Attached Link: http://www.curiouslabs.com

Hello. I've read all of the posts about our forthcoming security measures and the pros and cons thereof. First of all, I completely understand the reactions of those who question the wisdom/motives of implementing some sort of software protection. At face value, security measures have the potential to make life miserable for those it was designed to protect. After all, a deadbolt will trap a family inside a burning home just as easily as it will keep a thief outside. Thankfully, those occasions are rare and there are ways to prevent them from happening. But the lock analogy is an excellent one. Let's talk about locks... What is the one thing we all do whenever we enter or leave our house, car, business, etc? What do we all do at work when we fire up our computers in the morning, leave for lunch, come back after a meeting, etc? That's right: We pause to arm or disarm security measures (such as locks or passwords). Every day, we subconsciously interact with security devices that exist to protect our hard earned assets. How many of you leave your front door unlocked and your TV in full view? Look at your keychain. I have access to my 4 vehicles, 3 houses (1 mine and 2 friends), my place of work, safe deposit box... Every day, I lug around about a half pound of metal and always check to make sure it is glued to me. As I type this, I am looking at a $200 plastic box containing hardware designed to keep intruders at bay. And, I posess several other pieces of machinery whose sole purpose is to blow holes of varying sizes in targets of varying descriptions. Am I some kind of nut case? That is both off topic and open to spirited debate, but stop and think: I am hardly unique. How many of you own keys, access cards, firewalls, passwords, PINs, firearms, Mace, baseball bats, etc? Why do we do this? Because there are those among us who have no problem helping themselves to what we honest folks have worked our tuchuses off to obtain. It is a truly sad fact that we are constantly on guard against the parasites of society. Very large portions of our society and economy are geared towards nothing but protecting ourselves against our peers. Look at Verisign, ADT, Schlage, Smith & Wesson... So who gets screwed? I submit that each and every one of us who has ever bought a lock or any device remotely associated with protection falls under the "legitimate but screwed" category. How many of us have left our homes unlocked, our doors wide open until the day our stereo and other possessions vanish before finally knuckling under and buying a locking doorknob? On the contrary, 99.999% of us probably buy the lock first, long before the RCA goes walkabout. In a perfect world, we should be able to open our doors and windows wide and proudly display our worldy goods for all to see, safe in the knowledge that our stuff, our precious stuff, will be there when we return. Sadly, as we know, that is not the case. Curious Labs falls under the first category. We went the perfect world route and released PPP sans protection. The rest, as they say, is history. We are now in the position of having been robbed almost blind and having to do something about it. If your houses were robbed, how many of you would go out the next morning and buy beefier deadbolts? I thought so. We are in the same boat, unfortunately. I need to digress to say that I am not trying to preach. I am simply drawing a logical comparison. We all act in a protective mode day in and day out, and security issues occupy a disproportionate amount of our time, energy, and money. It's a tragic commentary on the human animal and condition. It's also reality. What we have done with the Pro Pack Service Release is no different than installing a deadbolt on the front door. However, unlike a deadbolt that requires conscious effort to lock and unlock every time, our security measures require only one effort per machine under normal circumstances. Imagine a deadbolt that learns who you are and lets you pass without having to stop and open each time. Same thing, kind of. What happens when you upgrade? On the chance you need to re-register, go ahead and do it! Does the presence of a deadbolt on your front door make you less receptive to the many honest folks (from guests to the UPS man) who routinely arrive chez vous? No! Just because we have measures in place does NOT mean we are suddenly on a witch hunt! So you install the update and register. All we need is a unique code, either online or via email or phone. No Internet connection required. That's it. We give you a unique answer, and you're good to go. And, when you register, we get some information (which we keep confidential) to go along with the s/n. Need to reregister (say if you buy a new machine and reinstall)? No sweat! Simply let us know who you are and your serial number. We will 'match the name with the face', and you're up and running. For those who complain about an added measure or something on your drive: Think about every car, house, etc. you've ever gotten. What was the single pivotal moment? Getting the keys (security devices uniquely tailored to the specific item being protected)! Those locks remain a part of your house/car/etc. You have probably seen Kupa's posts about half of Pro Pack copies being illegitimate. Think about that. Given the $149 price, that means that every legitimate Pro Pack purchase equates to every legitimate user to essentially make a $75 donation to pay for the thieves. I am not saying Pro Pack would be $75 without piracy, but realize that the thieves are those causing your problems. Without thieves, why buy locks? They have made the problem so large that we must take steps to stay alive. Why? If CL goes out of business, who really gets it? You, the legitmate community who least deserves it, that's who! You would not let a thief waltz into your home. Why your computer? Anthony Hernandez Sr. Tech Writer Curious Labs

I'll have to agree with your comments, Anthony... well though out and well spoken. An unfortunate predicament this has put us in (all of us). My primary concern is that having to go through this hassle will be worth it (i.e. the issues which have been mentioned on the forums, as well as the issues which you and i discussed privately) are addressed wholly as the primary concern even before Security of the product. I mean, why go to the trouble of taking your keys out of the ignition and locking up your car if the thing doesn't run anyway? Or at leats won't get any further then around the block without the engine sputtering to a halt. You wouldn't bother, even though you still fail to understand why it doesn't run. You filled it with the same oil and the same Gas you used in the previous model of the same car. Now, if you instead told me that you were going to replace the Transmission that was causing my problems, and could show me examples of the same car running fine with the new tranny, then I'd gladly take your new transmission, takes my keys, start her up, and lock her up as soon as I got out of the car, setting the Alarm and closing the Garage door when I got out. But without the tranny, why bother? Anyway, I hope this metaphor helps to explain my position on this.

I agree this is a hassel, I already have one program that does something similar. I am also wondering when I will be able to register my Poser 4 at Curious Labs site, The message "We are in the process of constructing an online registration form for owners of Poser 1, 2, 3, and 4." has been up since fall. It seems like it's the illegitamate users that have gotten your attention while those of us who have bought Poser have been waiting an eternity to register it at the website. It seems that those of us that have actually paid for Poser are being neglected.

Hi Anthony, great explaination of your point of view but unfortunately I can not aggree. I'm not very happy about any software protection because they are almost useless but waste my time. But I love poser and would accept any resonable protection system if you can make one thing sure: I don't want to be forced to have any further contact to the supplier after I've register the product. No supplier have the right to know when I change my machines, have a HD crash or the like. To take your house exaple: How would you feel, if you have to change all keys of your house everytime you buy a new chair? How would you call it if you could get these new keys just from one company so that they'll know all about the changes made in your house? Sorry, but I would call the situation "1984" and the company "Big Brother". I can't tolerate such an assault to my rights as a costumer so CL let me no choice as to remove them from my supplier list. regards Thomas

Hey! I lock my house because it's my house. Don't go asking me to give you the keys to my computer to protect the houses of your shareholders - and then tell me it's the natural thing to do! The people who buy Poser, pay your dividends, and those who use illegal copies don't. That's your problem - period. Do you really expect us to believe that if your sales doubled the price of Poser would half? You've got a conflict between customer satisfaction and protection of profits. Jump whichever way you feel is best for your shareholders, but don't try bamboozling us with soothing (and fallonius) arguements. angola

I can agree with your reasoning Anthony 100%. However, comparing your security measures to a deadbolt is wrong in this instance. For a start, I can find and remove or change the deadbolt when ever I wish, without waiting for a carpenter to give me the tools. Regards, Cheeers

Hi Anthony! I think all these threads are a good thing for the Poser community, I'm sure you see our concern. The bottom line is that while the software locks protect Curious Labs' investment, it is surely going to hurt your sales, as many are going to wait-and-see rather than rush out and buy the product. I surely am, I've always been the last on the block to do any upgrade anyway, and this scares me. You guys are going to have to weigh the sales you are going to loose from warez aginst the delayed and lost sales from the lock, as surely their will be some, not to mention the loss of goodwill. Oh, for a simpler time when people were honest!

I REALLY appreciate that Curious is going to continue your dual platform policy. I do almost all my work on my Mac, but have a little PC for PC-only apps (and the only machine I connect to the web). One thing I use it for is Mimic - which requires an installed copy of Poser. Of course, I haven't had to patch it, never mind install ProPack, so won't need an activation code for now. Still, it's reassuring to see the dual platform notice. Can't tell you how relieved I am that you've gone the activation code route over hardware dongles. I mentioned elsewhere about a workgroup I was part of that shared a Max dongle between machines that managed to slip into an obscure nook. I don't ever want to spend another couple days like that, digging through drawers and trash, looking suspiciously at everyone. When we found it we attached a big orange fishing float to the damn thing. Of all the apps I work with, have to tell you Poser is one of my steady favorites. Hope this is all soon settled so you can focus on Poser 5!

Ummm...that is about as silly an analogy as I ever heard. I own the key to my house. I own the key to my car. If I had to call the car company every time I wanted to unlock my car, I wouldn't have bought it. If I had to call the people I bought my house from every time I wanted to unlock my house, I wouldn't have bought it either. Sorry, you just lost another customer.

Anthony, I'll grant it's a good analogy, and I certainly grant that you need to do something, but there is one mistake in your deadbolt analogy. You have the keys, to the deadbolt on your front door. We meaning the users of poser(I don't have the pro pack, yet) wouldn;t have that key you would. So how does your analogy work there. In the case of your analogy, it means that you go to work, the door locks, you come home and someone from a company that made the door has to come and unlock it for you. After the first time the company did so, or a "reasonable" number of times, the door would "magically" open at your will, and lock behind you provided nothing in your house has been changed. However, if you like to redecorate your house on a regular basis, then the door will not open and the door making company will look into it on a case by case basis, to see if you are deserving of opening the door or not. That seems to me to be why people are upset. You wish to hold their door keys, and since computer components are often "redecorated" or upgraded from choice or due to failure, there seems to be a big chance of a lot of the case by case basis, and the resultant ill will.

D'oh. did my previous post show?

And you own poser ... It isn not calling them everytime you want to start poser/unlock your door. It is calling them everytime you move. Like moving your house you would need new keys. Same thing as moving computers except it takes a lot less work to send a 30 second e-mail.

And, when you register, we get some information (which we keep confidential) to go along with the s/n.<<< So now, in addition to imposing a burdensome and "disaster waiting to happen" security system on your users, you also want "... some information..." which you will, of course, keep "confidential." What information? Other than the serial number of the product and my name you should not need anything else. Anything else is an additional intrusion into the privacy of your customers and, quite frankly, none of your **** business. You just gave me another reason not to continue with Poser. But I did like how you slipped that little comment about "... we get some information..." in there. I am sure most people did not even take notice of it. And your analogy is skewed. I don't have to call Saturn everytime I change my battery to start the ignition. I don't have to call my realtor everytime I change the color of the den to get into my house. As I stated in a different thread, since August of last year I have upgraded systems four times. I am building a fifth upgrade. I would hazard a guess that five upgrades in a year is a few more than what most go through. I do not feel I should have to answer a "court of inquiry" just because I have upgraded my system more often than what CL believes to be "reasonable." There may be a court involved, but it most certainly would not be one of CL's choosing.

Basically my post that went into never-never land went along most everyone's lines. I DO NOT LIKE THIS IDEA. There are alternatives. Hardware dongles (ughh) with an added cost *unique keys that do require a one-time registration - that way if copies show up in wareze then you know who to sue. I have already decided against other software for this very reason (Office XP and I heard Windows XP). What about the people who sell Poser-related items? DAZ3D? The Artists in the stores? You are cutting your customer base. They will have less people to buy their stuff. Warez people will find a way around this. Trust me. Key Generators? You think of a program that has a key-based system, someone - somewhere wrote a key-generator that opens the program up. Most of us are geeks. We change something on our system all the time. What about us? What if we have a dual-boot system and have Poser installed under each one? I think I heard that CL gave a school a site license for Poser. um...what about them? What do they do if something hapens to a computer and they lose access to the internet and none have a modem in them. (Their internet access could be based on a fed. grant or something) Personally, I don't think the deadbolt analogy gets it. Let's try this one. i bought a great door from this company. I mean this is a nice door. But it isn't squared off and they forgot the peephole. I call the company and they come out, square the door, and put in a peephole. Now they are worried about me and theft so, instead of my normal doorknob and locking mechanism, they put on one of those doorknobs with the 5-button combo code. Now this is a special doorknob, it randomizes its combo whenever it notices that the door has been moved to another house or if the house has been changed (redecorating, painting, etc.). Now to get into my house, I have to call the Door Manufacturers for my new Passcode. Would you want a door like that? Me either. I would start looking for a new door. DonnyD http://www.donnyd.com

I have read all these related post and feel I should comment. First it is obviuos to me that most people who have posted do not own more expensive 3D apps. The more expensive 3D apps not only have a dongle you must use but require you to go through the same key code procedure Curious Labs is proposing. Dongles can be a pain in the ass. If they die you need to get a new one which can take several weeks. I think the direction Curious labs is moving in is not all that bad. It will slow down warez but not eliminate it. I understand their need to do this. If they dont you might as well kiss Poser goodbye. What does that mean? Well if you have an extra $5,000 lying around you can purchase Max and Character Studio have to deal with a dongle and a key code. I support Curious Labs efforts. Every major software vendor is implementing or has implemented similar procedures. Ron

No offense to you all, but this is really not much different than what we all go through with..say..our credit cards. Anytime I want to do something, like check my account, or change something on my account, I have to go through a security check in. Social Security number, mother's maiden name...whatever. I agree that any sort of security device is a pain in the ass, but what is the alternative....no poser at all, no programs created by the smaller companies, because they can't fight the warez sites. You are correct, we own the program, but don't we also own our bank accounts and the money inside them? To get to that money, we have to prove to the bank just who the hell we are. This really is no different. It protects them, protects us (by allowing us new and better software that doesn't always come from the big guys) and as long as it isnt' overly intrusive, is fine with me. Dragontales

Dragon: Very well said! :-) Anthony

I think if CL want to protect their products, a good start would be to provide printed manuals, and definitely not include PDF manuals on the CD or available as downloads. Pirates may spend time trying to break codes, but they are unlikely to type up a copy of the manual to go with it. How useful would the PPP be without a manual? Whilst there are PDF copies of the manuals around they will likely get copied along with the software, and give the pirates what is effectively a full package. Whilst printed manuals may cost a little to produce no doubt the software protection system is costing something anyway. Ian

Dragontales, true. But if I want to make more than 3 withdrawals or deposits to my account I do not have to go through "hoops" to prove that it is my account. I have yet seen anything from CL to assure me that after I purchase I would not have to do just that after my third system upgrade and request for serial number. And I will do a third upgrade very quickly. I have done four in the past nine months alone.

I don't see where it would matter. Anthony, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you upgrade more than three times, I would think that would just require you to call, most likely give your name and serial number, just as you did the first time, and they would then issue you a new security code. I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure that it's not like three times and you have to buy another one, or send photocopies of the box, etc. True, if it was like that, I'd agree with you, but I don't really consider a five or ten minute phone call (if it is even that long) jumping through hoops. CL has to know that people upgrade all the time and if there is any sort of limitation for the user, they will here about if by lost sales. Dragontales

Dragon, you are absolutely correct. This is NOT a "three strikes you're out" thing! Maybe that was everyone's concern?? :-) Anthony

Anthony, From Steve Yatson in the thread titled "About the Poser Protection" - "Let me clarify. You can register each serial# 3 times." Which part of that am I not understanding?

Hi I've owned a copy of Poser since version 2 and I fully understand CL need to protect themselves, but I really have a problem that in that I purchased the PPP, which to say the least is buggy, when it was first released. Now to get the bug-fix update when it's released I have to start using CL protection scheme...I don't like the idea of having something on my machines that I can't delete if the need arises. I work mainly with animations. I seem to go through hard drives almost like TP, so I'm constantly installing new drives. I don't like the idea of having to call home every time I upgrade or change out a drive. CL keeps saying this will be painless..it's never painless to have to keep calling home to check in and see if it's ok to use the software I paid for. As it stands now I probably will not upgrade my PPP and will probably uninstall it and see what kind of coaster it will make. The same goes for a new version of Poser. The sad part is I really enjoy the program. Ed

And, when you register, we get some information (which we keep confidential) to go along with the s/n.<<< And I still would appreciate an answer to my question as to what information you intend to get to "... go along with the s/n."

Ok, for everyone that's supported the idea of the proposed change, there seems to be this general ignoring of a certain point: it's the principle! This is compromising privacy, conveniency, and is generally annoying. We don't want to have to go through this hassle, and yes, like some, I don't have those expensive programs that hassle you. I can't afford them, I'll be the first to admit it, but it's the principle here that makes me not like this system (on top of potential problems). All of these door analogies are driving the point home, but CL doesn't seem to see the point, or at least don't agree with it. This isn't a $5000 piece of software, this is a $200 one, and well, this is quite a security measure for its price range, especially considering that it won't work. No security is infallible. It may delay warez copies, but it won't prevent them. Besides, would those people have bought it anyway? I don't want to jump through hoops. I don't want a program hiding information on my computer. I don't want a program keeping tabs on what I do to my comptuer. I don't want my privacy to be compromised. I REALLY don't want to have to get permission to reinstall if I change my system around "more [times] than is reasonable" (and I do). That amounts to looking for another solution for my hobby. It's that simple, although I wish it wasn't, since I really like the product. And to anyone wondering about my Cooper reference, read Mark Twain's criticisms on James Fenimore Cooper. It's a riot! (Although, it helps to have read Cooper first. :))

I have been reading every single post over the past few days (that's over 100) on this subject and formulating replies in my head after every one. Now that I reached the bottom of this one I'm too tired to post any major reply. ;-) However, in short ... Sorry, but the analogy does not work at all, mainly because it is NOT protecting me, it is protecting YOU (CL) ... nd poorly at that! Could not agree more on the MANUAL IDEA ... and for heaven's sake, include a REAL manual with Poser 5 more than just for security reasons. If you want to make a PDF as well, great ... but for all that is righteous and good, PLEASE INCLUDE A PHYSICAL MANUAL. -Tim