i posted a comment to a poem. the preference was for critical and non critical comments. aftrerwards i more or less get shot down by someone who dissagrees with me. is this normal for the writing gallery. are pat on the backs all that people really want? whats the point of asking for critical comments or giving them if people are just going to attack anyone who gives them. sorry for the cut and paste anyway below is questions asked about cliche, my answer, my comment on the poem and the reply i got from someone who isn't the author.
has anyone any views on the subject or my comment?

by billy423uk on Dec 14, 2006 3:40:35 am

So polish your skills, weaver of words,
since the gifts you bring
may yet surpass the beauty of the rose
and lack the sting

”….the last two lines seem cliché to me.”
”….and the last two lines aren't that great, kinda cliché even.”

Now I've no problem with 'the last two lines aren't that great' – a simple value-judgement which the reader's entitled to make. It's the 'cliché' part that bothers me. Someone once criticised one of my pictures on the grounds that 'nudes are cliché'…. well that's a thousand years of art dismissed. I'm simply not comfortable with this usage since it is almost always derogatory and begs some important questions:

First … who decides what is cliché? The critic? The critic and his friends? The critic's Eng. Lit. teacher/professor? And what criteria do they use?

Secondly … why does the critic assume that the writer cannot think of another form of words or another image? Isn't it just possible that the writer might have selected these words because he/she wanted to?

Thirdly … the search for novelty of expression can lead to self-meaning slabs of verbal nonsense. Given the antiquity of literature it is highly unlikely that anything written now is anything more than a variant on what has been written before.

THE CLICHÉ-HOUNDS

Heard afar
a hoarse hullabaloo of harriers
tongue-lolling, straining at the leash,
eager for the chase:
the cliché-hounds gather.

Allow me, if you please,
a modest morsel of cliché
I am replete
from an esoteric gourmet feast
of exquisite exotic verbiage
served on precious platters of cunning design
and intricate verbal decoration.
Allow me, if you please,
a common slice of bread.

Permit me, if you please,
a little piece of commonplace.
I am lost
among the peerless lofty peaks
of high pretentious imagery
fearful above the deep dark metaphoric chasms
and the treacherous sloughs of similes
Permit me, if you please,
to tread familiar ways.

Sanction, if you please,
a well-known phrase or two
I am confused
by untranslatable utterances
and outré flights of wordy fancy
reversed, imploded, combined and recombined
meaning obscured and ever out of reach.
Sanction, if you please,
some plain and simple words.

Let me, if you please,
communicate direct
I am trapped
In the convoluted, involuted
multi-clausal maze of mangled structures,
obfuscation and dilettante punctuation
and inaccurate spelling to boot.
Let me, if you please,
make common cause with common men.

Heard closer
the hollow sounds of hunting hounds,
jaws a-drool, eyes wild in the search.
In the ultimate literary critical thrill
The cliché-hounds close in for the kill.

my reply to the cliche question

"So polish your skills, weaver of words,
since the gifts you bring
may yet surpass the beauty of the rose
and lack the sting"

a cliche and what it is. a phrase thats been used by others so many times it loses it's lustre, takes originality away, becomes boring and in doing so can lend the reader to find anotherwise good pice of writing mundane and steriotypical.

cliches are okay if you only read a bit of poetry but if you read a lot you get to the stage of here we go again. a famous poet said to use the word beauty in a poeming is risking a lot use it twice and the piece is lost. (not in those words. how many times has someone heard the phrase, beauty of a rose or polish your skills. would you enjoy a film if the same dialogue kept popping up as was in the previous film you watched.

my comments on the poem

now to comment on the poem.

first off i really enjoyed it. it had meter and flowed well. i nejoyed it best reading it allowe to myself. the last line seems or feels forced in order to end the piece. for me the poem ended with the penultimate line.

whilst it's strewn with cliches i find in this piece they work often they don't they take away what originality the poet is trying to instill in their piece.

again for me a few of the shorter words could have been left out as they take from the atnosphere of the piece.

the in the last line of the first stanza
and in the 7th line of the second stanza
the in the 4th line 3rd stanza
the in line 7 3rd stanza
in on the 4th line last stanza
and a couple more.

again for me these words add nothing to the piece and so become redundant.
that said i found it to be a good piece of writing. well done.

please don't take anything i said personally. i was just commenting on what i read as i an individual saw it.

billy

Billy,

First, I appreciate your concerns regarding the comments. The answer to your question really is both simple and complex (if that makes the slightest bit of sense). 

Each person is different. I find that out of all the users on Renderosity, the writers actually have a tendency to appreciate frank and constructive criticism far more often than average. This, of course, does not hold true for everyone as egos can be sensitive and easily bruised things. One of the things I've learned on Renderosity and through friendships with those with creative minds is that they tend to have far more sensitive egos than most people. 

So the answer is yes, some people here undoubtedly are only looking for positive words and encouragement. And the answer is no, some people are looking for honest criticism. My recommendation is simply to continue to post your honest impressions in your comments, while keeping in mind that your words can bite unintentionally. Keep your comments constructive, and don't concern yourself with how your thoughts are received.

I went ahead and edited your forum post just to remove the comment you considered to be attacking, simply because I'd prefer to keep things as civil and not directed at any particular person as possible.

David L.
Writer's Forum Moderator

no worries on the civil side and i have a thick skin. whilst i wasn't that upset about the comment on my comment it did make me see why for the main we never actually see much constructive crit. personally if i did a piece and put it up for comment i'd like to know what parts don't work for the reader. i would never dream of telling someone their opinion was rubbish lol. unless of course they were giving comment just to be unkind.

i suspect many don't give honest constructive comment to the written word for fear of the backlash. it will be a while before i attempt to again. 

thanks for you reply midrael

billy

Billy, 

I wish people would give honest critique on my writing. I don't see myself as a writer. Writing is just an outlet for me. I do write for me first and foremost but sometimes I do want to know if what I slap on the screen has any merit. It probably won't stop me from writing but it's always good to know where I stand.

Sorry to hear of your ordeal, I assure you that not everyone in the writer's gallery is looking for a pat on the back.

Leah 

nice to hear leah

i think thats the best attitude to have. as long as the comments aren't a condemnation of someones work i think genuine feedback at least gives a writer something to think about even if they choose to ignore it. crits aren't written in stone and the writer always has the last say. a good comment should never be aimed at stopping a writer from writing.

billy

Advise to writers of poems that do want to write better poetry.  Number one rule of poems.
A good poem should be metered. Meter= rhythm: the measured arangement, in a line of verse, of groups of syllables having a time unit and a regular beat. Types of meters; iamb, dactle, trochee, spondee, anapest. Any dictionary will explain them. I hope this helps someone as it made a world of difference to me many, many, many years ago

I rarely visit the Writers' Forum [pressure of time etc], and was somewhat surprised to find a piece of work of mine reproduced in its entirety here. I would never post another person's work in one of the forums without at the very least informing that person. Indeed, I would feel that it would be common courtesy to ask permission first. However, it may be that an old fogey like me is a little too concerned with good manners, so let that pass ...

I do remember the comment made by billy on my poem and brief discourse, and also the strong response of another commentator. I have to say here that I am interested in and appreciative of all comments on my pieces [and I'm confident that the vast majority of people who post in the Writer's Gallery share my view]. I never comment on comments - whether they contain 'praise or blame' - I take a somewhat Kiplingesque view and consider both as impostors. If advice is offered I will treat it seriously, consider it and if it advances the poetic voice I'm trying to develop I will use it if and when I decide to revise the piece. 

I'm far more concerned with the mis-direction this thread has taken, and the implication that it is the author's ego which is at issue here. I certainly don't seek 'pats on the back' and to imply such - even indirectly - is insulting in the extreme. 

It needs to be clearly stated that this was a dispute between a critic and another commentator, and thus DOES NOT INVOLVE THE AUTHOR IN ANY WAY. 

Finally, I have to say that if ever I decided to write a detailed analysis/critique on some piece of writing I would be prepared to receive comments to the contrary without complaint if only to demonstrate that is not critics who sometimes have the more sensitive egos.

Mike

often it is the authors ego meico 

but this isn't or should i say wasn't the case in this instance.
i have to say your attitude on crit advice or comments given is similar to my own. nice to see you treat feedback seriously. with your attitude, giving comment, feedback etc would be a pleasure and a privilage. sad that bystanders cant do the same as the authors sometimes.

as for comments to the contrary. i always like to see differing points of view about poetry. and whilst i would join in discourse with other posters i would never tell someone there crit was wrong if the author replied to me i would try and be respectfull in my answer to them explaining more if possible why i thought what i did. i would also express my understanding in the author not agreeing with me. in truth i wouldn't class what i said to your piece as a detailed critique. i always believe the author has the last say in how they respond to feedback and that the critiquer once they have nade a crit should accept the authors choice without trying to change it.

thanks for the post meico

billy