I am working on a comicbook that I planned (hopefully) to sell on line. As I am going through all the free stuff that I have downloaded over the years, I amazed at how complex some of the readme files are. I realized that the creators of the free stuff are just trying to protect themselves and their products, but how about just one line at the top of the readme file that says in plain everyday english that says if you can use the product for commerical purposes, non commerical purposes, or both. Thanks! Butch

Mine are at the bottom ....

As long as you brought it upI also often find it unclear whether rights holders who preclude commercial use of their products are simply referring to the actual products themselves, (dont sell a model and include my texture maps), or also intend to prohibit commercial application of all renders in which their products were used (dont sell images in which you used my texture maps).

Well when I started offering freebies, I didn't know how to phrase that. Most of the times, I didn't say anything about that. Now that I know more, I always write: You can use this freebie for personal or commercial RENDERS. You may not distribute or sell... etc. So, I can't help you with others' freebies but even if it doesn't say so in my readme files, you can take it for granted this is what I want. ;o)

That's exactly what I am talking about. A simple plain sentence. Thank you Francemi Butch

Hi Butch; I think your best bet is just contact the artist of what you wish to use. That way you will know for certain, and from most I have met here they are pretty easy going about using their free stuff. The rare ones that are not, well just find another who is :) By the way it's always a nice gesture to mention the artist in your final product. It's just the right thing to do for their generosity :) Also if you like a million dollars, it won't kill you to give them a little bit of the gross..lol

I think your best bet is just contact the artist of what you wish to use. Problem is that many freebie readmes don't even include an email address or a URL... That's when there is a readme.

True that, Francemi .. but at the time you download them from the freebie section..the artist's name is there and usually a link to them..it don't say submitted by "artist unkown" :0) I usually jot down who they are for future reference if needed :0)

Yes, I do that now too. Only, when I started downloading freebies, I didn't know how it worked so I didn't do that. Now I have lots of freebies I don't know where they came from. ;o( This often happens to newbies.

hmm..depending on how big your mailbox is..I could help. I have a database of all the stuff I've downloaded, and true to form, the first 6 CD's or so have precious little info..;) I could cut out the pictures, convert to text, and have only 20,000+ entries. My problem is that I categorize by filename..should fixed that a coupla years ago..;)

Precluding commercial use, by default, means commercial use of the mesh (e.g. putting on a magazine CD), since this is the only thing that copyright actually covers. You have all legal rights to your own renders.

Ah yes,Francemi .. now I see where you're coming from..me too .. I like free stuff too..gots tons of it..lol Yes that can be a bit scarey if you want to use one of those in something you might wish to market, and suddenly some suits are writing you nasty emails about copyright stuff..eek! For that..it is a bit the artist's fault for not putting in a read me file specific. But hey theres still lots of free stuff added every day, and thanks to all of them doing that for us. Let's not forget though..they also sell stuff..and with that..no problem using how you want..and there's lots of stuff for as little as $5 around that is really good, like the Alyssa V3 character from German-Witch..nice product, and nice lady who created it :0) I guess a person could always post the products name or image here, and find out who it came from..The Artists / Merchants here visit these forums often.

Thank you Pakled. I don't really need to know because I do not sell anything. It is only when I upload an image I'd like to give credit where it is due.

One problem that I've run across from time to time involves old freestuff -- items that I downloaded years ago. The original content creator(s) have long since disappeared into the ether, so there's no one around to ask for permissions on the use of an item.

Also, I've got a lot of freestuff in my "Free Runtime" that I don't have a clue where the items originally came from. Much less do I have any idea at all of what the old readme's for each item had to say: or even if the free items HAD an included readme in the first place.

So what to do in such cases? Use the item in a render anyway......or simply never use the item in question for any for-commercial renders at all? Could an image uploaded to a subscription site's gallery be considered to be a "commercial use" of an item? I leave the question open: because I'm not a copyright lawyer.

Another issue - once in a while a freestuff creator (or for that matter a commercial product creator) will include highly restrictive EULA's that effectively make an item useless to work with. Whenever this is done with freestuff items: I simply won't use them. Whenever this is done with commercial items: I simply won't buy them.

Yeah XENOPHONZ, I agree about not "buying" products with a bunch a legal strings on it. It's sort of like the video game industry not allowing you to make a back up CD..the sell you the product, then call you a thief..lol I don't plan on selling free stuff I get, or even hacking stuff I pay for, but I will use them in renderings, animations, etc.. but if or when I do..I would like to give the original artist credit at least i/e like merchants do here for their demo pages..like hair by, outfit by, etc etc And for the record..heck I got stuff I paid for and forgot where it came from..lol

In Post #11:
You have all legal rights to your own renders

Well that was really the gist of my question; so glad weve cleared that up for all time and circumstances!

But on a serious note Phantast, that really sounds just a tad too simplistic. Help me out here:

How can we maintain that a render incorporating copyrighted elements is not a derivative work, and therefore still subject to the original rights holders' copyrights any more than if I were to use a copyrighted photograph from National Geographic as a texture or background?

I couldnt tell if you were just expressing a wish or opinion, or if you were alluding to statutory or case law that would support such a conclusion.

How can we maintain that a render incorporating copyrighted elements is not a derivative work, and therefore still subject to the original rights holders' copyrights any more than if I were to use a copyrighted photograph from National Geographic as a texture or background? You can't. It is still a derivative work. That does not negate your copyrights on the item. They still remain. The original work's author, however, gains interest in the manner of distribution, and can block such if they choose to. As for the issue of what you can and cannot use... The little option that covers this for the author of a freebie is not adequately explained (and, never has been, although waaaay back when it didn't matter it wasn't important). Since it is not adequately explained, it has always been a matter of interpretation on the part of the person doing the uploading. As such, the response by Phantast in post 11 is correct in some cases, but not in all, in part. While you do own rights to all your own renders, the terms of various artists do vary (for example, the bulk of the japanese stuff is non commercial without prior written authorization -- inclusive of commercial renders). Unless you are certain the creator thinks the same, you risk having them exercise control over the display and sale of your work. And the only way to be certain (as the little option choice is not a protection or gaffe of any sort) is to contact the provider. If, like Xenophonz and I, you have an incredible array of older freebies from folks who are no longer around (both in terms of at this site and on this plane of existence), and you cannot determine such, then by default, the law applies as if no usage were granted, and you can only use the stuff for your personal renders (which precludes uploading them to renderosity, which is a method of distribution). WHich seems rather against the original author's wishes to some extent (let's face it, the majority of folks can be surmised to be uploading the stuff in order to see it used in renders here, just like other sites upload freebies in hopes of seeing renders in their galleries), but, sadly, is outside the realm of the law in its strictest sense. takes another breath exhales Whew. All of that said, my personal rule of thumb, period, is that if I don't know or it's labelled non commerical, I don't use it in anything commercial that I do. IT keeps me out of potential trouble and takes the least amount of effort. If I really, really want to use something, I go ahead and ask -- and often, I'll ask even if it's allowed as a commercial use itme in order tfor me to make proper credit notes should I ever get called on it by my client. (sorry it's not the best news...)

Yeah I agree..something ripped from National Geographic is pretty much a finished project, and is protected. Whereas here..things either givin away or sold..are meant to be part of a bigger picture for the most part..sorta raw data I guess :) I mean if somebody offers a model of a pencil, and comes with beaucoup rules, I'm sure after maybe a render or 2 of just "a pencil" the thrill would be gone anyhow..lol

A image from the National Geographic is, I think, a different case, because your work would be an image of an image. I would love to use screen grabs from Google Earth, but that is clearly prohibited by the license of the software itself. An image of a mesh is different. It could be argued that a render is not derivative of the mesh (but might be of the texture). Most of the cases that would be likely to really be actionable would be those involving trademark violations, which is a different story. Incidentally, I have contacted some Japanese freestuff providers for permission regarding commercial renders, and the reply I always got was along the lines of my previous post above.

Gives ynsaen an inhaler to keep from passing out..LOL Anyhow Butch (remember him) make an effort to contact the original artist if you have concerns :)

If anyone is aware of a case involving a lawsuit over the improper use of downloaded Poser freestuff -- then I'd be curious to hear about it.

Somehow, I've got serious doubts that there's been even one such case ever brought against anyone in the short history of Poserdom.

Unless if someone were to take a freebie item, and started selling it. THEN you might have a genuine problem. But even in such a case: most freebie content creators don't have the personal wherewithal to seriously pursue a legal copyright-violation case against an offender. Particularly not if it's an international situation.

I suspect that about the best that anyone could do would be to point out the violation to site admins -- and in the various Poser public forums. Maybe get the offender banned. As has been done before. A true copyright violation can effectively end a Poser merchant's career. Or at least it'll serve to ruin their reputation within the community.

But of course, the copyright offender can always come back later with a different nick.......and pretend to be someone else.

So what's to enforce a freebie EULA? In reality, I believe that we are dealing with an honor system here.

For the average Poser user -- you don't go against the freebie creator's wishes simply because it isn't "nice" to do something like that. Not because you've got any real fear of being sued.

"It could be argued that a render is not derivative of the mesh (but might be of the texture)." Much more accurate :D. However, non commercial terms of use isn't a copyright issue -- it's a contractual one, and if the terms of use are "not for commercial use", then that does include renders. "Incidentally, I have contacted some Japanese freestuff providers for permission regarding commercial renders, and the reply I always got was along the lines of my previous post above." Same here. But better to ask than assume. "Somehow, I've got serious doubts that there's been even one such case ever brought against anyone in the short history of Poserdom." Same. But that doesn't mean that 1 - it can't happen, and 2 - that it won't. Indeed, I believe,in general, that it will happen -- and I won't be on the paying end, if I can help it. "So what's to enforce a freebie EULA? In reality, I believe that we are dealing with an honor system here." Incorrect. In reality, we are dealing with contract law. Within the acceted norms of the communtiy we are dealing with an honor system in the hopes of not having to take it to the reality. Because the reality sucks, and would create all sorts of ugly headaches, and none of us want to go through that. "For the average Poser user -- you don't go against the freebie creator's wishes simply because it isn't "nice" to do something like that. Not because you've got any real fear of being sued. " True, but ya never know.

I dunno -- like I said, I'm not a lawyer, and I make no claims to legal expertise.

But I'd tend to think that at best, a Poser freebie's readme being violated would be a matter for small claims court. And for the average Joe, it's tough forking over $5,000 in legal fees to a lawyer in order to collect $200 in damages from an artist that might have misused a freebie in a render. Assuming that the court even rules in favor of the freebie creator -- and such a result is by no means guaranteed.

Not to mention the impossibility of going after the offender in any sort of legal sense -- if the offender happens to live in Russia or Indonesia.

But ruining their reputation in the community -- now THAT would hurt. Especially if they are a well-respected merchant.........as we've seen on several occasions.

In the Poser community -- unless if we are talking about top merchants with big-time sales -- or companies doing fierce battle against one another -- I really don't expect to ever see a freebie maker sue some hapless Poser hobbyist who happens to use a freebie in an image that the freebie creator doesn't like.

Not that I intend to begin practicing the wholesale violation of readme's. After all, we've got an honor system to follow here........

As for "contract law" -- remember the phrase: "Verbal contracts aren't worth the paper that they're printed on."

Go to a copyright lawyer: and tell that high-money lawyer that someone took your free 3D model of a pogo stick, and then posted an image in the Rendo gallery which used the pogo stick in a way that you didn't approve of. Wave enough money under the lawyer's nose, and he might even take the case. But he'll be laughing at you behind his hand as he heads off to the bank.

Hmmmmm.

I think that I'll stick with the honor system. Works for me.