I can understand the usefulness of loose dynamic clothing because it can move with a character's body. Conforming dresses look fine on a figure standing up, but don't often look natural in many other poses such as sitting or kneeling.

Bikinis tightly fit on the body, so I can't see much value in using dynamic cloth there. I suppose there might be some need in animation if breast morphs are moving them as part of the animation. A well-made bikini will have the same morphs as the base figure, so should have the same degree of movement. It's hard to understand where there might be something more useful by having a dynamic bikini.

Yet, DAZ is selling a dynamic bikini for Poser and DS, but the descriptions don't offer any advantages over conforming bikinis.

In my view, that's laziness of the creator so as not to need to rig it and insert morphs into it. Sorry if this seems rude, but I can see no advantage of offering a dynamic version of something that's completely skin-tight.

Actually, you can get quite a few advantages. You can have strings/ties that move in animations. You can have underwear that give natural stretches and folds.

I absolutely disagree with you Afrodite.

Take for example a pair of tights. When they stretch over say the butt, it creates a stretch, with creases that changes naturally when you move the legs into different position, something that is much harder to achieve with conforming clothing. Even tight clothing gets creases.  I use almost exclusively dynamic clothing, not out of laziness, but because I get results I find to be far more natural looking. It can look absolutely amazing. 

With tops like tight shirts you can get a perfectly natural spandex effect on breasts, or stretches resulting from muscles and arm positions. Some conforming clothes have creases built into them, but they don't adapt naturally to how the figure moves.

I've got all sorts of dynamic tight clothing and usually prefer them to their conforming counterparts. 

Anyway, that's my experience on the matter. I definitely would not discard using tight fitting dynamic clothes. :)

As far as the dynamic bikini on the Daz page goes, the advantage of it would be for natural creases on the bottoms if you animate, and a natural spandex effect on the breasts. 

The advantage of a dynamic bikini is that it falls off at the right time.

;)

LOL@ Winterclaw

I have the feeling people underestimate the knowledge and craft dynamic clothing designers must have.
One doesn't need to rig with bones, but instead of that with grouping setups, like different dynamic groups inside one dress to get the collar stiff and the skirtpart flowing. On top of that the contraint setup so a pant doesn't fall off during a simulation. Depending on the complexity of a clothing item, softdeco or rigid or choreographed groups.

All these groupings doesn't come with a rigsetup you can import or a handy tool to autogroup.
It must al be done by hand.
And off course you have the uvmapping and texturing.

I agree with Grappo2000

The advantage of having a dynamic bikini instead of a conforming one is that one can have different fabrics and behaviours (gravity & folding) in one item.
It just often looks more realistic, but realistic takes more time to setup.....

I dont't hear conformingclothing USERS called lazy, why would one call dynamicclothing Creators lazy then? :P

Quote - I dont't hear conformingclothing USERS called lazy, why would one call dynamicclothing Creators lazy then? :P

Lazy because there's no rigging involved I guess. Something I find patently false and ridiculous. Total BS.

Laurie

Quote - I agree with Grappo2000

The advantage of having a dynamic bikini instead of a conforming one is that one can have different fabrics and behaviours (gravity) in one item.
It just often looks more realistic, but realistic takes more time to setup.....

I dont't hear conformingclothing USERS called lazy, why would one call dynamicclothing Creators lazy then? :P

 

Dynamic clothing is just not used as much as conforming clothing. For beginners, conforming clothing is much easier to do. If you have a non morphed character, you just load the clothing, conform it and you are set to go. Then when you morph your character, new challenges arise.. Then using custom morphs (beyond say the common ++/elite morphs for V4/M4) comes with a new host of problems, needing custom morphs, magnets or conversions to fig the clothing. Then it takes just like dynamic clothing some skill, time and patience. Any original character artwork needs work and a nice touch regardless of the methods used. 

One could easily be lazy making conforming clothing too, especially if you have many of the tools that automate the process. It may not get the best results, but sure you can be lazy. :)

Quote - Lazy because there's no rigging involved I guess. Something I find patently false and ridiculous. Total BS.

Laurie

Don't forget the countless hours of simulations and testings to get drapes, folds and details work to satisfaction. There are quite a few threads around here to testify on that. 

Well, I stand corrected. Now that you guys explained the pros in this, and the complexity of making it work - I had only dealt with simple calculations of dynamics in Poser so far -, I can see I was wrong. Thank you for the info ;)

Some of us here are just hardcore, rabid dynamic cloth maniacs. :)

I can understand why - I truly can. But right at the first few simulations I made, I got crumples and artifacts, so I searched and read it was a BUG. An unadressed bug. So yeah, I pretty gave up on dynamics LOL

Allow me to put a log on the fire.

Why make skintight clothes at all?
Paint clothes on the texture,
Put a displacement map on it
Done....

Next please?
:-)

And there is yet another possibility.. (second log, same fire)

Make the bra obj.
Import in Poser.
Parent to the chest with inhibit bends on.
Save as a smart prop
Done. . .

Smart parented props follow all movements of touching groups too.
Parented to Chest
bra obj will follow the collars and the abdomens movements too.

Same for hip
obj will follow buttocks or the thights, (depending on the figure) and the addomen ..

Next please
:-)

Shorts, mini skirts, and short T-shirts can be made this way too.

Leg warmers can be done this way too.
parent to shin, and they will follow the shin, the thight, and the foot.
No need for rigging.

Anything that is about skintight, and only has to follow 3 groups, can be smart props of the middle group.

Back on track, back to the question.

The best advantage is that you can make the clothing you want quite " how to put this gently"; No need to be "exact".

Use the cloth sim, and let Poser "push" the figure in the clothing.
But do not overdo it.
Build the clothing as close as you dare.
Set the figure at X95% and Z95% and let it grow to 100% in the sim.
The figure will push the cloth in place.

takes a bit of experience, but some out here are pretty good at it. :-)

So now we have:
Dynamic clothing
Conforming clothing
Smart prop clothing
Texture and displacementmap clothing

Oh, what a nice hobby, so many tools to choose from.

Lazy?
Oh, no, every one of these take quite some time to get right.

Let's see you do those straps with a texture and displacement. ;)

Coldrake

That was the purpose of my second post.

One has a choice of tools,
not every clothing can be made with every tool.
But, yours could be made with a smart parented prop, or dynamic, or conforming.

Also, not every one of them has or makes a shadow.

Use the right tool for the job....

PS, the straps are not skintight. Are they? :-)

texture and displacement clothing ONLY works IF skintight..

ha-ha-ha-
Next please :-)

Quote - > Quote - Lazy because there's no rigging involved I guess. Something I find patently false and ridiculous. Total BS.

Laurie

Don't forget the countless hours of simulations and testings to get drapes, folds and details work to satisfaction. There are quite a few threads around here to testify on that. 

YOU KNOW IT!! LOL

Quote - Allow me to put a log on the fire.

Why make skintight clothes at all?
Paint clothes on the texture,
Put a displacement map on it
Done....

Ever seen a painted-on bikini in real life? Does it look like a bikini?

Now you'll say real-life paint can't do whatever Shaders can, but still... Displacement maps aren't top-quality in Poser. Plus they can't make mesh move sideways, therefore there's no illusion of where the fabric ends and skin begins. Ambient occlusion with displacement isn't all that great either.

Besides, you just wanna go actual skin-tight with everything? So if I wanna make the strapped bikini shown, I'd have to make a bikini texture and displacement PLUS make a figure and rig it for the straps? BRILLIANT (not).

Quote - Bikinis tightly fit on the body, so I can't see much value in using dynamic cloth there.

It benefits those that need some alone-time in front of their computer.

The other advantage is that the dynamic version can be used on any figure, as some of the pics of M4 in that same bikini (bottom) can show.  You don't need morphs or rigging to get it to fit.

Rosemaryr said

Quote - The other advantage is that the dynamic version can be used on any figure, as some of the pics of M4 in that same bikini (bottom) can show.  You don't need morphs or rigging to get it to fit.

Very true! Also very true with the many custom morphs available. Dynamic cloth can fit even the most obscure morphs that very few vendors support with conforming clothing. The link below is to an image I did several years ago using skin tight cloth for the top, and free flowing cloth for the skirt. It didn't matter what morphs were used, the outfit still fit very well.

One of the things that really bugs me about many conforming skin tight bikini type tops is the way the straps between the shoulders and the breasts stay next to the skin, and aren't straight like they should be. When was the last time you saw someone in a bikini with large breasts, and the straps were plastered against her skin .... never?? If designed properly, the bikini straps will move to a realistic position regardless of the morphs used. This is actually quite difficult to do with a conformer, and with certain morph combinations it is nearly impossible. Of course you can manually fix this issue with magnets, but why when the computer can calculate the dynamics to do this for you.

Dynamic cloth really is great with certain styles of skin tight clothing. IMHO it works much better than conforming - if designed properly.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=887298

(Editied for errors because I can't type.)

@afrodite

Do not mix bump with displacement.
Bump only gives an illusion.
Displacement, displaces the mesh.
With a texture-displacement map of 4096x4096 available for each material you can make very detailed clothes.
it is like having 4096x4096 poly's for each material.
But, they have one limitation; those micro poly's only move in-out relative to the surface.

Now, the next log on the fire.

There is one more way to "make clothes".

Anyone got an idea?
I"ll try to post some pics tonight.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Lazy because there's no rigging involved I guess. Something I find patently false and ridiculous. Total BS. Laurie

Don't forget the countless hours of simulations and testings to get drapes, folds and details work to satisfaction. There are quite a few threads around here to testify on that.

YOU KNOW IT!! LOL

Oh! Oh! Oh! I so want to throw my two cents in. As some of you know, I've finally been "converted" to dynamics. Folks, there's no going back, once you get into this! It's like drawing with crayons vs painting with oils: neither is better than the other, but MY don't you have just so much more feel with oils!

So, Mr Grappo, I bought your dynamic undies... playing with them tonight, actually. One thing that didn't get mentioned is how with dynamics you can get that incredible fit for your morphs, no matter what you do... well, no matter what may be "stretching it" a bit, but the fit is just so much more realistic. Undies with wrinkles where you'd expect wrinkles when in a certain pose - leave that to your collective imaginations. Go ahead, give your figure the morph you want: those undies fit perfectly at the end of the sim.

Tbh, I didn't think any differently from the OP about tight-fitting clothing than he did, initially. However, the real talent of dynamic cloth makers is put to the test in this type of clothing. I do want to make my own, someday, but I think I'll play for a while first - a LONG while.

I really think questions like this are best answered by trying that type of dynamic cloth yourself. Until you do dynamics, and do it a fair bit, you really can't see the value in it. Once you start, however, you wonder why you stuck so long with conforming.

Quote - @afrodite

Do not mix bump with displacement.
Bump only gives an illusion.
Displacement, displaces the mesh.
With a texture-displacement map of 4096x4096 available for each material you can make very detailed clothes.
it is like having 4096x4096 poly's for each material.
But, they have one limitation; those micro poly's only move in-out relative to the surface.

Before you suggest I don't know what a displacement is, I suggest you take a look at my store. Particularly my Suprema series, and look at the texture details.

I never said you can't make clothes with that, I said it simply doesn't look quite right. A displaced bikini over skin looks very much GLUED to skin to me, there's no indentation at the hems to see where fabric ends and skin begins, and to cast proper ambient occlusions. Looks alright from a distance, but in a close/zoomed render... it looks just plain fake to me. The only thing I think looks ok with displacement on skin is lace and sheer stockings... because in real life they're very thin materials.

If you ever want an argument "for" a dynamic bikini, try making a conforming one fit a girl who has been morphed with NBS, King Size, or any other custom breast morphs!!!! I went nuts trying to get a bra to fit one such lass, thyen discovered that I had a DYNAMIC bra in my runtime. Fits her perfectly!

Grappo is 105% right on this one! Once you see the realistic results that dymanic clothing gives, there is no going back! Conforming clothing is fine until you see what you have been missing!

Quote - One of the things that really bugs me about many conforming skin tight bikini type tops is the way the straps between the shoulders and the breasts stay next to the skin, and aren't straight like they should be. When was the last time you saw someone in a bikini with large breasts, and the straps were plastered against her skin .... never?? 

I really notice this with any sort of straps, such as garters.

Quote - Grappo is 105% right on this one! Once you see the realistic results that dymanic clothing gives, there is no going back! Conforming clothing is fine until you see what you have been missing!

Well, after 7 years, I figured maybe I should try this. You guys have been saying this for so long...

So I brought up a simple tutorial showing how to convert conforming clothing into dynamic, and tried it with a shirt.

OMG! Why have I not being doing this all this time???

I should have listened years ago!!!

The first thought which came to me was that the modeler wanted to eliminate poke-through, which is common on tight-fitting conforming clothes, but dynamic eliminates it, even if you are using extreme poses, character morphs, or "breathing" morphs in an animation.  Second thought was that tie strings/bows can be assigned to the dynamic or soft decoration group.

I absolutely love dyanamic clothing!  And I can see some merit behind using it for a bikini or male and female under garments.

If you look at even the tightest of panties from behind, they do tend to crinkle a bit when the person is walking. So if you are looking for extreme realism in your images so far as clothing goes, then dynamic clothing will go along way to help you with that goal.