Quote - Poser and its users are not commercially  important to DAZ inc .,the commercial enterprise,  as they have their own Market paradigm now.

I call Bull $chit.

As long as there is profit to be made from poser users, Daz will do it.

also keep in mind that most of the products sold on Daz are not made by Daz. as long as vendors see profit in Poser products, Daz has no real control, if they try to cut off poser they will loose there suppliers.

if anything D|S and Poser are holding each other back by being so similar.

very few products take full advantage of their program's capabilities because content creators are trying to keep both customer bases buying a product that looks the same in both products.

 I disagree. I do think that as far as low-end apps go, D/S has begun to push Poser competitively. Of course it would be nice if D/S did more than 'ape" what Poser does and came up with some features of it's own.

Quote - if anything D|S and Poser are holding each other back by being so similar.

very few products take full advantage of their program's capabilities because content creators are trying to keep both customer bases buying a product that looks the same in both products.

DS3A and Poser 8 are actually starting to show some diversions. They both have different tools/options that differentiate from each other: Poser has the morph brush, but DS3A has a figure mixer; Ds3A can adapt skins between figures, but Poser still has the Python scripting that offers lots of possibilities. And other things. DS3A has caught up with Poser and is great competition. SM has shown a great deal more "hands on/quick fixes/listen to its user-base" than any other Poser developer ever has, so the future looks bright for both programs.

Daz isn't the only store out there. RDNA seems quite happy with selling items that are Poser-ONLY based, like Render Studio/Light Studio, Shaderworks python scripting and Poser-only shaders. D3D here at Renderosity and CP screates some awesome Poser-only add-ons as well. Sure, there will always be some Daz vendors that make DAZ only items, but many more will be compatible with both.

Except for the world economy, it's actually an exciting time for Poser and DS3A.

Now, if only Smith Micro would fix the scaling/conforming clothing bug in Poser... :)  But then, I would have to have Poser 8, and because of the economics of things, I have to pass until later this year for my upgrade.

But, dang, I wish I had either one. Both have features I wish I had in my P7.

-- Jeff

***"I call Bull $chit.
As long as there is profit to be made from poser users, Daz will do it.also keep in mind that most of the products sold on Daz are not made by Daz. as long as vendors see profit in Poser products, Daz has no real control, if they try to cut off poser they will loose there suppliers."

Hi Certainly you can see what a self contradictory statement that is. Correct DAZ Cannot control
what a non exclusive vendor chooses to do with regard to poser compatibility. So how would DAZ "lose suppliers"???
Any skilled merchant is free to support both DAZ studio and Poser regardless of weather DAZ chooses to or not with"Daz originals" like Freak4.

"if anything D|S and Poser are holding each other back by being so similar. very few products take full advantage of their program's capabilities because content creators are trying to keep both customer bases buying a product that looks the same in both products."

Very true  sir They can NOT possibly continue to remain the same.
But as we see with Freak4 this  %100 poser compatibilty apparently is no longer a major concern of DAZ.Inc.
I am not asserting that someone has to lead and someone has to follow  but when last I looked  it was Not DAZ promising a Fix for the DAZ Figure "scaling Issue"  with poser... it was Smith Micro.

Cheers

Quote -  I disagree. I do think that as far as low-end apps go, D/S has begun to push Poser competitively. Of course it would be nice if D/S did more than 'ape" what Poser does and came up with some features of it's own.

One area where think Daz has innovated is Character animation
(Albeit trough a third party Dev team)
The nonlinear "aniblock" System  in DAZ animated is as Good as the NLA motion clip system in Cinema4D and  Autodesk Softimage .
and the figure mixer,morph follower and built in Map transfer are other areas where poser cant compete at the moment.

Cheers

well i have used both Poser 5 and various versions of Studio and i find Studio far more intuitive to use. to me the Poser interface is very clunky and counterintuitive. the thing that is missing from Studio is a useful dynamic cloth facility. the Optitex dynamic cloth may be technically superior, but the files are huge and the cloth cannot be scaled.
(the Poser set-up is superior in that scaling seems to work.
plus you can usually take a conforming cloth into the cloth room and convert it to dynamic.)

plus Studio3 Advanced is already fully 64bit ( and not just the render engine )and only a few plug-ins are yet to be brought over. it has GI, IDL , comes with an HDR image converter for use in lightdomes ( IBL).
has a 'material room' ( shader mixer and shader builder ) i have no experience in these as yet, but by all accounts a lot of content developers have said it is easier to use than the Poser Material Room.
and with lights you can look through them to see exactly where they are aimed.

Quote - Correct DAZ Cannot control what a non exclusive vendor chooses to do with regard to poser compatibility. So how would DAZ "lose suppliers"???
Any skilled merchant is free to support both DAZ studio and Poser regardless of weather DAZ chooses to or not with"Daz originals" like Freak4.

If (in theory) Daz were to produce a base figure that was not compatible with Poser, they would loose suppliers because the suppliers would most likely prefer to produce products for figures that can be used in both programs because it would give them a larger customer base.

Quote -
If (in theory) Daz were to produce a base figure that was not compatible with Poser, they would loose suppliers because the suppliers would most likely prefer to produce products for figures that can be used in both programs because it would give them a larger customer base.

Hi as a merchant myself i must say your theory this does not make any business sense...at all.
If ,for example, one had the skills to make a Daz Studio+Poser Compatible product for V4 in the first place.
Then suddenly Leaving the entire DAZ Content Market Due to some future  "V5" not working in poser is commercial
Suicide.

You would be left with only poser users
as clients. while every other merchant cashed in on the New,predictable "V5" DAZ feeding frenzy as well as still producing poser content and competing with you there.

Cheers
 

Err, not to get in the middle of you two, but that's pretty much what the vendors actually do (pick one or the other app to give almost all support efforts to).  There are very few vendors who try to do anything advanced with D|S materials, anything more than the most basic texture and specular (the place where they diverge the most, right now).

 Wolf,

Do you realize that you just disagreed with someone and then stated the exact same point?

Quote - Err, not to get in the middle of you two, but that's pretty much what the vendors actually do (pick one or the other app to give almost all support efforts to).  There are very few vendors who try to do anything advanced with D|S materials, anything more than the most basic texture and specular (the place where they diverge the most, right now).

Right off hand I can only name Animate and Optitex as producing DS only product.

Quote -  Wolf,

Do you realize that you just disagreed with someone and then stated the exact same point?

What point was that??

Cheers

Quote - Err, not to get in the middle of you two, but that's pretty much what the vendors actually do .

So you are saying a Daz compatible only Figure 'V7, M7" or whatever would be supported by the usual D/S vendors.
and there are no/Few Dual platform venders to lose anyway...

Sounds logical to me.

Cheers

Lucifer_The_Dark wrote:

Quote - Why does DS insist on hiding my installed content behind a hundred button presses that lead to dead ends?

It doesn't. Try learning how to use the program. There are a lot of great tutorials on how to use DAZ Studio over at DAZ.
**
EClark1894 wrote**:

Quote - If Poser disappeared tomorrow, how long do you think it would be before DAZ stopped giving away D/S for free? Heck, they've pretty much already stopped.

No, they haven't. Care to qualify that statement?

EClark1894 wrote:

Quote - Only the basic renderer is free now. Everything else cost money.

Only the basic renderer is free? :laugh: There's a whole lot more than just a basic renderer in the free version. :rolleyes:  Man, you're waaaaaaay out of the loop.

EClark1894 wrote:

Quote - Of course it would be nice if D/S did more than 'ape" what Poser does and came up with some features of it's own.

It does. But of course you wouldn't know that, since you admit yourself that.......

EClark1894 wrote:

Quote - I admit that I barely know D/S. Heh, I can't even find my content library much less figure out how to put anything else in it.

Coldrake

P.S. You can find the content library by clicking on the Content tab.:biggrin:

Hey Wolfman, it's all good. I like your clear cut, incisive  way of looking at things I just think that sometimes the tone gets in the way of the message - but that's just me. In this case, unless you're privy to sales figures for DS  vs. Poser, know how many of the free DS downloads are actively being used or can divine the future, I don't see the basis for your view. Perhaps you are correct but I'd want to see more data points than one buggy figure to conclude an inexorable trend. I would expect Daz to implement features that show off their application to best advantage, even if it means producing two versions. I just don't expect them to produce a DS only 'V5' with no Poser counterpart. They've just started selling DS. It seems unlikely that its sales will reach a point in the near term that would allow them to write off Poser compatibility.

I see this as more of a Microsoft-Apple thing. I doubt that Microsoft gets a significant percentage of their Office revenue from the Mac version but they continue to support a dedicated Mac development program. They know that Mac users aren't going to switch to Windows and they'd rather have a bigger pie than a smaller one, as long as the Mac unit makes a profit. Now if they saw an opportunity to do a Netscape and kill off Poser that would be different, but Poser has proven to be nothing if not resilient. Until then, I would bet that Daz believes in the old saying, 'never leave money on the table.'

Are you a Heinlein fan BTW?

 Hey, Coldrake. I don't mind being proven wrong. But if you're going to do it, you need to do more than say "No, it isn't!"   You need to tell me why I'm wrong. 

I can only use DS 2. whatever. DS3 won't load on my computer. I can't figure it out really.  All I can really find is the basic renderer, and at least that is staring me in the face. When I can find something to load from the library I literally stumbled upon, All I can do is render.

Can't animate anything. Can't use dynamic cloth, Can't set up a figure. Can't use wind force. Can't create hair.

Can't get rid of them stupid bounding boxes. That was one of the first things I ever figure out in Poser. I sat there for like two minutes clicking on a body part and wondering why I couldn't select it. I honestly can't remember what the problem was, but somehow I did figure it out.

Plus the fact, that I'm on a Mac so a couple of features aren't even made for me.

I don't care whether you use D/S or Poser, really. I DO care that I use Poser and frankly, if Poser were to go out of business tomorrow. I'd simply keep using the version I have now.

I know that there are people who love D/S. God bless 'em, more power to them. 

I'm just not one of them.

Any program that frustrates me as much as DS does gets ignored until i feel the urge to be frustrated some more, so yeah, I barely know DS.

 I'm not going to participate in this thread or anymore like it. It's one of he reasons why I don't like hanging around the DAZ forums now. That Poser vs. DS schism. What's more I'm mad at myself for contributing to it.

Quote - So you are saying a Daz compatible only Figure 'V7, M7" or whatever would be supported by the usual D/S vendors.
and there are no/Few Dual platform venders to lose anyway...

You can choose to interpret it that way, and I can't stop you, but I'm saying the opposite:  the more that the two apps diverge, the fewer content creators will bother to try to support both platforms.  Right now, it's only a bit of a chore to set up DAZ|Studio materials.  If you can live without advanced materials (all the free D|S users fall in this category) then you can use all content for both applications.  If the two apps' content becomes completely incompatible, the amount of work the content maker has to do for a given item increases, possibly a lot, and many content makers won't do it.  Everyone loses.  Users, content makers, brokers like Rendo and DAZ.

Quote -

Are you a Heinlein fan BTW?

No sir IMHO Heinlein was a person who believed there should be a ruling class of intellectual elite
to lord over the Great
"unwashed Masses" Through Military Superiority.

His views seem to border on Facism.

Cheers

Quote -
If the two apps' content becomes completely incompatible, the amount of work the content maker has to do for a given item increases, possibly a lot, and many content makers won't do it.  Everyone loses.  Users, content makers, brokers like Rendo and DAZ.

Well thats one theory But does'nt Daz have an official SDK for third paryt developers??( not sure)
and DAZ has an inhouse content Dev team. So I personally think DAZ has Very little to lose from Diverging from poser compatibility which is inevitable if DAZ wants to move forward
and embrace modern standards.
just my opinion.

Cheers

Quote -
Any program that frustrates me as much as DS does gets ignored until i feel the urge to be frustrated some more, so yeah, I barely know DS.

Well said.
That's about the way I felt about it as I watched the Windows uninstaller erase it from my machine last time. ;-)

Quote - and DAZ has an inhouse content Dev team.

and what have they done lately?

I can't seem to find anything but the base figures and their initial "starter pack" with DAZ as the creator.

Even at that Freak 4 and Hiro 4 are credited to others.

Quote - > Quote - and DAZ has an inhouse content Dev team.

and what have they done lately?

I can't seem to find anything but the base figures and their initial "starter pack" with DAZ as the creator.

Even at that Freak 4 and Hiro 4 are credited to others.

Hi my point is that DAZ  is not %100 percent dependent on outside contractors for content ( figures props etc.)
so as they theoreticly diverge from Poser compatibility the transition could be less harmful as they have inhouse dev teams as well as an  official SDK ( Not Cheap!!)

But again Poser has Python which is free
So there is always potential for third party
Add ons for the  poser app itself.

Cheers

Quote - I doubt that Microsoft gets a significant percentage of their Office revenue from the Mac version but they continue to support a dedicated Mac development program.

Actually, with Apple growing strong (they have 10% of the US market now, double what they had 3 years ago) and PC sales stagnant-to-dropping, Microsoft does make more than just a bit o' change from their Mac Business Unit. It's enough that Microsoft stopped farting around and are including a full Exchange/Outlook client in their upcoming version... something they've adamantly avoided up to now.

Even Microsoft has to aim for where the puck is going if it intends to survive long-term. ;)

Quote - Until then, I would bet that Daz believes in the old saying, 'never leave money on the table.'

Agreed.

check your facts, Wolf359. the SDK is now free ( both of them, the little one which allows you to unlock certain things and write utility scripts and the main one which allows you to rewrite the actual code of the app, if you want, plus create plug-ins  etc)

Quote - check your facts, Wolf359. the SDK is now free ( both of them, the little one which allows you to unlock certain things and write utility scripts and the main one which allows you to rewrite the actual code of the app, if you want, plus create plug-ins  etc)

Thats Good to hear !!!
I obviously googled  to an Old link
Thanks for the Correct info

Cheers

in case anyone who would like the SDK's but cannot find them, here's the link.
www.daz3d.com/i/software/daz_studio3/developer

Yep, the SDK is free - they were able to do that after Nokia/Trolltech removed head from arse and stopped their draconic licensing terms for Qt, which in turn allowed DAZ to make their SDK free.

Well, I´m mainly a Poser user and only had DAZ-Studio for Brice addon. But I also bought the Advanced Version when it came out. I think the advanced version is also a very good programe and I´m sure it will become better and better when time goes on.
But in the moment I still prefere Poser as I think it still has the better result after rendering.Of course, with Poser I also know how to handel something for best result, but I think this is becourse I start with Poser many years ago.

Quote - Even at that Freak 4 and Hiro 4 are credited to others.

They should probably rethink how they display those credits

1. For the record: despite the title of this thread, I was never asking the question whether I should CHOOSE BETWEEN Poser 8 and Daz Studio Advanced. I have P8 and will use it. I basically wanted to know if I would find the power of DSA compelling enough to use it as well. But I'm well aware that threads take on a life of their own.

2. DAZ has emphatically NOT reduced what they give away for free. DS3 Free has more functionality than any previous version. And just because you have problems on your system doesn't mean DAZ isn't giving anything away anymore, any more than some people having problems with P8 means Smith Micro is not interested in selling Poser anymore. The DS situation is more like a car company that has a basic auto that they imrpove year by year, but then also come out with a ramped up more expensive model. In comparison to the pricier model, duh, the value-priced car lacks features. But that doesn't alter the fact that it itself continues to get better.

As for speculation on the future, who cares? None of us know squat about tomorrow, much less whether Poser or DS will be around fives years from now.

So I try to give you a better answer as I use both: YES you can use  DAZ Advanced too. It is worth to buy it that you can work with both programs in change ;-)

"His views seem to border on Facism."  Agreed.

Quote - I basically wanted to know if I would find the power of DSA compelling enough to use it as well. But I'm well aware that threads take on a life of their own.

I was also looking for more insight on the elements of DSA that would make it worth learning. The different interface still keeps me away. Without having a solid reason to learn it, I'm more likely to take the time to learn Hexagon modeling than a program that will only do things similar to Poser. That's not a knock against DSA--it's more the limits of my available free time. I'd rather spend it learning something completely new that I cannot do right now (modeling) than something that is only mildly different than what I already know.

As far as guessing at the future, my bet is that the two programs will remain reasonably compatible with figures and props--with DAZ having to make the most concessions since DS is the new kid on the block. DAZ has released very few figures and props that will only work in DS. As far as I can tell, DAZ releases more Bryce and Carrara-only props, that are unique to those programs, than similar DS-only content. Things can change, but it seems unlikely that the two products will become incompatible. DAZ Studio is picking up a lot of new users because it is free. Poser has the older user base and I'd guess still the larger one based on the percentages of free and paid content being made. I'm seeing more and more DS-only freebies, so it's clear that its user base is growing. Unless Poser is abandoned, or DS completely overtakes Poser in capabilities, it's not likely that new content will fully diverge in the future. At a minimum, both will still have some past version of compatibility.

Quote - 1. For the record: despite the title of this thread, I was never asking the question whether I should CHOOSE BETWEEN Poser 8 and Daz Studio Advanced. I have P8 and will use it. I basically wanted to know if I would find the power of DSA compelling enough to use it as well. But I'm well aware that threads take on a life of their own.

I dont have Poser 8...I am still using 7 right now....I have used Poser consistently since version 4 and have built content for Poser for nearly 10 years.
I have DSA as well...is it better than Poser? well IMO probably yes!!
Definitely in some areas...the 3 Delight renderer is a better renderer than the Firefly period, if someone tells you differently they havent learnt both renderers thoroughly.
The 3 Delight renderer is used in SI XSI and Maya and other hi end apps and is used for many movies (chronicles of Narnia...Superman returns, it is an incredibly accurate renderer...far more accurate than the Firefly renderer (but its a good idea to set the shading rate down to 0.2 or thereabouts to get the best results)
Now the Firefly is a great renderer for portraits and the like (and many users get stunning renders from it...that is a fact) but not that good for large scenes, I could write pages on the reason why...but I wont , suffice to say...you wont see the 3 Firefly renderer used in Maya or SI XSI or Max etc..
Thats reason enough to use DSA.
Then theres the subject of interface customization...Poser has set rooms...in DSA by learning how to customize the interface you can have as many rooms as you like dedicated to different tasks...like lighting, rigging, texturing etc.. not only that but each of these rooms can have a different tool set, and directory content location specified on the hard drive to load from.
What that means is you dont have to navigate from one content directory to another, it can be set to load from DS content as well as Poser content etc...each one from a different room...and screen layout etc...is all customizable in each room.
In this area its light years ahead of Poser...and even many DS users dont know about these features in DS.

The dynamic cloth in DSA although good is too exclusive IMO tho...I prefer the Poser dynamic cloth, and also I like the usabilty of the Poser shaders as well, so I wont be ditching Poser, but it is taking a back seat more and more.

To see some of the renders in DS I put a link to a city I recently built and rendered in DS...hit the thumb, then the magnifying glass to see a full view of each pic, then F11 to switch to full screen.

Andoria-City!
Cheers

Quote -
I was also looking for more insight on the elements of DSA that would make it worth learning. The different interface still keeps me away.

It did me at first too ( as a long time Poser user)...BUT read my post above!
All you have to do is get used to the Activity Tabs (the equivalent of a Poser room) but about a hundred times more versatile.

Quote -
Without having a solid reason to learn it, I'm more likely to take the time to learn Hexagon modeling than a program that will only do things similar to Poser. That's not a knock against DSA--it's more the limits of my available free time. I'd rather spend it learning something completely new that I cannot do right now (modeling) than something that is only mildly different than what I already know.

DSA offers many things that compliment and empower a Poser user actually...I use both.
Personally I much prefer the 3 Delight renderer (as mentioned above) and I use DSA more than Poser now.
But I like both and DSA is not that hard to learn...4 or 5 hard days will get you well on the way.
As far as Hexagon goes...you can model anything in it.
I have used it since it was a beta by Eovia ...well before Daz bought it...its an awesome app, and many many users that use it...still prefer it over Modo, and many other modeling apps, its very powerful, yet easy to use....definitely worth learning.
Daz have neglected it somewhat and they cop a lot of flak on the forums about this...they have closed a few down LOL!!
But they are starting to get the message, this is one of the best modelers out there and they need to realize that and build on it.
Cheers
Hmann

http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/hjmann/
http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/hjmann/Andoria-Night/

You've made me more interested in giving DS a try, but even more to spend some time in Hexagon. I'm always amazed when a company spends a lot of money to buy a product only to essentially abandon it. Corel still upgrades Painter, but doesn't put much effort into promoting it--they seem to prefer Paintshop Pro. Corel has just about abandoned Kai's Power Tools, but it still has some excellent filters that have yet to be beat by any newer Photoshop Plug-in.

I think DS is a better program, it allows you to create bryce like worlds in your renderings, it also has a interesting dynamic hair feature.

But there is a learning curve to DS as it is very different from poser in some ways, I also think it is alot slower but well worth the wait.

Huh? DS doesn't have dynamic hair....

 Tucan Tiki ... are you talking about Carrara or DAZ Studio?  

I'm using both; Poser is my main animation app, due to the very flexible dynamics, but the DS3 animation controls and Animate make it worth adding to the toolkit (and no Wolf, I haven't joined the dark side; I'm just snatching a cookie occasionally.... :P ). DS has gotten advanced enough to fit into my pipeline, so it gets the chance to prove its worth there. That is really what matters....if the tool does the job you need.