...i wasted weeks of my time on this bloody thing and the way things are going im going to be left out in the cold along with nine other initial content providers who did absolutely nothing wrong." Your whine is justified -- your time and effort have value and you had a reasonable expectation of return on those investments. And, given your general history, I'd have to agree -- you are handling it incredibly well. But you could still lighten up a tad. Narcissus? no, wait -- ah-ha! Bluebells!!!

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Ultimately it will be the merchants and customers that have purchased Renda that suffer. Me, I couldn't justify the cost especially when I was less than impressed with the product. I still shop here and have bought items from Blackhearted in particular...(Granted not at this store...) I think this whole situation gives lie to what I was told in the Customer Support forums about a month or so ago. I was told that Renderosity does have testing standards in place to insure that an item works right. The fact that this item was pushed out fast makes that statement patently false and in fact supports the call for better testing standards. I am not gonna comment on motives. There is more going on than we, the average consumer here, know. I am sorry that merchants like Blackhearted are going to be hurt by someone else's dishonesty.

You can have the Narcissus and the bluebells, I'll take a few Hyacinth. (They're so pretty when they're in bloom!) Natolli, as for the testing standards... Renderosity has decent standards, so far as I'm concerned, for OTHER people's products. As long as it doesn't crash the program and has all the nessisary files, does what it says, it'll pass. They don't judge the quality, they just make sure it works like it should. (Of course, occasionally we get a newbie tester who flunks an item because THEY don't know what to do...) For their OWN stuff, they seem to force it out as quick as they can, like a group of pit mechanics shouting 'movemovemove' at each other. I would personally be ashamed to have my name attatched to the base Renda figure. I could list, at length, the issues with the figure but there's no real point, as they've been hashed and rehashed by many people, including one or two of the merchants who were notified in advance of her release. I do know, however, that I will be a little more careful of 'Flagship' characters. This is the second flagship character to have some sort of scandal surrounding it. While it's not the tester's fault that Renda fits V3 stuff so well, it IS their fault that she was approved with those nasty joint problems and the mesh issues she has. (Have you ever seen a woman's breasts with deep notches in them?) Blackhearted, I'm sorry your time and effort on that beautiful morph were for naught. I truly do admire your Renda girl, because you took dog turds and turned them into a super model. Unfortunately, when you choose to support ANY figure, you're taking a risk, either that the product won't sell or that the product will be removed when there are copyright problems. :(

They don't judge the quality, they just make sure it works like it should. It is my hope that quality is also considered in the future.

I am sorry that merchants like Blackhearted are going to be hurt by someone else's dishonesty i am curious as to why....when just outwardly looking at v3 and renda, the similarities are so obvious, why didn't one of these merchants look just a little deeper, like putting the meshes on top of one another and comparing. seems to me that renda looks so much like v3 that it would be common sense to make sure she was not a derivative before starting on weeks of work. one evening spent in comparison might have saved a whole lot of work, especially with the state of poserdom of late. after all, v3 is pretty ugly. why would anyone in their right mind make another ugly v3 from scratch if they weren't cutting corners?

Agreed, Poppi. The similarities were quite obvious, even at first visual glance.

Un-bookmarking, I got the general idea of this thread oh, about 303 posts ago. :) SnowS

Hehehehehe

If Renda and V3 are so close, maybe the addon products could be converted to V3 addon products?

"Unfortunately, when you choose to support ANY figure, you're taking a risk, either that the product won't sell or that the product will be removed when there are copyright problems. :(" which is why ill stick to supporting daz figures from now on. while on not a huge fan of their sales practices (jacking up the SP3 price and making V3 free while i was working on Irina didnt make me too happy), and im vocally opposed to their mundane default bodies, they have been a pillar of integrity in the poser community. while i still maintain that i dont think Clint is to blame for any of this -- they contracted the work out to someone, and its easily understandable that they could miss all of this stuff, to a layman this could all be pretty confusing -- but somehow i dont think anything like this would have happened with a Daz release. its a shame we all have to suffer because of one dipshit's laziness/deceitfulness, like a bunch of dominoes. id love to know who it was that did the rigging, but i have a feeling its never going to be revealed except behind the scenes between RO and Daz.

I think we have reached the point in Poserdom where we don't need any more copies of anything. There are already an overabundance of Vicky and Mike figures and variations thereof. There is so much of the same old, same old. We need diversity. We need variation. And if we do have the privelege of getting wonderful new stuff like Apollo Maximus or other figures that are equal or better, or innovative, we need to support them. It only benefits all of us to do so. Problem is, diversity doesnt sell. And that's the bottom line. We've had tons of diverse characters: LaRoo, Koshini, Staci, Sara -- how many of those get merchant support? Damn few, because the merchants want stuff that will sell to the widest possible market -- and that is the Vicky crowd. You want diversity? Do like I'm doing -- learn to model your own stuff and say to hell with this nonstop nonsense.

gives gabe a valium (see you say im always mean to you ,im not) (bookmarking) and ironhbear ur a baaad baaaad puddytat.

Bookmark

Ahhh, but Poppi merchants did voice those concerns and were ignored. I'm going to unbookmark as well.

I do model clothing, but there are really only a handful of folks in the Poser community that can model their own figures. Setting up JP's for an original figure is a lot more complex than reusing and tweaking already-created JP's for clothing. Diversity WILL sell if people commit themselves to supporting figures that they like. But a large part of the success of an original figure also has to do with the quality of a figure as well. Is the topography of the model good? Is it UV mapped well? Does it take textures well? Are the facial expressions realistic? Are there too many or too few polygons? Are there too many or too few material zones? Does it pose well? Is the vendor committed to supporting it? Previous figures have failed because one or more of these issues haven't been met.

"You want diversity? Do like I'm doing -- learn to model your own stuff and say to hell with this nonstop nonsense. " Or stop putting what sells ahead of what's fun to make. Part of the reason tht little site I'm involved with got started was to specifically not make stuff like everyone else was making at the time. Our stuff might not sell umpteen bazillion units at once, but it does sell, and it keeps on selling. Because it is not the flavor of the moment, but something original and unique and well crafted. Its something that pervades the business -- and makes for a bad business model. Hyacinths!!! Yes!!! Hya -- Lordfox!

You want diversity? Do like I'm doing -- learn to model your own stuff and say to hell with this nonstop nonsense lol...that's exactly what i've been about. in fact, i'm starting to think my own models, some anyway, are way cool :*)(it's called getting the old "spin quads" down pat.)

Having paid the $24.95 for the morphs and experienced the difficulties in making them work and now finding out they morphs are pirated, I guess you could say I'm not very happy with the having wasted my money! I think it would be appropriate for Renderosity to make good the expenditure with either a gift certificate or in store credit. Jan (gr8g8s)

Blackhearted, The 'sity has to own up to the blame (if any) on this too. They're supposed to be doing testing before release. The .cr2 stuff is something most anyone with a little .cr2 experience should have caught (it is obvious from the above posts). The 'sity should have had a deep review of something as important as a new figure released by them as the flagship figure for the company. And the obvious similarities to V3's design should have gotten the lots of attention, even if they were completly different in verts. If Ford released a car that looked so much like a Toyota that it was hard to tell the difference on an overlay, Ford would be sued until their eyes bled. This does make Mehndi's problems on her product over at PP seem pretty minor in comparison though.

"...and now finding out they morphs are pirated..." You misread. The morphs that work with Renda ARE NOT pirated. Some of the joint controlled morphs that are buried int he cr2 of victoria 3 were found to be present in the cr2. They don't affect your efforts or the Renda figure's usability in any way.

It's going to get really creepy if member 'Renda' shows up in this thread to defend herself...

In Poser Heaven somewhere, Alexa and Renda are looking down smiling.... BTW anyone remember whatever the first big copyright infringement issue like this was, and how long ago it was?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2188300

ewwwww -- so much for my pretty nasturtiums in the shade, Jade...

"i am curious as to why....when just outwardly looking at v3 and renda, the similarities are so obvious, why didn't one of these merchants look just a little deeper, like putting the meshes on top of one another and comparing. seems to me that renda looks so much like v3 that it would be common sense to make sure she was not a derivative before starting on weeks of work." i cant speak for 9 others, but i can tell you why i didnt. i dont have time: ive got a lot on my plate with work, renovating my home, unpacking, getting my car fixed, etc. i looked at it, i was disapppointed with the similarity to V3 and the mapping, and so i immediately set out to remorph the character into something more like what i envisioned it should be. does every merchant who creates a character, morph, texture, etc for a figure first take that figure into notepad and start cross-examining it down to the decimal place with all other figures it could be similar to? no. in fact, even though 1900 merchants got renda for free, and im sure several hundred purchased her, this thread itself wouldnt have come about unless rebekah posted information she gleaned from an ongoing investigation in the merchant forum - and it has been obvious that she had an agenda to begin with. people with agendas make time to pore over CR2s looking for incriminating evidence, simple working people are far too damn busy to. so yeah, im sure i should have looked into it. so should everyone else who worked on her. hindsight is 20/20. but if people are going to start expecting merchants to investigate every single item they product content for then our productivity is going to drop and our prices are going to go up. its just not practical. i took it on faith that the work was original. ive learned my lesson. " If Renda and V3 are so close, maybe the addon products could be converted to V3 addon products?" the meshes are completely different, and so is the UV mapping. which means anyone who created morphs, or textures for her, is SOOL. perhaps someone who created clothing for the default body can tweak it a bit with some morphs and re-release it for V3, but that doesnt help me since i just finished modelling a set for my Redux body last night, which is totally different. nothing for us to do but sit here and see how it unfolds, and what the final verdict and resolution will be. if its just the CR2 and the JPs/morphs/rigging, then they could possibly get someone else to re-rig renda. if this is done, the add-on products will still work.

Blackhearted, You are so right that the merchants are too busy. I barely have time to keep the house clean as it is, and I've got a pretty small store. One thing you might try though: See if your morphs can be transfered to V3 using the Tailor. It might just work. That may get you something out of this. Question to everyone: Has anyone actually paid for Renda? The first threads about her problems started almost immediatly after she went on sale. I know a lot of the vendors got her a day before from the 'sity for free, but how many actually paid for her?

"BTW anyone remember whatever the first big copyright infringement issue like this was, and how long ago it was?" The first one that really got nasty and ugly and stuff was ByteMeOK, here in the copyright forum nearly twors years back. However, this is not an issue of copyright. Not at all, and not in any way.

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Well it was at least a thought.. clothing artists might at least be able to recoup their time. Probably best to just "shelve" it in your mind for now, BlackHearted, and work on the next product for another character. Idle hands are the devil's work.. LOL!

Some of the joint controlled morphs that are buried int he cr2 of victoria 3 were found to be present in the cr2. They don't affect your efforts or the Renda figure's usability in any way. Sorry if I misunderstood. But I AM having trouble with the some of the morphs not working. I haven't injected everything but the head morphs don't work at all, you can change facial features but not head shape, when you try to change height of the eyes in the face, the eyesockets move but the eyeballs don't. I save and injected CR2 so I wouldn't have to re-inj and when I re-opened Renda, NONE of the morphs previously injected worked. There's obviously a problem with them and I'm not as savvy about meshes as some of you all are, I'm still relatively new to Poser. But there does seem to be an illegality issue and there definitely is a morph function issue. Jan

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buzzz ynsaen wrong answer ;-) There were others before that and a few that were big, usually around steffyZ's textures though...

<u>Poppi</u> - ***I am sorry that merchants like Blackhearted are going to be hurt by someone else's dishonesty

i am curious as to why....when just outwardly looking at v3 and renda, the similarities are so obvious, why didn't one of these merchants look just a little deeper, like putting the meshes on top of one another and comparing. seems to me that renda looks so much like v3 that it would be common sense to make sure she was not a derivative before starting on weeks of work. one evening spent in comparison might have saved a whole lot of work, especially with the state of poserdom of late.***

Don't feel too sorry for them, Poppi. It was made clear in an earlier thread that Renda was uncomfortably close to V3's shape, odeathoflife even posted damning comparison pics. And someone else (I forget who) mention that Vicki's bones worked just fine with Renda, in fact better than her own. That alone should have set every merchant's spider-sense tingling.

So every merchant knew the score from the start. That some decided to go ahead and create products for Renda anyway is their own fault and they deserve whatever it costs them. The truth was right there for anyone not blinded by greed. They went in with their eyes wide open and anyone who says otherwise is a damned liar. There are victims, but not among the merchants.

"One thing you might try though: See if your morphs can be transfered to V3 using the Tailor. It might just work. That may get you something out of this." the only reason i decided last night to do just that is to prepare for someone trying to rip my work off in such a manner. i dont have enough faith in the tailor to get everything up to my standards, especially since the meshes are quite different. when you do a full body morph like that, even though you may try to shape it into what you want, you are still influenced by the topology of the mesh. there are some areas especially where you just kindof have to go with the flow, theres only so much you can do when there are either too few polys in an area or they are laid out in a certain manner. you can drag polys in from surrounding areas (and i did so in several places), but if you take it too far you get texture stretching or even joint issues. anyways, my point is that while you could transfer a morph from V3 to SP3 because they use the same underlying mesh, in the case where the meshes are radically different its better to just do a full body morph from scratch tailored to that specific mesh. itll end up much smoother and 'flow' better with the mesh. regardless of the fact that their bodies have a similar default shape, the renda and V3 meshes are pretty night and day - believe me, that i did notice after spending days morphing the darn thing. its a shame, because i was pleased with how she turned out. but ill do something better for V3 from scratch. cheers, -gabriel