hey, i was just wondering if anyone had any advice for recreating a stage? i keep doing plain dance scenes (one or two figures, no set), and i figured it was about time to stop randomly mucking about and establish a basic stage scene.  so i'm looking for any advice anyone has about recreating a nice semi-reflective black floor with lots of scratches and scuffs and stage lighting (about which i know zero).     i know information about stage lighting could fill a library, but i'm just trying to find a good starting point.

cobaltdream - Don't make the floor too reflective or JJ will be after you.  :scared: Look in one of the recent threads here to understand what I'm talking about!
When you mention stage lighting, do you just mean the lighting itself or the props as well?

I recently did stage lighting model (a flying truss) for someone..I have seen stages, but they're rather specialized (1 'pole dancing/comedy/small stage' sort of thing, and a Wrestling ring, that could be adapted). Not sure about the rest. Seems a Poser cube primitive could be pressed into service. If you have Poser 5 and up, you have your choice of materials from all the sites out there. Stay tuned for more helpful replies..;)

One 'around your elbow to get to your thumb' method would be to go to the Bryce forum, download bryce 5 (free), then go to Tony Lynch's site to pick up a lot of Bryce  wood mats (specific to Bryce). Then point down, adjust lighting to suit, apply the material to the plane, and save the result as a jpg. There must be a way to import it into Poser. (If you want to go around your big toe to get to your thumb, download Wings 3d, create a stage model, UVMap it [, then export from Wings as and .obj file, then import  into Poser). It's convoluted, but I do it..;)

 Both DAZ and RDNA have Stage sets and there's a set of Rockstage lights here in the Free stuff.  I have both Stage Sets and have used them on occasion.  In fact, when the new character is done she's going on stage for her promo montage ... lol.

i was thinking of the lights themselves.  they're the main part i'm struggling with.  i don't need a lighting rig, not yet at least.  most of the dance images i've seen online and my experience of watching performances is that the larger setting isn't the point, just the stage.  so really, a material for the ground plane and maybe a white screen/ backdrop would be perfect for the type of images i'm thinking of.  and i definitely wasn't wanting perfect mirrors.  the scuffing and blurring is definitely necessary. 

thanks everyone for the information; it's very helpful.

What about volumetric lighting agaist a sailcloth type background?
For some of my earlier renders, I used svdl's sailcloth material (it comes with his sailboat freebie, found here in freestuff), and pasted it to a flatened cube and used as a background.  Also, if it's not animation, lighting can be adjusted in postwork, and so is less important at render.
DPH

sailcloth.... that sounds like canvas.  i bet i could use that in a lot of settings.  though being a matmatic fan, the proper thing would be to figure out how to generate a canvas shader with loom. 

on the lighting: yeah, that's true, but i find it necessary to at least get close in poser to what i want.  and i'm not even vaguely there.  i think the problem is that i just don't know enough (as in anything) about what i'm trying to simulate.

Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers dancing under a volumetric spot light, with everything else blackened out so that all we can see is them, and nothing else.  A slight hint of a non-intrusive sailcloth background, just beyond the range of the spot light would add to the mystery and magic of the moment.
DPH

Someone at DAZ has a "photographer's studio" set (MacLean, I think?) that has a variety of lights similar to stage lights, and they are both props and working lights that attempt to replicate the effects of the real light equipment. Very interesting package, but it seems to take huge computer resources to work. Even so, I still use it for certain types of scene.

There is also a Kabuki stage at PPros, I think. I haven't used it, so I don't know what sort of lights it comes with. Complex lighting is not a feature of traditional Japanese theater, so I doubt if it will be helpful in that regard.

M

So far one of the closest things I've seen to a traditional ballet space (or, rather, to something you could do that in) is the free "opera house" at DAZ. Seen some other nice stages here and there, but so far nothing at all with a proper backstage and flys (my particular interest, as I'm a working theater stiff). As a lighting designer who has done a bit of dance what I think of as most typical is a very simple space; black wings, cyclorama, marly floor. The lights themselves aren't visible in the picture but their effects certainly are; esp shinbusters and head-highs behind each of those wings. Floor might be stage black (aka chewed up and many-times-painted-over) but more likely is marly...black rubber strips, about four feet wide, taped down the seams. Neither is that shiny. Sometimes -- more often in some Hollywood idea of a dance space than in any real space -- you've got that polished hardwood floor. Does anyone in Hollywood have bones in their feet? Ouch! I've also thought of doing some moments from plays and dance, but my thoughts were more towards recreating the total space. I would particularly like a stage with some nice depth, so you could hang the proper soft goods, set up groundrows, wing-and-border set, a "Nutcracker" tree, et al. Anyhoo. For close-up images I'd mimic floor and backdrop with materials. P5 and above, you can get some nice bump and displacement to add nicks and lumps, all with procedural shaders. So no image map involved. For the lighting, a little bit of light cone would maybe help -- but I'm imagining now what it would look like with some strong atmosphere!

i hate this editor.  i just lost a huge post.  more in a bit.....

Back-browser and you might be able to save it.

I dunno if this is something you've seen already... Looks interesting, so I thought I'd share: http://www.theatrebooks.com/theatre/lighting.html

I was cruising through marketplace (only this one so far) and didn't see a lot of stage type setups. I've often thought myself how a studio portraight background or a theatrical set backgrouns (and lighting) for poser would come in handy.

Can't remember the books I've read. Most were back in college. I'd have to say, if there was ever one concise and near-indispensible book for theater lighting, it would have to be the Sylvania Lighting Handbook. And that was a handout from the company making most lamps back then! Of course I'm too used to designing in a real space. Poser's AO just doesn't cut it. I need at least Carrara with a proper global illumination solution.

Hey, Cobaltdream :)
I was looking at an image from one of the people in our new critique forum, and the way the background was made, made me think of you and this thread, so I thought I'd share this:
this image: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1489379

Look at the description of how the background was made, Art Pearl just took a plane, and draped it over a cylinder with the help of cloth sim. This gave him a nice flowing background. With some low light, that could make a very nice muted, but still dynamic backing for a dance scene. Especially if the background flow happens to support the scene composition and movement.

I dunno that the linked image background would work for what you have in mind, but the concept of it might!

Quote - i hate this editor.

I've always thought it was aptly named.
M

Quote - I've often thought myself how a studio portraight background or a theatrical set backgrouns (and lighting) for poser would come in handy.

You really should look at McLean's photo studio scene. Sound like what you are looking for. There was a fabulous art classroom set at PoserStyle (now defunct). The modelers are still active, so maybe it will resurface. It's one of my favorite scenes, very intelligently conceived.

M

sorry to have been absent so long!  allergies have been killing me; all i've been doing recently is resting and rendering.  thanks so much for all the information.  Conniekat8- that store looks great.  thanks for posting the link.  i've definitely been thinking about how to make a hanging.  the cloth room sounds like a great start.  i wonder if i can manage to actually duplicate the hanging part?  that is, set up the right amount of rings or whatever is at the top?

ah!  i was hoping someone in the know would post.  ok.  as i was just writing, i've only seen marly once in a performance (so i don't have much of a reference), and absolutely never (as far as i can tell) in any of the images i've come across. not to contradict you in the slightest; i'm sure the reality is very different than what is depicted.  for instance, in the pictures i've found all of the black floors show reflections.   mostly blurry, and some more prominent than others, but definitely present.  i'm also finding a lot of hardwood floors.  none the images seem very hollywood, though.  and since the floor of the gym for dance classes here on campus is hardwood (gorgeous, gorgeous floors),  think it can't be too uncommon?

right now, i'm thinking of a style of in the line  of publicity shots dance departments, companies and schools publish, and maybe posters.  so probably different than the actual reality you work in.  some examples just from the first two pages of google image search, term "dance":

http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/0506/Jan30_06/img/060130_cal_2dance.jpg
http://www.emich.edu/dance/images/dance_libertygarden.jpg
http://www.vidf.ca/images/bg_workshopDance.jpg
http://www.genevaconcerts.org/GenevaCts/FaganDance.gif
http://www.bu.edu/bridge/archive/2002/04-26/photos/dance.jpg

and some examples (with variance)  of the type of scene i'm thinking of:

http://asdivision.ceu.edu/dance/assets/dance1.JPG
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/photos/dance2.jpg - the backdrop (cyclorama?) in this one especially
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/photos/dance1.jpg
http://www.sandiegodance.org/Clancy.jpg - the floor especially in this one
http://houstondance.org/DSH/Site_Documents/Grouped/Revolve%20Dance%20Co.JPG

there are white versions of the publicity dance shot that are great too, but i'm not as worried about those right now.  i figure a white shader on the ground, a white plane, and the right lighting and i'm there. 

maclean's studio looks great but
  a) it's a photo studio, not a stage, and that kind of shows
  b) knowing macleans strong d|s leanings, i'm uncertain whether it would do what i want in poser

i like d|s and use it frequently, but i use poser as much or more.  they both have strengths and weaknesses i appreciate and am frustrated by, so i swing between the two depending on my needs and frustration level with the one i've been working with recently.

Heh. Oddly enough, I recognize marly in the first four pics you referenced. Not sure about the fifth -- I think that might be a sprung dance floor. And the second set of references, those are ALL marly floors. Most of them against a cyc, with the second against sheers (a fine silk hung in front of the cyclorama). So for the look of these I'd say a complex procedural texture for the marly, and as others have suggested, drape a cloth plane to make a cyc or sheers. Unfortunately, to get the look of those sheers I think you'd have to increase the poly count quite a bit on the cloth plane. But might be possible to simulate it with a displacement channel, driven by a hand-painted map or a procedural texture. Dance lighting is about the body. Class publicity shots, especially with younger dancers, are one of the few times you really get smooth face lighting. Otherwise, it's all sides, back light, top light, et al. Especially sides. Bringing in lights from both sides, flat the the plane of the proscenium, really reveals the form and pose of the dancer. And it's low, too, architecture permitting. Best dance light is at dancer height -- but often you end up having to hang high sides from overhead, as far off stage as you can manage. Some of the most dramatic dance light is with a single strong key. Another popular look is silhouette against a cyc. Kind of making me want to try one of these pics next! But I'm supposed to be working on a teen rock band (to show off some new props I'm making).

how is marly both reflective and scratched then?  usually, those aren't properties of rubber, but all of those floors (except the backdrop ref) are both reflective and scratched.  must be an interesting substance.  either way, the right material has to be fairly reflective and have the right sort of scratched noisy displacement.  tiles are easy, i'm not worried about that, but the wear looking like scuffs and scratches and not just some procedural addition seems tricky.

interesting, interesting lighting advice.  thanks so much for sharing it.  it helps a lot.  i'm going to have to think about it to internalize it. 

so, in 3d land where you're the master of the space, you should go with low lights in general?

It's a shiny, thick, latex-like substance. Usually black, tho I've seen gray used in rehearsal studios. Has a definite shine to it but the reflections are blurry. Surface has two notable features (besides the tape joins); scuff marks, which are duller than the rest of the finish, and ripples. Very water-like, really. It bunches and ripples under stress. You can actually see little stress patterns around the dancer's feet in at least one of the photographs you linked. And the whole surface undulates gently; it never quite gets all the way flat. Imagine taking a latex dress and smoothing it out on a hard counter-top; some ripples will still be there, especially around the seams. I'm thinking a really good texture would be such a deep stack of nodes might be simpler to paint it...displacement or bump map for the ripples, a specularity or reflectivity map for the scuff marks. And a little noise in the "black" as well (it does get dirty and less than thoroughly black). (Odd bit of marly trivia; often when mopped before performance they mix in a little diet coke. Helps the dancers get traction). As for light, light what looks good. I like to think back story a bit; what kind of space is this, what can they afford, etc. Be a difference between a small school and a big-city ballet. In a world of infinite number of lights and the ability to hang them anywhere (without regard to entrances or sightlines) I'd love to be able to light diagonals for dance. So much choreography hits those diagonals, but you really can't lay a light down that same angle, or isolate that moment properly. But I don't think that would be that believable in 3d.

pardon, light diagonals?  please expound (if you can spare the time).  looking at images, it seems to me that there's an interesting tension between reality and vision in publicity shots.  lots seem to try to make the background not exist at all, and suspend the dancer completely.  some are even obviously postworked to acheive this.  that is to say, i think there's a range of places to take this kind of picture, and a sort of "ideal" with only a hint of reality is just as interesting to me as catching a real sense of a simple stage (without needing to see the wings or theatre).  then again, i'm not familiar at all with the physical limitations, so i don't know how well i'd ever mimic them in terms of lighting.

Choreographers love diagonal formations and movements. Choreographers also tend to think, when they think lighting, in terms of shapes and colors. This sometimes makes collaboration difficult as lighting designers primarily think in terms of angles, with coverage following, and they understand color to be an interaction of all the chroma elements of the environment (including the habituation of the viewer). What this comes down to, tho, is there are moments when I'd love to have a light or a pair shining along the exact path the dancer is following. It just becomes tough because the path ends are both visible to the audience -- so the lighting instruments would also be visible (and possibly in the way). Hitting a similar angle with a series of lights from above gets much of that effect, but masking tends to run parallel with the proscenium, again. Which means an instrument hung downstage will have a hard time shooting far upstage and along the appropriate angle. But more practically, you run out of instruments. A full dance has a LOT of moves, and trying to hit each one with a dedicated set of lights rapidly uses up any practical inventory. You are better off picking your battles; go for general lights that work for most of the show, and a few specials for moments you really, really want to make unique. I'm a minimalist, myself. I love the look of a soloist on a dark stage in the pool of a single spot from overhead. Similarly, I've done a long diagonal movement by a whole group of dancers lit from one instrument plopped down on the edge of the stage on a floor stand. Re background; a cyc is nice because you get color but it has seemingly infinite depth (if lit right!) And if it is smooth, it tends to fade out of the audience's perception; they focus on the dancers, treating that upstage expanse as a sort of negative space. That said, lots of what is the full stage picture will drop out in a photograph. Dynamic range of film is so much less than that of the human eye, and the camera does not have depth perception. Nor is it generally sensitive to motion. So a picture will not quite capture what the actual dance looked like. Was rolling up some scraps of marly this morning (we use scraps to cover cables). Was tempted to borrow one and scan it for texture!

oooooooooo.  yes, please scan!

that was a great explanation, and helpful for lighting just about any movement.  diagonals just about always help illustration, because, in general, we're trying to depict action. 

so... this is what i'm taking from what you've said (just to verify)

1. It's good to start simple.  Begin with a single spot first, and build from there as necessary.
2. You want to emphasize lines and motion of the figures. Light at an angle to the camera, and start at about figure height.
3. Think in diagonals, both in terms of composition and lighting.

oh, and by the way, have you tried bagginsbill's light shader?  it adds fresnel and inverse r squared falloff to lights in poser.