What E-ON can learn from MS Flight Simulator... (The software uses Geo-Referenced model data inside its really HUGE simulated 3D world.) **************************************************

This is a mini-tutorial on Geo-Referenced Terrains
and how they and SHP (Shape) files COULD become a
major NEW Feature for Vue 6 Infinite. This would be
a Professional level feature that would be a really
great Money-Maker for Infinite owners who use the
software for Professional Level illustrations and
animations. It would ALSO be a GREAT new tool for
3D Model Makers once they understand all the neat
things that can be done with Geo-Referenced Terrains.

Model-makers- as example- could create a bridge model
of the San Fran Golden Gate. Once purchased and downloaded.
the model would IMMEDIATELY plop onto a California
Bay Area Terrain at the CORRECT SCALE and FITTED EXACTLY
in place! ---A Statue of Liberty model- immediately
places and scales itself to its PRECISE location in
New York harbor! Terrain Referencing would also allow
very PRECISE PRE-SET camera views of the model to be
provided, as well as ACCURATE lighting SUN angles based
upon REAL Calender dates and times of day.

Vue "On-The-Fly Decimation" Models? Vue has Object Substitution and Model Decimation- but what about doing this DYNAMICALLY- On The Fly... *****************************************************

One very interesting idea that E-On, -or future sellers of models at Cornucopia3D, -could learn from Flight Simulator is the concept of Level of Detail (LOD) modeling. Basically this would be like Vue's Model Object Substitution and Object Decimation features but combined into a single dynamic flow based upon camera distance.

Decimation" models would increase in detail as the camera was placed closer. Flight Simulator models- like this one of Seattle- are quite small and compact- because they need to be viewed in REAL TIME. Yet, if you were to take the same above scene and rendered it in Vue- with
ray-traced shadows, atmospherics- perhaps even using HDRI-IBL, it would look quite REALISTIC!

So modelers could actually offer a 3D model of Seattle, for instance, at several levels of detail. The lower detail models would look very good at a distance, cost less, and render faster with a much lower polygon overhead. Higher resolution components could be purchased to increase details as required. Or- a "COMPLETE" model set could be offered for Professional users who might want ALL the options...

This isn't "Rocket Science" or even something E-ON must INVENT- its already WIDELY used in many low cost consumer 3D programs and software games like Flight Simulator. In fact there are FS websites where people make and GIVE AWAY HUNDREDS of models of buildings, airports, bridges, and nearly everything else that might make a scene more realistic- and these models drop EXACTLY into their correct places with correct scales. Updates are ALSO just as simple...

Imagine being able to load a GIS Scene like this- where EVERYTHING is Geo-Referenced- and click on each object- like the trees- and add the specific trees you want- and the ENTIRE SCENE is updated with those trees correctly placed, scaled, etc. *******************************************************

As I work with Vue and Eco-Systems scenes I've become
increasingly interested in the huge potential of applying
GIS (Geographic Information System) Data to Vue scenes.
-Unfortunately- you CAN'T yet- not directly- but the basic
surface of this concept has been SCRATCHED by people who
create Photoshop templates that can guide WHERE
Eco-Systems materials can be placed. The results are
extremely precise looking parks, gardens or city scapes.

But there is a HUGE potential in applying GIS templates
to Vue Eco-Systems because GIS can "Geo-Reference" ALL
of the template overlay SHAPES or SHP files so that all
alignments are a correct according to a specific Geo-Terrain.
HUGE amounts of FREE Terrain data are already available on
the internet, including high resolution satellite photo
overlays and even weather phenomena- like hurricanes- which
ALL snap exactly into correct locations because of terrain
Geo-Referencing.

Attached Link: http://www.esri.com/software/arcexplorer/

But even more useful- if VUE could read ESRI SHP files, a really huge potential exists for the nearly-AUTOMATIC creation of Eco-System terrains with roads, houses, rivers, forests, etc. This is because this is what SHP files are used for as representations of data. And best of all- a very large amount of this data is available for FREE on many websites- especially true in the US.

Shape files are a simple format for creating and
storing geometric location and attribute information
on Geo-Referenced terrains. They can be just lines or
specifically shaped filled in blocks of color which
represent data features. Basically they are SMART
color vector overlays that KNOW where they are supposed
to go because they are Geo-Referenced...

The "AutoDesk 3D StudioMAX" of GIS is a company called ESRI
(Environmental Systems Research Institute) and they offer ArcExplorer
-a FREE GIS data viewer. This free software NEVER expires and offers an easy way to perform a variety of basic GIS functions, including display, query, and retrieval of free GIS data. Most importantly, it serves as a "browser" for all the free GIS data thats available on the internet. You can use ArcExplorer either on-line- or as an off-line GIS viewer. ---SEE the link above to get it...

Highway Eco-Materials on a Terrain... OR- Intelligent Eco-Material Highways correctly placed using Geo-Referenced Coordinates! **************************************************

As INTELLIGENT vectors, SHP files that represent highways
could be placed atop a Geo-Referenced Terrain and instantly
-you have a highway system on your terrain! Assigning a VUE
Highway Eco-Material would produce marked black-top highways
with cars on them! SHP files representing railroads could
nearly instanteously create a railroad network on your terrain with tracks, switches (and with some clever AI programming) even bridges and tunnels. (This is how it is done in MS Train Simulator).

Eco-Materials of Geo-Referenced aircraft could populate airports while Eco-Materials of ships and boats could populate a harbor. Basically- INSTANT airport, INSTANT harbor- using SHP files as accurate guides for Eco-Material placement.

By using REAL shape data there would NEVER be roads, airports, train tracks anywhere OTHER THAN in realistic and logical places! So Vue would NOT have to be calculating the CORRECT places to put things- that would have already been done by the fact of using realistic Geo-Referenced data!

All Vue would be doing is assigning Eco-Materials to the data. For instance- Hydrology shape files of rivers and streams could instantly define streams, rivers and lakes on a VUE Terrain- in the CORRECT and NATURAL places- and all you would have to do is zoom down and locate your camera! With a good "smart" Eco-Water material- water would get whiter in downhill rapids areas and calmer in slow moving rivers- ending up still and clear in lakes... all guided by Geo-Referencing.

You could, of course, use shape files to define grassy fields, forests, parks, golf courses, hiking trails, gardens, Ancient Egyptian, Roman and Greek cities- All with pre-defined Eco-Materials. There is already LOTS of FREE GIS SHAPE data out there- provided by Governments, Universities and Non-Profit Organizations.
The ESRI software SHP format is the DEFACTO STANDARD! (Much
like 3DS, OBJ or LWO is to most 3D model-makers.)

Attached Link: http://www.naturalgfx.com/satexample.htm

Hurricane satellite photos (or other weather data) can be dropped into Geo-Referenced scenes- creating the potential of REAL weather effects in VUE INFINITE! Flight Simulator already has this feature. --(NOAA Image created using ESRI software)-- ************************************************************

Some, I am SURE, think this is too FAR OUT of an idea for VUE Infinite- but it is probably because you are unfamiliar with how FAR and how widely AVAILABLE Geo-Referenced GIS Data has become. But, in fact- Planetside, makers of the upcoming Terragen 2 are considering using SHP data files and Geo-Referencing as a software feature for more detailed and accurate terrain options...

The next version of Bryce might very well be considering this too as Bryce is already widely used as a visualization program for Architects, Engineers, and Map Makers and adding SHAPE data would be pretty simple and straight forward- plus make their PROFESSIONAL user base very happy.

Natural Scenery Designer Pro is already moving in this direction and as a Vue-Bryce-Terragen competitor has already jumped ahead by making Geo-Referenced Terrains a MAJOR feature of their current software release. The new "Pro" version includes support for the most common map projections, all US State Planes, and 230 map datums.
It's reprojection engine can reproject very large TIFF images (up to about 26,000 x 26,000 pixels). It also supports a wide array of GIS formats like SDTS DEM, GTOPO, and NED BIL. It does not YET support SHP files, however...

http://www.naturalgfx.com/index.htm

So the QUESTION is- will E-ON make GIS data support a NEW Professional feature of Vue INFINITE- and open itself up to a very LARGE new user base of Computer Aided Design and GIS Professionals who have REAL budgets of money to spend??? We are talking INFINITE here- not the Vue Easel market... (I happen to think this Geo-Referenced Feature Set would be a GOLD MINE opportunity for E-ON to expand its Professional user base... -as well as for Vue Infinite model makers!!!)

Interesting post (as always) a couple of comments: 1. Vue already offers a form of "Level of Detail" (LOD) moedling with its Procedural Terrains 2. Most LOD systems do not retain multiple versions of a model - instead, the base detailed model is rendered using a phantom approximation when it is viewed from a far distance 3. I love the idea of supporting intelligent GIS formats such as ESRI's SHP format but this is far from a trivial task for e-on or anyone else for that matter to implement.

Hi Veritas777! Good ideas you have! To my mind you expect a lot from e-on. But I agree with you that Vue should support more file formats from the gis-world. -TGA and GeoTiff would be nice. Have a look at my gallery to see visualized laserscan-data. Cheers, bounzer.

-Bounzer- really interesting Vue images in your gallery. The one with the "Blue Marble" data is especially great! Yes- the FREE and OPEN GeoTiff format certainly would be a good start for Vue to support... -Dburdick- I honestly don't know all the issues involved with LOD models- I'm just somewhat familiar with MultiGen OpenFlight models and primarily of course with MS Flight Simulator models- as I have downloaded a LOT of them to increase the realism of my Flight Sim world. While they are in Microsoft's own LOD format- they are fairly simple to create as many people seem to be making them (Microsoft gives away an SDK for doing this...) While being able to open and correctly apply SHP files in a Geo-Referenced Terrain would certainly not be an EASY task, I think with perhaps some type of agreement with ESRI- E-on would be in a really EXCELLENT position to be a primary 3rd Party Add-On for the really Huge ESRI customer base! This would not be unlike E-On already working out deals with Autodesk and Newtek. But most importantly, I think, is that ESRI as an "Environmental 3D Data" company- and E-On as the "Artistic Landscape Renderer"- have a real potential "Marriage Made In Heaven"...

Veritas777, could you recommend any particular MSFS 2004 scenery sources? I use MSFS, but have not tried any 3rd party scenes, except for Ultimate Terrain, which i found very disappointing in daylight (nice night lights). I'm in the San Francisco North bay area and most interested in SF scenery. Since this is off-topic, maybe you could leave me a message? Of maybe there are other flight sim enthusiasts here? I also think your ideas are excellent, for users, e-on and commercial modelers, but have no idea how difficult for e-on.

Attached Link: http://sales.hifisim.com/ASVE/resources.htm

JC- I think there are quite a NUMBER of Flight Sim enthusiasts out there! Most don't want to admit it- because it somewhat DATES you- (You aren't playing the usual INSANE KILLER games- and are probably AT LEAST over 35!) Above is a good link place to start. You have to join some of the sites- like you do here at Renderosity- but the FREE STUFF is well worth it! There are LOTS of FREE hi-rez terrains made from high quality 10 meter data- already "draped". I also particularly like the free "SKY WORLD 2004"- really excellent clouds! I also like "Ocean FX 2" for quite realistic ocean surf and sea conditions. You can search for these on the Flight Sim sites. My other new favorite is "Golden Wings"- a bunch of Old Codger Pilot Simmers who have completely re-modeled FS2004 to be a Pre-1940's world with Seaplanes, Bi-planes, Zeppelins, and buildings-airfields to match. And it's completely FREE! Google it to find the website...

Attached Link: http://windrfters.com/

-Actually here's the Golden Wings site. Wouldn't it be GREAT if Vue had a 1930's New York City model...?

Thanks for the info! Yes, i guess many flight simmers are into the full flowering of their geezerhood, like yours truely :o) I used to fly gliders at a wonderful gliderport in the wine country North of SF. Interesting convergence of the flight sim, terrain modeling and 3D object modeling hobbyists, and one i hope e-on will take advantage of.

I really think that E-on needs to realize how HUGE the Flight Sim community is WORLDWIDE- they are big in Japan, Germany, France, U.K., Italy, etc. If E-On could TAP INTO that bunch of Geezers- who are likely to be the types of people with extra disposable income- and offer Geo-Referenced Terrains with airplanes, cars, trains- and all of the natural terrain landscape options and atmospheric effects that Vue offers- it would be a GREAT business... But the GIS connection with ESRI would be the KEY thing to make it all work, I think- as only Microsoft is able to create their own complete GIS world- just for a "game". (I have already thought how incredibly MORE realistic FS-2006 could be! Maybe real-time moving cars, ships and trains? --64-bit Windows COULD make FS-2006 a truely MIND-BOGGLING "Game"...)

Yes, and by nature it is IMMERSIVE 3D, not just static 2D images. So people could walk, sail or motorboat, ride bikes, drive cars or motorcycles, ride trains, fly planes or UFOs or go into orbit. And once the Internet and PCs get fast enough you could do all that interactively, in real time, with many other people all over the world, while talking with them (or their avatars), trading scene links, avatars or models, doing business, etc.

Well- like what Bounzer has shown in his image above of a town (apparently in France) named Fleurier, people have an especially big interest in making maps and 3D geographic representations of their own communities. I've been really surprised to see the number of consumer and semi-professional software packages coming out that allow people to create highly personalized maps and 3D Terrain representations- all using Geo-Referencing- AND- all the FREE GIS data that is available. Unless you have been following this trend- its really quite surprising to see how BIG its getting... Only ten years ago it was basically just VistaPro out there. I've always like VistaPro- and its really a shame that it has not been really updated. I think it would be selling like hotcakes if Vistapro was doing what Natural Scenery Designer is doing now! Ironically- Natural Scenery Designer is almost as OLD as VistaPro is- but their business market FINALLY seems to be catching fire because they have made GEO-REFERENCING and Terrain Draping using NASA satellite photos a CENTRAL part of their software. Its a trend that E-on should be taking note of...

i like msf 2004 too , i boughht the force feed back stick from them too and can full heartedly recommend it. ill be downloading that ww2 addon. I also play unreal allot although im above 42 so dont think playing sims has to do much with age. i agree that most of the 3d techniques game enigines use could be incorperated in 3d apps. blender has already done this.

Don't know anything about MSF but can think of another CGI area that Geo-referencing could tap into - historical reconstructions of land/townscapes. A number of people have done these with Vue, but the spatial reference side is an issue as rivers, buildings, roads, etc need to be precisely scaled and located.

Been away for a few days, so only just picked up on this thread. I am happy to "come out" and admit that I have been a keen flight-simmer since the days of the Commodore 64 - and YES, that does make me over 35!! There are a lot more of us out there than people realise - else why would M$oft continue to support the genre? For all things FS related, you can't do better than go here: www.avsim.com Anyway, back "on-topic" ... ... I have been using on-line "Real World" weather for so long that I never stop to think about it these days - it's just there. And, using something like "ActiveSky 2004", it is extremely realistic and capable of some stunning effects. Look here: http://www.hifisim.com/activesky5.htm to see what I mean. Imagine those skies applied to a "dynamic" Vue scene - it would react to the real weather in whatever part of the world that you choose to set it. Just picture a stunning rocky cliff / sea vista that moves from stunning sunrise through wispy clouds and sea fog to stunning sunset - all dynamically! The technology to do this has existed for years now - it's been in FS for about 5 years now I think. All that would be needed would be to enable the technology within Vue. No doubt easier said than done, but if it can be enabled within something as massively complex as a Flight Simulator, why not elsewhere? Ah well, we can but dream!! :-) Bernie

Well- I think if E-ON were to impliment Geo-Referencing it would lay the important groundwork for many very exciting Vue 3D models. This would help make E-ON the "DAZ3D" of Landscape Models- roads, rivers, parks, villages, historic landmarks, etc- could all be added into your own favorite land area of interest- modern or historic- and the models would go exactly to their correct locations in the scene- a real "NO BRAINER" for hobby users... The sales of lower-end Vue Easel software would increase because the 3D landscape models would be made in the higher-end INFINITE software. Cornucopia would be able to support the sales of lots of 3D Landscape "plug-in's" made by Vue Infinite modelers. All of the models and effects would "SNAP INTO PLACE" at their exact Geo-Ref coordinates. But I really want to emphasize that this is not some FAR OFF technology that E-ON needs to invest lots of R&D on--- its WIDELY AVAILABLE NOW on many websites, in many software programs, and a lot of the needed data are all FREE and in OPEN (non-proprietary) formats (like Geo-Tiff). Planetside- makers of Terragen 2- have already indicated they are going to support GIS and even ESRI SHP "shape" data files...

Attached Link: http://www.sketchup.com/index.php?id=408

Another great 3D program - Sketchup - is doing something similar to this by offering a plugin to Google Earth, where you can position your 3d models on a 3D terrain and share them with others, or use them in presentations, etc. I think E-On ought to be more agressive in going after the GIS and professional CAD visualization markets.

...Very COOL idea!!!

Attached Link: http://www.sketchup.com/index.php?title=GIS

---From the Sketch-Up Website: "We all live in a 3D world. GIS data should too! Can I use my existing GIS data in SketchUp? You bet! SketchUp reads a variety of file formats, including: Shape files, feature classes, orthophotos, and TINS CAD data - DXF and DWG 3DS files Digital Elevation Models - DEM and SDTS Raster data - digital photos, JPG, TIFF, PNG, etc. Can I use my SketchUp models in GIS? You bet! SketchUp exports to variety of file formats, including: ArcGIS as either multipatch or 3D symbology CAD packages Rendering packages Presentation packages The SketchUp ArcGIS Plugin Why try to visualize buildings in 2D when you can obtain a more realistic view? The SketchUp ArcGIS plug-in enables ESRI ArcGIS users with the 3D Analyst extension to quickly create highly detailed three-dimensional models. With the SketchUp 5 ESRI Plugin you can visualize 3D models in SketchUp and then seamlessly transfer the 3D models to an ArcGIS geodatabase for further analysis."

Attached Link: http://www.5d-software.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/index.htm

...And now 3DS MAX has a Google Earth plugin!