Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm doing something wrong here, but I have a few light issues in Poser "Pro".

For one, when I reload a saved scene, any and all IBL lights will have shadows  turned off, even though they were on when the scene was saved. Shadow maps, if that makes a difference.

For another, any lights that had visibility turned off will have it back on.

Finally, any and all point lights whose scale has been turned down to 1% (to avoid having to see them) will be back at 100% when the scene is reloaded.

These things happen not once, not twice, not occasionally, but all the time, every time, sure as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

Is it just me, am I doing something wrong? Or have real pros been asking for real pro features such as lights which just do whatever the hell they feel like doing regardless of how they're set up?

you, like myself were mistakenly under the impression that poser was designed to be a serious tool used by professionals in the industry.

IT IS NOT

:P

I dont have poser pro but you should be able to save a test scene and open the pz3 in wordpad and see if those parameters are being saved correctly.

But aren't all IBL's by default supposed to have shadows off?  That is the purpose of IBL, provide ambient but no shadows.

Quote - But aren't all IBL's by default supposed to have shadows off?  That is the purpose of IBL, provide ambient but no shadows.

Well, maybe... I don't know, and don't care, really. The fact is, it has a shadow option, the shadows work when turned on, so therefore I expect it to reload it as it was saved. I don't need or want Poser to do my thinking and planning for me, I just want it to behave and bow to my will. ;-)

But yeah, I guess the IBL's are designed in that way. Nevertheless, there will be a need for shadows. Maybe thats why I see so many Poser renders that seem to have no shadows - because people think it's "correct" to just slap on an IBL and let it do it's thing?

At any rate, I don't use Poser to try to get any kind of reality, just effects.

Quote - you, like myself were mistakenly under the impression that poser was designed to be a serious tool used by professionals in the industry.

IT IS NOT

:P

Yeah, as I've written in here a few other times, you really have to question a "pro" app whose main (and probably only) real "pro" feature is a set of plugins designed to get it into more capable programs...

Yup, there's no point putting shadows on IBL lights anyway. AO yes, but not shadows.

I've just set shadows on for an IBL light in my scene, saved it and re-opened it. The shadows are now switched off.

I reduced the scale of a point light to 1%, saved the scene and re-opened it. It's now 100%.

I made a light invisible (meaning made the preview outline invisible, not turned the light off), saved the scene and re-opened it. It's now visible. (If a light is switched off, that property IS saved).

So these are all properties of the lights that are just not saved. The geometry and physical properties of lights are all loaded from standard objects, I believe, and not actually saved in each scene file. None of these properties affects the rendered scene itself.

Thank you IsaoShi, for confirming that.

But I disagree with this:

Quote -
Yup, there's no point putting shadows on IBL lights anyway. AO yes, but not shadows.

There is always a point to doing something in 3D. None of this is real, it's all an illusion, and even the people using Maya, Houdini, Pixar and apps which don't even have names and exist only in studios use lights and shadows for effects in ways they're not "intended" to be used.
So as I said, I don't care if it's "correct" or not to turn shadows on for an IBL, I'm going to do it if in doing so I get the effect I want. :-)

I don't care if it's "correct" or not to turn shadows on for an IBL, I'm going to do it if in doing so I get the effect I want. :-)"

That's the mark of a canny artist. :)

I'm also annoyed by these return-to-default things. 

There's no reason for them; all the changes you mentioned are written in the PZ3. 
But Poser decides on its own that it doesn't really need to read everything in the PZ3.
 
It's like leaving your carpentry tools laid out on the workbench at night, then finding
that the janitor has disassembled your jigs and reset all the calipers and
micrometers to 0, because they look nicer that way.

Quote -

There's no reason for them; all the changes you mentioned are written in the PZ3. 
But Poser decides on its own that it doesn't really need to read everything in the PZ3.
 
It's like leaving your carpentry tools laid out on the workbench at night, then finding
that the janitor has disassembled your jigs and reset all the calipers and
micrometers to 0, because they look nicer that way.

LOL! So true. :-)

I totally agree with MikeJ and ockham on these points!

And I would add that I wish there was a way to load a figure without those stupid "GoalCenterOfMass" and "CenterOfMass" props being added. They are the most useless pieces of junk I have ever seen. If they are going to have that feature, why not make it a user option to load them only when needed?

And another thing, I wish there was a way to save something without a blasted "shaderTree". Undoubtedly shaderTrees can be very usefull but I don't always need or want them, even in a figure, but why oh why do I have to have them in a magnet???

Quote - Yup, there's no point putting shadows on IBL lights anyway. AO yes, but not shadows.

what do you mean there is no point? the IBL light will cast shadows as if its an infinite light if you turn them on. the shadows are not created according to the ibl info, but it does correctly create shadows from the position and angle of the ibl light in 3d space.

most people simply assume it doesnt work, or doesnt work properly because "they heard it somewhere"

Yeah and speaking of defaults, it drives me nuts that every time you open or start a new Poser scene, when you go to load a texture it defaults to opening in the Poser installation textures folder.

That's if you've closed Poser down and reopened. Once opened, it remembers until the next time.

Why can't it just remember your last folder, or better yet, have the ability to set a content folder like Max, Maya, Lightwave....?
I don't keep my textures in the stupid installation runtime. I keep them all where I want them, on a dedicated HDD where I keep all my runtimes. That way when I reformat or something, I don't lose anything, because my runtime drive is also my drive for all my 3D stuff.

But no... Poser knows better than I do....

And also, in a new scene, when you go to save your render, it defaults to opening...yep, the installation directory runtime textures folder. Why on earth would I want to save my renders in a texture folder?
Hey, how about just remembering where it is I keep my renders, is that too much to ask?

It won't improve Poser's memory but the nifty little freeware utility Folder Guide will put your favorite folders only a click away in open/save dialogs (Windows only).

http://www.freeware365.com/desktop/folderguide.htm

('Rosity's link thingie not working so C&P) 

Hmmm I am not so sure I want to buy Poser Pro or 7 anymore. I was going to here in the next week or so, but I've been reading a lot of threads like this one in here, and well I don't see where any of these problems were ever addressed or resolved by the makers.

I see lots of work arounds, end users create/find/come up with. But I'm not all that interested in buying something,  I will then have to employ a ton of work arounds users create/find/come up with, just to get it to work as it should to start with. Anyone have some suggestions as to a similiar product to buy instead?

Quote -
Anyone have some suggestions as to a similiar product to buy instead?

No, and that's the problem. There IS nothing else similar. You'd think by now Autodesk would have stepped up and created the Super Poser I've been wanting all these years, but no...

And that's why Poser only improves from year to year in teeny tiny steps. No real competition, no real reason to go the extra  mile. Well, that and they're far more concerned with their precious Content "Paradise" than they are with the program itself.

I'm keeping an eye on Quidam. It ain't there yet, but I think they've at least taken note of Poser's shortcomings and aim to fill a much needed niche.

Well there's DAZ Studio, but....yeeeccchhhh...

Quote - It won't improve Poser's memory but the nifty little freeware utility Folder Guide will put your favorite folders only a click away in open/save dialogs (Windows only).

http://www.freeware365.com/desktop/folderguide.htm

('Rosity's link thingie not working so C&P) 

Thanks, that looks kinda cool. :-)

i also have a problem with poser PRO. i saved my skin shader from apollo max. then the next time i load the shader on the figure i need to again add the eye texture,lashes,... sometimes only the eye sometimes all.
why is this happening? this never happened with poser 7. and i didnt move the texture to a different folder.

i also sometimes used shadows on the IBL.

Naughty, naughty, Poser... I swear you do this just to annoy me. When are you going to grow up and start behaving yourself? Why can't you be more like Mr and Mrs Maxon's programs next door, or Mr and Mrs Autodesk's over the road? They are always SO well behaved.

Well, thanks for the giggle, guys. I'm outta here.

If any of you think that 3ds Max is Bug-Free, then guess again!
DPH

There's nothing wrong with expecting a program to act as it's supposed to. I don't expect Poser - even Poser "Pro" - to be anywhere near C4D or Maya, or Max or Lightwave, but I don't expect it to be half broken and half-assed, either.
Well, you'd think after all these years I should actually expect that. My bad.

Give some of those programs a try, like I and many others here have. Try the demos, use them to your full ability and learn as much as you can in the process. Then go back to Poser, and its deficiencies and bizarro quirks will be so obvious you'll wonder why you never noticed just how weak it actually is.

It has its place, and for as much as I hate it, it even has its place in some of what I do, because I've learned how to use it for a certain look I can get fairly easily. But when it slows me down and starts f**king with my saved scenes and changing shit on me at its own whims, then I'm gonna get pissed off.

I have learned Max, and even worked with it a bit.  As a modeler program, it's one of the best!  As a character animation program, though, nothing beats Poser for ease and facility!
DPH

Quote - If any of you think that 3ds Max is Bug-Free, then guess again!
DPH

Who said max is bug free? No programs are bug free. But all the successful bigtime 3D apps have evolved and matured considerably over the years, while Poser just kind of drags its ass along.
Too much time spent with the lawyers hashing out a price for the next buyer, and too little time in the development room with the programmers.

Quote - I have learned Max, and even worked with it a bit.  As a modeler program, it's one of the best!  As a character animation program, though, nothing beats Poser for ease and facility!
DPH

I dunno... Biped is pretty cool. I've messed around with max quite a bit over the years, particularly the last two years, using the demos. I have several computers, and you're allowed to install it on as many as you want, so I've taken advantage of that. ;-)
I love the material editor though. I may be the only one who does, but I've always found it to be pretty easy to deal with.

Quote - Who said max is bug free? No programs are bug free. But all the successful bigtime 3D apps have evolved and matured considerably over the years, while Poser just kind of drags its ass along.

Well to be fair big time apps get put through grueling projects that tend to expose all the bugs in them and their users are more then willing to pay their devs to fix them. Poser though, by nature of its userbase and its usage, neither gets this kind of battle testing, nor has users that would be willing to pay for service packs. So you end up whatever the devs can squeeze out of their limited budgets and/or any cheap tools they can license. That sort of thing will make any app "drag its ass along."

As for a solution to this, i dont really have one, but i bet it would start with making the Poser beta an open and inclusive affair, rather then the silly 'exclusive party' it is right now. Every new release of poser needs to be bashed, prodded and squeezed by a whole lot more people then is done currently, and esp by novice users who tend to find bugs way faster then anyone else. Even better would be a constant beta like D|S, 3DCoat or Lightwave have, with bug fixing and new features right upto a retail release. Wishful thinking i know, but one can hope :-)

And the MAX material editor is terrible ;-)

Quote - As for a solution to this, i dont really have one, but i bet it would start with making the Poser beta an open and inclusive affair, rather then the silly 'exclusive party' it is right now. Every new release of poser needs to be bashed, prodded and squeezed by a whole lot more people then is done currently, and esp by novice users who tend to find bugs way faster then anyone else.

I don't want to rain on the parade, but I'm not sure that would help. I'm a software developer, and the problem with a having a wide public beta is that most "novice users", as you say, don't know the difference between what programmers call a "bug" and what they just think is some dumb feature, or they see something that doesn't fit their workflow, and they call the whole program stupid.

Plus, people in a public beta usually get in public forums, like this one, and start out by discussing a bug, but eventually devolve into reciting publicly (for the umpteenth time) their wish lists for the software. Which is great, but it doesn't help the software people much.

A truly astounding amount of the developer's time can be spent sifting through these kinds of reports, trying to glean out the actualy problems reporting by people. Honestly, a much better approach is to require the programming staff to design tests to expose flaws (hard to do, it bruises their egos) and then hire experience software testers to hammer the software and report the things that don't work as designed (the only thing that a programmer thinks of as a "bug"), things that have a poor design or are difficult to use (which won't get changed by the time the program gets to beta) and recommendations for feature changes.

Really good software is usually developed by a handful (or less) of programmers who really love their creation, and who also like to use it.

Maybe we should all take up a collection and buy development rights to Poser from the current owner and fix it ourselves. Hmmm...

thank god that bagginsbill is a beta tester. at least this helps.

p.s. for interesting info. export poser props as OBJ files. and then load them in UVmapper. and then look what kind of UV maps they made.
seriously look what kind of UV's those props have.

Poser's original mission, if you recall, was to be able to pose digital mannequins as an artist's reference. Used in that way, Poser is great. It's the "refinement" of content and modules that has stifled its ease  of use (the aforementioned "workarounds").

I still feel that once one has grown tired of Poser's limitations that it may be time to step up to the next level. (Sucks teeth) oooh I forgot about the content, the main reason why people are hesitant to leave Poser behind. Like riding a bicycle, a whole new world of possibilities become available once one learns.

I have DAZ. It's ok I guess but I've been using it less often lately. Tried Quidam / MakeHuman. Both are ok for character creation but both lacking animation capability (the new Quidam can playback morph history like a player piano). I will always need Poser from time to time, but I've found doing my own modeling and rigging allows me to overcome things about Poser that irk me.

doesnt matter for what it was meant in the beginning. now is now. what is in the software should work.

Quote - ...the problem with a having a wide public beta is that most "novice users", as you say, don't know the difference between what programmers call a "bug" and what they just think is some dumb feature, or they see something that doesn't fit their workflow, and they call the whole program stupid.

IMO beta testing is not a game of quality, but quantity. A small handful of 'gurus' have a far less chance of catching bugs then a whole bunch of less advanced users by the simple laws of probability. Sure, the 'novices' may not be able to communicate the problem as nicely, but that's why we have the wonderful creature known as an 'intern' who can be made to sort through a whole mess of badly written reports for very little compensation ;-)

Quote - Plus, people in a public beta usually get in public forums, like this one, and start out by discussing a bug, but eventually devolve into reciting publicly (for the umpteenth time) their wish lists for the software. Which is great, but it doesn't help the software people much.

I agree that this can be a problem, but it's easily solved with some decent forum moderation. As long as TPB keep participants in line and direct the various threads properly they can become goldmines of information, not only for the devs but also fellow users. More advanced users can also be tasked to distill everything down to properly formatted bug reports that are then sent to the devs. That's how a proper 'community' works on a public beta and there's no reason why it cant be applied to poser.

The LightWave open betas have gone fairly well, but yeah, you get alot of that "this is what I want to see for the umpteenth time" stuff. Still, it works. Eventually. Sort of. ;-)

You guys are discussing this like there's some remote chance it could actually play out.  You're funny :)

Quote - You guys are discussing this like there's some remote chance it could actually play out.  You're funny :)

Why thank you! That's so kind of you to say.

:lol:

Hmmm, I got Poser 5 for free, and bought the upgrade to poser 6, Poser 7, and Poser Pro. I am likely to buy an upgrade to Poser Pro 8, if it is every really made. If pre-ordering the upgrade would get me a good price and an advanced copy, I would be glad to do menial beta testing tasks. And, if being a novice means that I would be more likely to find bugs, boy, am I the right guy for the job.

LMK