The following thread was originally locked and deleted. A number of members asked that it be restored because it does contain a great deal of good discussion on a valid issue.

What follows is the thread, heavily editied by me, to remove all of the unrealted, devisive, and often just plain mean comments. I hope the good information here is of some use.

-basicwiz

** Moderator**

Original Post:

This question may be self explanatory...

What would Non-DAZ figure need to become poserdom mainstream?

Come with Poser?
Be heavily promotoed by SM?

What else comes to mind?

(other then genitals... :P)

there seems to be a general interest in normal non-perfect people with normal non-perfect proportions, having normal non-perfect skin and wearing normal non-perfect clothes.

IMO we can do without the 200% hydrated supermodels in their clothless coverage.

Depends on which stream you consider mainstream, though.

Why must I use a "mainstream" figure?

She need a good vendor support, his origins are not important but where she go is important.

If a lot people buy them, but after 3 months you have only two miniskirt and  one bikini on the marketplace, with some freestuff here and there, this is probably a failure, she end collecting dust in some dark corner of a runtime.

From what i see in the forums, creating a figure is most likely a one person task, but creating a viable figure is a team work.

Once the figure is ready, in place to release a poor naked girl (or boy) they must contact some vendor under NDA to create a set of clothes, morphs and assorted items, some vendors will probably not work on a unknown brand new figure, but some will take the risk.

Look at DAZ when they get out a new figure, she come with a full closet, various hairs and poses sets, morphs and several bundles fitting all budgets, a lot of people have worked in secrecy to make all these things who are released together.

IMO SM must work with Renderosity and/or RDNA to release a figure with some chance.

Quote - Why must I use a "mainstream" figure? 

You don't have to.

I'm just trying to figure out whether there is something that I can support as a content maker, or abandon the idea of making content, and see what else I can do to make a living.

I tried supporting non-mainstream figures with content more then once, and I can't make ends meet with that formula.

PC friendly
MAC Friendly

Material room friendly.

User friendly
Content creators friendly.

A good human shape.
An exellent rigging.

NO HIDDEN THINGS: NO hidden magnets, NO hidden bones.

He/she who needs them can take a step back and start how to rig all over again.

I hope I am pretty-pretty clear here.
I just looked at my own body, and I do NOT have hidden magnets or hidden bones.

Pöly count:
As few Poly's as possible => Every Poly has to DO something in 3D space or it is pollution.
A good figure can be made from 10.000 Poly's
A VERY good figure can be made with 20.000 Poly's.

**Anything over 20.000 poly's? => Back to school, learn how to model.

If you need subdevision to make you model accepatble? => Learn how to model.**

As few material zones as possible to be material room friendly.

Whe the hell on earth has 2 different iris colors???
Who the hell on earth has 2 different pupil colors???
Who the hell on earth has 2 different eyeballs???
Who the hell on earth has 2 different cornea's???

Is this just and purely to make us all pull our material room hair out???????

STOP using different maps for head-body-legs and arms...
Who invented that one????

Use one big texture instead of all those 4095x4096 textures.
Poser is NOT limited to 4096x4096 textures.
Anyone listening???

Use ONE BIG texture and put it all on there. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Less material zones, and all on ONE texture.
That, ladies and gentlemen is material room friendly.

If???
If I need an extra material zone?
Poser allows me to create it.
Poser does NOT allow me to delete one. I have to go outside Poser to do that.

Rigging:
Perhaps the single most critical part .

With the current weightmap tools you do NOT need anything HIDDEN.

He who needs hidden magnets and bones? => Back to BASIC rigging school.

Happy Posering to you all.

When PP2012 came ut?

I rendered hundreds of boxes and balls. Hundreds to get to grips with all the new light and shader options.

I spend months on rigging and morphing the Poser ONE figures. (close to 3 months)
Yes, the Poser 1 (ONE) figures to learn all about rigging and the weightmap system.

With morphs and adapted rigging even those are acceptable figures.

Then, as an extra exercise I did the same for the Poser 2 (TWO) figures.
No hidden magnets or bones needed.

Then, when I felt confident, I spend the next month on the PoserPro LO Res figures.

Anything above that is filled with poly pollution or bad poly distribution and not worth the trouble to work with or on.

Now I have 3 very usable Poser families.

Morphed, re-rigged, and with user friendly material zones.

I recently deleted all other figures from my runtimes.

For any new figure??
Actually there is only one way to go: User friendly and content creator friendly.

@badkittehCo

I understand you.
The answer is a simple one.

Exept for the figure families I just mestioned, all other figures have non-repairable flaws.

That is why I deleted them all. (even the ones I bought)

for them to be come mainstream then most people must like them.  They should look good in default position.  They should have lots of morphs.

They should be advertised.

Love esther

I assume that by ‘non-DAZ,’ your definition ‘mainstream’ means comparable to Vickie (the gold standard) in terms of popularity. There are probably several factors. To begin with, you have the established DAZ brand. Brand may be somewhat intangible but it is a huge deal. In another thread, I suggested that SM needed to create their own separate figure brand and build up some value in that brand – hint, it won’t happen overnight. I’m not sure that it is mandatory. A single figure from an independent vendor might achieve success, but the whole brand acceptance thing is a powerful factor IMO.

The very term mainstream implies popularity across a broad range of customers. To trot out the tired Windows vs. Linux vs. Mac analogy, appealing to a more narrow, perhaps more technically sophisticated audience won’t necessarily work. That is not to say that better bending, sophisticated shaders etc. aren’t selling points, only that by themselves, they don’t amount to mainstream success. IMO, there is a surprising myopia on the part of some – better doesn’t always, or perhaps even mostly equal popularity.

I have to disagree with aRtBee on the attractiveness factor. Yes there is always a call for ‘real’ people and ‘everyday’ clothes and if only the vendors would heed them, they’d take off like wildfire. Pretty and sexy sell in the mainstream. There are exceptions to be sure, but by and large, cute overwhelms common. Add all the plain morphs you want but the base better be pretty.

It had better be a she. Male figures have their own standard of popularity, but the truly popular figures are female and that is a simple, and IMO immutable fact.

I’m not sure how cost factors in. DAZ was successful at selling figures in the $40-$50 range, but again they had the brand, money-back guarantee etc. I don’t know if a new figure could come in at that price and succeed in today’s economy. Having a free or low cost base would certainly help.

Support is a no brainer. You need a good selection of accessories, morphs, clothing etc. from day one. You also need the perception that support will continue. Again. That was pretty much a given with DAZ. Without that kind of backing, there’s no guarantee that a figure will be around tomorrow. At the very least, a public commitment from some prominent vendors to support the figure would help. You need to somehow get free items available as well. Free items gives a perception of popularity and it enables people to get some use from the figure without necessarily having to buy products.

Promotion! Enthusiast’s enthusiasm in the Poser forum can’t equal advertising. Having the figure ship with Poser would be a good start but I don’t think there’s been a default Poser figure that was ‘mainstream’ since Posette. People may also tend to discount the included figures (for various reasons), but there’s probably a certain appeal to add-ons. There’s usually an aftermarket for just about anything.

There have been figures that hit a lot of these points but still were not that successful. There’s always an X factor that is pretty indefinable. I had to have The Girl when I first saw her. I never ended up using her very much at all, but she had that something ÷)

Agreed Ester.

They should look good, friendly, nice, smile in the default position.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression.
NEVER.

Lots of morphs, agreed again.
And??
The builder/creator has to advertice / support them.

When ever the builder/creator comes back saying he/she is working on something else allready?
All support comes to a grinding STOP.
His/her newly just released figure is finised, over and done with.

Friendly, and User friendly, user friendly, user friendly.

PS, I am adding a new family. ha-ha-ha-

The Poser4 Lo Res figures.
Morphing and rigging them.

they where my favorites for years, and now I am adapting them to PP2012.

Happy Posering

also of course they should work in poser.  Fancy figures for studio max or the on size fits all DS eg genesis, or some other software are not going to be mainstream for poser because they don't work in poser.  I would have thought that would go without saying JoePublic.  People don't just use poser because of the figures, but we do want nice figures.

So for a figure to become mainstream like the vickies used to be it doesn't need to be a supergenesis. (we can't even use genesis, why would we need a supergenesis)  A figure to be mainstream needs to look good and be an improvement on V4 and M4.

Love esther

Quote - Come with Poser?
Be heavily promoted by SM?

Figures that come with Poser haven't been mainstream since Posette, in my perception. The future is another matter, and there's been plenty of speculation on that.

Quote - I'm just trying to figure out whether there is something that I can support as a content maker, or abandon the idea of making content, and see what else I can do to make a living.

You're one of the best and most respected content makers out there, and if you can't make money then it's probably time to get a proper job - no offence...

Perhaps a thought.

SM should repair all figures in their current content.

Posers content has been around since its very first release and has a long life span.
Poser1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 figures are all still included.

But??? Never repaired....
After all these years, Posette still has non welded parts to give just one example.

Please repair the current content to build confidence.

Or?? Remove the lot, and start with a blank sheet. 

Popular Poser figures????

2, only 2.

Posette in her days, and now V4.

I rest my case.

For me it is pretty simple: A new figure must have a steady supply of content.

Of course, this it the chicken and egg problem, but that is what is needed. It took almost a year from me to switch from V3 to V4 because initially there was not enough variety of content. I had high hopes for Miki and the G2 figures, but after the initial rush in content, it just faded away, mainly due to not being picked up by other vendors.

DAZ's retreat from Poser may change this if new figures are released for Poser by SM. I think it can because they can generate the hype which is needed to be picked up by the Poser community

People dislike 'vaporware' with good reason and Apple has done just fine with secrecy but... IMO, this is a time for SM to make an announcement of the direction they plan to go interms of figures. Forget the backroom, NDA  etc. BS. Come out and say this is what we are going to do, these are the resources we are committing (talent and money) and this our timeline. Keep people informed, show progress, get input, have an open beta program yada, yada. In one fell swoop, they calm the anxiety, end the speculation and give people real confidence that they know what they're doing and have a plan. Weigh mapping the old figures is fine but I'm not sure that bending was the major reason they weren't that popular to begin with - ugly is the term I hear most often. She doesn't necessarily  need to be a Super Genesis. I'm not sure the market for discrete figures is dead by any means. She does need to at LEAST be what people would have expected a non-Genesis V5 to be.

Wim??
Hammer on the nail.

A hype.

But to create a hype, and to maintiain the momentum going, you need a flawless figure to start with.
And tons of content from day one.. to start with.

From day one.... Meaning, you have to be ready, no, nore then ready, at release date.
A blouse, a shirt and pants are not going to do it.

And??? All clothing HAS to behave the same.

Same for poses.

IK ON, or IK OFF????

Pick your choice and STICK to it.
Now it is at random??
For some poses IK has to be OFF, for others it has to be ON..

Hey, make up your mind....

User friendly, user friendly, user firendly.

If you release a clothing line, the whole clothing line HAS to behave the same way.

Not one item, conforming, the other item superconforming, the next item??? => All is there figure it out !!!!!! => Hey, make up your mind , OK?

User friendly, user friendly, user friendly.......

And as I said before??

Hidden magnets belong in a game.
Hidden bones belong somewhere in Egypt.

Both are a NIGHTMARE!

User friendly, user friendly, user friendly.

I like discrete figures and clothes specifically made for a figure always look better. I think a nice range of figures from child to adult figures would be great, especially if their faces were similar so they could belong to a family or age or in backflashes in comics etc.

Love esther

I disagree.  I think that a discrete figure with its own set of clothes that are designed for it are much better than an automatic pluggin that kind of shrinkwraps the clothes even if it automatically loosens the breasts etc.

That's what I prefer.

Love esther

I still wish Terai Yuki 2 would get more love, and not have to wait approximately 4-6 months for just a single new item for her..

Of course, this does make it easier for me to be able to get practically everything for her.

I think one point not mentioned would be for it to be marketed in the Daz store, as well as work well in DS (unfortunately, the divergence on weight-maps makes this problematic)

Like it or not, Daz is where most "beginners" go, for the free software.  It's where I started.  Beginners (and there is always a steady stream of them) also spend a nice little clump of change when starting.  This money means vendor support.

Figure-wise, other than maybe Cookie, are there any non-Daz marketed figures that have done really well for vendors (not counting Posette)?

Does Daz allow non-Daz human figures?

I believe the single piece to a successful Poser figure is team work.  A TEAM of vendors with the single purpose to support and market the figure.

A TEAM of vendors in place before the figure is released.

A TEAM of vendors who commit to creating morphs and content.

The "independent contractor" strategy doesn't work for a figure release - it has to be a team.

Quote - Forget the backroom, NDA  etc. BS. Come out and say this is what we are going to do, these are the resources we are committing (talent and money) and this our timeline. Keep people informed, show progress, get input, have an open beta program yada, yada. In one fell swoop, they calm the anxiety, end the speculation and give people real confidence that they know what they're doing and have a plan.

This, to me, is the most intelligent quote in the thread so far.

Those of us working on the M4WM project know that it's on hold waiting for the guru's to finish contractual agreements with SM. This is no secret. SM has leaked a little hint that they ARE working on figures. 2+2=4. Except, WE shouldn't HAVE to be doing the addition!

I would hope that that SM people who haunt these threads might consider what the company can do to help us out with info, and, in the end, help themselves out with increased interest. (Last time I checked, that translated to increased sales.)

Quote -
...Then, when I felt confident, I spend the next month on the PoserPro LO Res figures.

Anything above that is filled with poly pollution or bad poly distribution and not worth the trouble to work with or on.

Now that's interesting, because those meshes are redistributable.  I've never played with the lo-res ones; are they really that good?

Well to give a very biased answer to the original OP's question,

The figure needs to be easy to animate
and function with posers optional ragdoll physics.
I personally dont care about perfect bending joint or weight mapping etc

I need to be able to retarget existing motion from my vast archive to the figure with minimal manual correcting

This is where "Antonia"  Standard Failed me in the most spectacular fashion !!!

After about 22 minutes of usage I deleted that figure because of  its utter lack of compatibility with posers animation options.

Cheers

Quote - Whe the hell on earth has 2 different iris colors???

Just people you might have heard of? Christopher Walken, Jane Seymour, Mila Kunis, Kiefer Sutherland, Kate Bosworth, and Alexander the Great. It's called heterochromia iridum.

Quote - Who the hell on earth has 2 different pupil colors???
Who the hell on earth has 2 different eyeballs???
Who the hell on earth has 2 different cornea's???

Just off the top of my head? Someone who's suffered damage to one eye, someone who has a prosthetic (simply a non-functional replacement or a science-fiction/magical one) that doesn't quite match the other one, someone with cataracts in one eye...need I go on?

Not to be redundant, but I would think it would need good vendor support, a lot of options and a nice, realistic look. Maybe a whole family...both adults and kids. Perhaps even a baby. After all, our only choice for baby are the cubed babies (which I don't have) or the Millennium Baby 3 (which I do have) but which is scary beyond words...lol.

Laurie

Quote - Whe the hell on earth has 2 different iris colors???

Quote - Just people you might have heard of? Christopher Walken, Jane Seymour, Mila Kunis, Kiefer Sutherland, Kate Bosworth, and Alexander the Great. It's called heterochromia iridum.

And David Bowie :) I also had a childhood friend that had one brown eye and one hazel eye. Happens more than ya think. In animals as well, cats being the obvious.

Professor Xavier said it best: "It's a very goovy mutation" ;)

Laurie

Psst ! For the love of God, don't look at them. Seriously, they are horrible. Really. The kind of horrible that gives you nightmares.

Remember: What has been seen, cannot be un-seen !

Yeah, those figures are pretty plain and ugly and need MAJOR work ;) I guess if you're an expert morpher you may be able to make them look..sorta good..lol.

Laurie

Quote - Remember: What has been seen, cannot be un-seen !

LOL :lol:

Quote - > Quote - Whe the hell on earth has 2 different iris colors???

Just people you might have heard of? Christopher Walken, Jane Seymour, Mila Kunis, Kiefer Sutherland, Kate Bosworth, and Alexander the Great. It's called heterochromia iridum.

Quote - Who the hell on earth has 2 different pupil colors???
Who the hell on earth has 2 different eyeballs???
Who the hell on earth has 2 different cornea's???

Just off the top of my head? Someone who's suffered damage to one eye, someone who has a prosthetic (simply a non-functional replacement or a science-fiction/magical one) that doesn't quite match the other one, someone with cataracts in one eye...need I go on?

I'd defintely say, if looking for realism, close up, then asymmetrical options are probably pretty important...???

Quote - Psst ! For the love of God, don't look at them. Seriously, they are horrible. Really. The kind of horrible that gives you nightmares. Remember: What has been seen, cannot be un-seen !

That's why I asked, because I have played with the hi-res ones, and they make Alyson and Ryan look like gods...

Why oh why does the Genesis figure always appear when anyone mentions a new figure for Poser?

The OP did state:-

What would Non-DAZ figure need to become poserdom mainstream?

Now I know it's sometimes hard to understand complicated questions, but it is easy enough to see that it was a NON-DAZ figure!!!

Some may want Genesis in Poser, if so, there are threads for that already.

Others want a NON-DAZ option, this is a discussion thread for those.

All the best.

LROG

Yes Mr. Moderator. I'll refrain from using the D-word or the G-word. The "words that must remain unspoken"

I don't know about mainstream, but If something appears that I like, I buy it. I don't follow anything just because others do.

We all have various characters we enojy using.

I just want to see something that makes me go "WOW!!! I WANT THAT!!!!"

All the best.

LROG

Well after reading this thread I must be more intelligent than I thought, because I use Poser and DS and I have no trouble adapting to DS, even though others consider it a huge challenge.. ( I agree though that a manual for DS would be a great help. )

I can't tell the OP what would make a new figure mainstream, but I would say if the consensus of opinion is that it should have all, or most, of the characteristics of genesis, then why re-invent the wheel? Why not put the effort into getting genesis in Poser, either by persuading SM to reconsider, or by creating the tools yourselves to make it work.  That approach worked with the Luxrender adaptor..

Apart from a minority who would apparently prefer to cut off their own gentials rather than than use genesis, consider that making that adaptor would give you access to ready make content, and maybe more importantly a resonable guarantee that the figure is not going to fade into obscurity any time soon.

Edited to add:  In light of some of the comments above

If a moderator or admin asks me not to discuss genesis then I will take notice, otherwise not.

 have a nice day

Quote - > Quote - What truly complicates things is that each software package labels the same function differently.  For instance, in Poser it's Sphere Zones, in DS, it's Matrices!  Same function, same purpose, renamed. 

Completely unsearchable, even if you KNEW what to search for because "matrices" brings up 8,980,000 results, and "matrices 3d" brings up 7,860,000 results.

"Matrices Daz Studio" produces 102,000 results and only one of them even relates to rigging in DS, and that link is now dead because of the forum switch.

Good gawd...lol. I never even got far enough with it to look for any of that ;).

Laurie

ROFL, the only reason I know it is because I bought Littlefox's rigging tutorials!

Aah, and here also comes deputy-substitute-assistant part-time ersatz-moderator, paganeagle2001.

You ever heard of a "benchmark", paganeagle ?

A benchmark is something that things are measured up against to determine their quality.

In this case, Genesis is the benchmark for ready-made human 3D figures, so, umm, yes, it is quite possible, if not to say probable, that any discussion involving Poser figures will also include Genesis.

Actually, we could just as well call it "JoePublic's law".

Have a nice day, officer, and thank you for keeping the threads safe.

:-)

Quote - Well after reading this thread I must be more intelligent than I thought, because I use Poser and DS and I have no trouble adapting to DS, even though others consider it a huge challenge.. ( I agree though that a manual for DS would be a great help. )

I can't tell the OP what would make a new figure mainstream, but I would say if the consensus of opinion is that it should have all, or most, of the characteristics of genesis, then why re-invent the wheel? Why not put the effort into getting genesis in Poser, either by persuading SM to reconsider, or by creating the tools yourselves to make it work.  That approach worked with the Luxrender adaptor..

Apart from a minority who would apparently prefer to cut off their own gentials rather than than use genesis, consider that making that adaptor would give you access to ready make content, and maybe more importantly a resonable guarantee that the figure is not going to fade into obscurity any time soon.

 

 

ROFL, I didn't see anyone but DS users say a Poser figure should be like Genesis.

Quote - Well after reading this thread I must be more intelligent than I thought, because I use Poser and DS and I have no trouble adapting to DS, even though others consider it a huge challenge.. ( I agree though that a manual for DS would be a great help. )

I can't tell the OP what would make a new figure mainstream, but I would say if the consensus of opinion is that it should have all, or most, of the characteristics of genesis, then why re-invent the wheel? Why not put the effort into getting genesis in Poser, either by persuading SM to reconsider, or by creating the tools yourselves to make it work.  That approach worked with the Luxrender adaptor..

Apart from a minority who would apparently prefer to cut off their own gentials rather than than use genesis, consider that making that adaptor would give you access to ready make content, and maybe more importantly a resonable guarantee that the figure is not going to fade into obscurity any time soon.

 

 

The thread is for NON-DAZ figures. Why bring up genesis again and again. it DOES NOT WORK in Poser. And working in Poser is all what this thread is about

"Why not put the effort into getting genesis in Poser, either by persuading SM to reconsider,..."

"Apart from a minority who would apparently prefer to cut off their own gentials rather than than use genesis, consider that making that adaptor would give you access to ready make content, and maybe more importantly a resonable guarantee that the figure is not going to fade into obscurity any time soon."

You, Sir, are a Gentlemen and a scholar . Thank you !

:-)

Quote - In this case, Genesis is the benchmark for ready-made human 3D figures, so, umm, yes, it is quite possible, if not to say probable, that any discussion involving Poser figures will also include Genesis.

So says DAZ.  No one else uses that standard.  No.  One.

Quote - "Why not put the effort into getting genesis in Poser, either by persuading SM to reconsider,..."

"Apart from a minority who would apparently prefer to cut off their own gentials rather than than use genesis, consider that making that adaptor would give you access to ready make content, and maybe more importantly a resonable guarantee that the figure is not going to fade into obscurity any time soon."

 

You, Sir, are a Gentlemen and a scholar . Thank you !

:-)

So says the team determined to make a POSER thread about Daz.

I'm sorry, Glitterati3D.

I think I now understand your pain.

Trying to follow a simple path without a proper manual must have been a truly horrible experience.

Shame on you, DAZ !

Shame on you for preying on the weak and feeble-minded, corrupting their innocence and being generally wicked and evil !

Quote - I'm sorry, Glitterati3D.

I think I now understand your pain.

Trying to follow a simple path without a proper manual must have been a truly horrible experience.

Shame on you, DAZ !

Shame on you for preying on the weak and feeble-minded, corrupting their innocence and being generally wicked and evil !

 

 

 

Wow, was that really necessary?

Seriously, if you would just take your DAZ RELIGION into the proper forum, you would save yourself a lot of pain.

Can we PLEASE return to the OP's question?

Quote - Edited to add:  In light of some of the comments above If a moderator or admin asks me not to discuss genesis then I will take notice, otherwise not.

 have a nice day

Then, perhaps, I should call your attention to the following link:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2848343

Quote - The thread is for NON-DAZ figures. Why bring up genesis again and again. it DOES NOT WORK in Poser. And working in Poser is all what this thread is about

Genesis does work in Poser with some work, but the clothing doesn't work well.

There really needs to be a mesh built from scratch for weightmapping; of course, that then shuts out the legacy market.  Some of the G-like features should be incorporated, but will animated joint centers work with conforming clothes?

Yes, the LO Res figures are THAT good.

And you know why??

We never render a mesh. 
We render a texture.

The mesh is only the coathanger to hang the texture on.

All you need is a decend morphed mesh that is very well rigged.

ALL the rest is texture......texture. .  .texture.... and material room, and light.