I stop into these forums now once every few months or so. Just noticed this thread and I want to add that I too agree with EVERYTHING that has been said here. This site is going the way of many businesses, whoever it is making the bad decisions is just going to ride their bad idea directly into the ground.

I used to be very active here. Hell I would check in 2-3 times a day at least. Galleries, community, innovation, great prices and more - this site had it all.

Slowly it dwindled with excessive moderation. In fact I'm surprised this thread is still open. I'm sure many like me didn't appreciate not being able to express a valid complaint without it being shut down, locked and deleted. Me personally I figured I'd stop sharing all together.

The store now, I can't find a damn thing. I get in a poor mood immediately if I have to come here to purchase something because I know I will have to wade through pages of irrelevant results to find what I'm looking for. Also that Prime nonsense which I too will NEVER buy. Yet it is constantly being stuffed in my throat. Then you have product redundancy. Scripts to change material nodes and sell the same product over and over again. Ugh.

You'd think after all this time Renderosity would have it's own figure. How many great modelers came through the forums creating independent figures, figures with TONS of potential. Other companies were eager to get on this and many of the old names have been now hired by software companies or are even working with Smith Micro. With all the free money Rendo has gotten off vendor work (yeah I still think 50% is highway robbery even if it is the standard) you'd think they would have been able to invest something in continued viability and got behind a real versatile figure. So we aren't all stuck going to Daz because Poser figures just aren't keeping up.

Over all I'm very disappointed with the course things have taken. I've been giving this feedback for 9 years though. Nobody has listened yet and I don't imagine anyone will any time soon. There is still time and opportunity to change but I'm not holding my breath.

There is at least one original figure here, but none made first-party by Rendo. I am referring to Sixus's Scarlet. Though not a standalone figure, OOT also has Dolly and Olly for G2F, and there's also an Animedoll for G2F.

Unfortunately, Vendors who don't like Rendo's recent direction have few alternatives. Daz has very strict rules on products (must have metadata, and they can be pretty tough on what products they accept and reject). Hivewire I think might be strict as well. RDNA forces vendors to release products there as exclusive-only with rare exceptions, and Content Paradise is damn near dead (no forums, no tech support email, no means of becoming a new vendor, and just a tech support phone number that may not even work. They also have no quality control beyond worksafe-wise for promo renders, so you have bad promos that make the site look cheap-- and any time a product is updated, its release date gets reset, so it looks like a new product, even though it is 10-12 years old-- which contributes to the cheap look even further. Renderosity offers vendors by far the most flexibility, but it seems to be coming at a greater and greater as more time goes by.

IceEmpress posted at 11:45AM Tue, 02 February 2016 - #4252633

There is at least one original figure here, but none made first-party by Rendo. I am referring to Sixus's Scarlet. Though not a standalone figure, OOT also has Dolly and Olly for G2F, and there's also an Animedoll for G2F.

Unfortunately, Vendors who don't like Rendo's recent direction have few alternatives. Daz has very strict rules on products (must have metadata, and they can be pretty tough on what products they accept and reject). Hivewire I think might be strict as well. RDNA forces vendors to release products there as exclusive-only with rare exceptions, and Content Paradise is damn near dead (no forums, no tech support email, no means of becoming a new vendor, and just a tech support phone number that may not even work. They also have no quality control beyond worksafe-wise for promo renders, so you have bad promos that make the site look cheap-- and any time a product is updated, its release date gets reset, so it looks like a new product, even though it is 10-12 years old-- which contributes to the cheap look even further. Renderosity offers vendors by far the most flexibility, but it seems to be coming at a greater and greater as more time goes by.

I purchased Scarlet and still use her, although no where near as much as Dawn. The slating that the Scarlet, and the vendor, got here at Rendo pretty well killed Scarlet at birth.

You have a better, in depth knowledge of the different markets for a vendor point of view but they sort of line up with what I imagined. The only thing I cannot fathom is, if Daz is as you state it is, and I have no reason to doubt you, why are Rendo so intent on becoming the poor man's Daz.

I didn't realize that Renderosity is making strict rules on the products, now. Though they are well on their way to killing the forum community here. Oh, I forgot a very important and very negative difference about DAZ-- they don't allow off-site products in promo images, nor add-ons for off-site products to be sold in their store. I can't remember if Hivewire3D is the same way or not (bear in mind that Hivewire3D is a split-off from DAZ3D, so products from one store can be found in the other) Neither RDNA nor Rendo have such a rule. So the lineup of cons goes like this:

DAZ: Strict guidelines for products (must have metadata, many products rejected, etc.), super-strict forum TOS, no add-ons for off-site products, no off-site products in promo renders, Daz takes 50% of net vendor revenue-- more for non-exclusive products.

RDNA: Requires vendors to make products exclusive-only with few exceptions (generally software, scripts, and plug-ins) I can't remember how much net vendor revenue they take, but it seems like it was lower than 50%.

HIVEWIRE3D: Not sure, but might share Daz's off-site promo render and product add-ons ban (excepting DAZ products) Very limited selection of non-Dawn/Dusk/Luna products

CONTENT PARADISE: Dying. No forums, no email/on-site tech support (only phone#, which I'm not sure even works), no way for someone to become a new vendor. Product release date changes whenever said product is updated, creating the illusion that CP mostly sells low-quality products.

The main disadvantage to Renderosity is that, like DAZ, they take 50% of net vendor revenue.

IceEmpress posted at 3:29AM Thu, 04 February 2016 - #4252993

I didn't realize that Renderosity is making strict rules on the products, now. Though they are well on their way to killing the forum community here. Oh, I forgot a very important and very negative difference about DAZ-- they don't allow off-site products in promo images, nor add-ons for off-site products to be sold in their store. I can't remember if Hivewire3D is the same way or not (bear in mind that Hivewire3D is a split-off from DAZ3D, so products from one store can be found in the other) Neither RDNA nor Rendo have such a rule. So the lineup of cons goes like this:

DAZ: Strict guidelines for products (must have metadata, many products rejected, etc.), super-strict forum TOS, no add-ons for off-site products, no off-site products in promo renders, Daz takes 50% of net vendor revenue-- more for non-exclusive products.

RDNA: Requires vendors to make products exclusive-only with few exceptions (generally software, scripts, and plug-ins) I can't remember how much net vendor revenue they take, but it seems like it was lower than 50%.

HIVEWIRE3D: Not sure, but might share Daz's off-site promo render and product add-ons ban (excepting DAZ products) Very limited selection of non-Dawn/Dusk/Luna products

CONTENT PARADISE: Dying. No forums, no email/on-site tech support (only phone#, which I'm not sure even works), no way for someone to become a new vendor. Product release date changes whenever said product is updated, creating the illusion that CP mostly sells low-quality products.

The main disadvantage to Renderosity is that, like DAZ, they take 50% of net vendor revenue.

I do agree so much with your comments regarding the forums here although I am not sure that the description of Hivewire3D being a 'split off from DAZ3D' adequately describes the situation considering the history though I guess it has some validity at a certain level.

I am not a vendor of any sort at any brokerage so I cannot vouch for the terms and conditions but I suspect that the lack of non Dawn/Dusk/Luna products is a product of the fact it is a very small team and the reasons behind why that team was born. There are some genesis products so there are some Daz related stuff and there is certainly more than any Dawn/Dusk/Luna stuff than you will see at Daz3D and Hivewire3D is the home of the stunning creations of Ken Gilliland and also Lisa's Botanicals. It should also be noted that both Daz and Poser versions of the figures are supported, another difference in trend from Daz3D at this present time. They also run a point system where you earn points on everything you buy that can be used against the cost of future purchases, again no up front fee is required.

As I said, they are a small team, and as the creators of Dawn and Dusk it is not surprising that the site is focused on such figures, and attracts their supporters, but that is only part of the story as the team strive to add to the the Hivewire3D family. There is already the superb Hivewire3d horse and if you want to see the effort put in to making some high quality, user friendly products look not further than the classic or Western Tack for this horse. Work is also in progress on a gorilla and a big cat and no doubt there more members of the family also in the planning stage.

I have no connection with the Hivewire3D team than being a happy customer, very active Dawn SE user, and someone who has found a home there after being, on the whole, constructively dismissed from Rendo forums. I would encourage anyone to have a look at Daz3D and Hivewire3D and make up their own minds but I personally think they are very different animals and it is fairly clear which I prefer.

but I suspect that the lack of non Dawn/Dusk/Luna products is a product of the fact it is a very small team and the reasons behind why that team was born.

Yes. It's a little more than that, though. Some of the familiar faces from here and DAZ are also present on Hivewire, but SOLELY for the sake of making Dawn/Dusk/Luna/Hivewire Horse products-- very few vendors use Hivewire as their main site (Nerd3D, Lisa's Botanicals, and Ken Gilliand are the only three who come to mind. SF Design sells the same products on Hivewire that they sell here. There's one other vendor who sells a lot of V4 stuff, but she sells the same products on other sites, too.) I do agree that they are very different in some ways, my main point is that I am not familiar enough with Hivewire to give much analysis beyond that I think their forum rules are a bit different. I have never bought anything from Hivewire-- I would like to, but the stuff I like (Songbirds and Lisa's Botanicals) are really expensive, and the point system is useless to me at this time (as I have not bought anything) The only time I saw stuff on sale was at Christmas, and I had already spent a ton at DAZ and RDNA (in addition, the Songbirds stuff was STILL pretty expensive even with the holiday sale) and their sales never seem to be very high-- only 30% off, 40% at the holidays, which isn't enough for a first-time buyer.

IceEmpress posted at 6:50PM Thu, 04 February 2016 - #4253114

but I suspect that the lack of non Dawn/Dusk/Luna products is a product of the fact it is a very small team and the reasons behind why that team was born.

Yes. It's a little more than that, though. Some of the familiar faces from here and DAZ are also present on Hivewire, but SOLELY for the sake of making Dawn/Dusk/Luna/Hivewire Horse products-- very few vendors use Hivewire as their main site (Nerd3D, Lisa's Botanicals, and Ken Gilliand are the only three who come to mind. SF Design sells the same products on Hivewire that they sell here. There's one other vendor who sells a lot of V4 stuff, but she sells the same products on other sites, too.) I do agree that they are very different in some ways, my main point is that I am not familiar enough with Hivewire to give much analysis beyond that I think their forum rules are a bit different. I have never bought anything from Hivewire-- I would like to, but the stuff I like (Songbirds and Lisa's Botanicals) are really expensive, and the point system is useless to me at this time (as I have not bought anything) The only time I saw stuff on sale was at Christmas, and I had already spent a ton at DAZ and RDNA (in addition, the Songbirds stuff was STILL pretty expensive even with the holiday sale) and their sales never seem to be very high-- only 30% off, 40% at the holidays, which isn't enough for a first-time buyer.

Some of the song birds and the botanicals can appear to be pricey but only in comparison with general releases. I think the point it that they are very high quality and there is not much available in competition with such products. Many of the dynamic dresses are around the $6 mark which is hardly pricey. The western tack I spoke of it on sale at less than $12 and one look at the promo video to see what is included shows just how much you get for your money.

The forums tend to be very friendly and welcoming and sales wise they are very family orientated and there is little to shock anyone, not something that could be said for some of the images at Rendo recently.

Daz do allow off site products in their promos as do HIvewire. Hivewire will also take off site add ons there are several n the store. When you create an account at Hivewire you are gifted points and on your birthday so you might find that you have points already.

IceEmpress posted at 5:08AM Sun, 07 February 2016 - #4252993

DAZ: Strict guidelines for products (must have metadata, many products rejected, etc.), super-strict forum TOS, no add-ons for off-site products, no off-site products in promo renders, Daz takes 50% of net vendor revenue-- more for non-exclusive products.

Can't speak to percieved "strict TOS", but except for not allowing to make addons for things that aren't sold in the store (since in the past those things disappeared from sale, leaving orphaned items) none of what you typed is correct.

DAZ makes the metadata for all products once they passed QA, it is a straight 50% commission and the product has to be exclusive or they'll remove it from sale, and products not sold in the store can be used in promos. I'm still using underwear from David 3 from a vendor no longer selling and various items from Rendo in my promos. As long as the promos look good, they don't care.

And yeah they do have higher standards so a lot of stuff gets rejected.

Male_M3dia posted at 1:01PM Sun, 07 February 2016 - #4253699

IceEmpress posted at 5:08AM Sun, 07 February 2016 - #4252993

DAZ: Strict guidelines for products (must have metadata, many products rejected, etc.), super-strict forum TOS, no add-ons for off-site products, no off-site products in promo renders, Daz takes 50% of net vendor revenue-- more for non-exclusive products.

Can't speak to percieved "strict TOS", but except for not allowing to make addons for things that aren't sold in the store (since in the past those things disappeared from sale, leaving orphaned items) none of what you typed is correct.

Now that makes perfect sense to me as, in the past, have I seen a few add-ons that I liked here at Rendo only to find the parent is no longer for sale.

_ If the vendor isn't willing to sell at Prime pricing then they shouldn't get the benefit of prime advertising_ Vendors no longer sell products released since the prime change at 3.50 because Rendo screwed them over by ending the rule that vendors did not have to pay the standard 50% royalties to Rendo for prime member pruchases of prime products. It is now much more costly for vendors to sell prime products, but Renderosity still likes to stick the blame on them for selling prime products at higher prices.

Some of the song birds and the botanicals can appear to be pricey but only in comparison with general releases. I think the point it that they are very high quality and there is not much available in competition with such products. When I say "pricey", I am not talking about "steep" or "overpriced" or anything like that. I simply mean that it is expensive. Regardless of quality or what you're getting, the songbird series cost a lot of money. Lisa's Botanicals do seem steep to me, but that is because most of her products were Platinum Club back when she sold at DAZ.

_ Many of the dynamic dresses are around the $6 mark which is hardly pricey. _ There is a reason for that (hint: cloth simulation, excepting capes, cloaks, blankets, and tablecloths, is not very popular-- it is a niche area. Some dynamics on Rendo not falling under the above categories do seem to sell well, though, and I have to give the guy who sells poser dynamic clothing for Genesis 2 major props, even though I do not and never will use Poser.)

and products not sold in the store can be used in promos Why have I never seen this, then, excepting Ken Gilliand and LB products in promos made before the launching of HiveWire3D?

I'm still using underwear from David 3 from a vendor no longer selling and various items from Rendo in my promos. As long as the promos look good, they don't care. Really? Weird. Are you allowed to list it in the credits?

Can't speak to percieved "strict TOS", but except for not allowing to make addons for things that aren't sold in the store (since in the past those things disappeared from sale, leaving orphaned items) none of what you typed is correct. The strict TOS I am referring to is for the forums, and not the store. Oh, I also forgot that unlike Rendo and RDNA, there is a no nudity rule on DAZ. This has been a problem for me since I like to know what color of nipples the gals with fantasy skins have >_>

_ and the product has to be exclusive or they'll remove it from sale,_ That was what I used to assume, until I noticed products sold both at DAZ and here, and finally due to what the official publishing faq says: http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/publishing/faq/percentage_of_sales/start The royalty rates for non-exclusive agreements are much lower, but decided on a product by product basis.

The FAQ also says that metadata has to be created by users, and it jives with complaints I've heard from vendors in the past 3 years. http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/userguide/creating_content/packaging/tutorials/adding_metadata/start Tools to create metadata for new products are provided with DAZ Studio 4. In the future, this may become automated as part of QA, but for now, this needs to be done by content creators for new products.

I'm still using underwear from David 3 from a vendor no longer selling and various items from Rendo in my promos. As long as the promos look good, they don't care. Really? Weird. Are you allowed to list it in the credits?

You don't list items not in the store or not available, but you are free to use them in promos.

Can't speak to percieved "strict TOS", but except for not allowing to make addons for things that aren't sold in the store (since in the past those things disappeared from sale, leaving orphaned items) none of what you typed is correct. The strict TOS I am referring to is for the forums, and not the store. Oh, I also forgot that unlike Rendo and RDNA, there is a no nudity rule on DAZ. This has been a problem for me since I like to know what color of nipples the gals with fantasy skins have >_>

Actually you can link to a gallery that has settings for mature flags and add that into your product description.

_ and the product has to be exclusive or they'll remove it from sale,_ That was what I used to assume, until I noticed products sold both at DAZ and here, and finally due to what the official publishing faq says: http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/publishing/faq/percentage_of_sales/start

No, they'll remove them. One product was offered here after being offered on DAZ last month, DAZ removed it from their store.

The royalty rates for non-exclusive agreements are much lower, but decided on a product by product basis.

I believe that only applies to software and some utilities, not content for figures. But it has to be negotiated when the product is accepted, not later.

The FAQ also says that metadata has to be created by users, and it jives with complaints I've heard from vendors in the past 3 years. http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/userguide/creating_content/packaging/tutorials/adding_metadata/start Tools to create metadata for new products are provided with DAZ Studio 4. In the future, this may become automated as part of QA, but for now, this needs to be done by content creators for new products.

No, it's done by QA when they make the installers. That's the "automated as part of QA" you just quoted. I've never had to make metadata for my products in the last 4-5 years since the introduction of DS4.

No, the quote says "in the future".

Tools to create metadata for new products are provided with DAZ Studio 4. In the future, this may become automated as part of QA, but for now, this needs to be done by content creators for new products.

Wow.. People weren't kidding when they said that documentation on Daz is horrible. The stuff I quoted is all incredibly vague, and the last quote apparently quite outdated. Yikes, and that is pretty critical stuff, too. Wow. O_o

IceEmpress posted at 2:54PM Sun, 07 February 2016 - #4253753

No, the quote says "in the future".

Tools to create metadata for new products are provided with DAZ Studio 4. In the future, this may become automated as part of QA, but for now, this needs to be done by content creators for new products.

Wow.. People weren't kidding when they said that documentation on Daz is horrible. The stuff I quoted is all incredibly vague, and the last quote apparently quite outdated. Yikes, and that is pretty critical stuff, too. Wow. O_o

I usually verify by email what should be done before I start, so I'm not doing things I don't have to.

The big thing is if you have any questions, it's quite simple to ask. So many times people just go off and say things that are wrong or outdated, when contacting them to get the info you need is easy to do. The metadata couldn't happen because there's no set up on where to put the info, so QA does it as they have the tools.

Nonetheless, it's the sort of thing that can scare vendors away, and there's really no excuse for whichever admin(s) design the site not to update that stuff, (or at least the metadata thing, I know for a fact that scares vendors) esp. since some of the rules you mentioned presumably wouldn't be explained to the would-be vendor unless they asked-- unless there's like-- some bullet list or long sheet of all the rules and such that someone automatically gets if they ask about becoming a vendor-- from the exclusives rule to no off-site linking or credits, no defunct product credits, to the very specific rules on nudity (no exposed female nipples or areola, no external genitalia, no butt cracks, no pubes even if it's a spot that is normally allowable with a brazilian wax, and probably some other stuff as well.)

Thanks for correcting me on the info, though.