Bloodsong and Bikermouse, [I'm posting this as a new message, since it really doesn't belong in the "hair file distribution" post.] Geats? Species?!? O ye gods and fishes!!!!! The "Matter of Beowulf" concerns Scandinavian peoples on Scandinavian soil, however, it is much closer to the "Matter of Arthur" than to the "Matter of Sigurd" in content, origin, and treatment. Therefore we usually think of it as an Old English subject rather than a story about Vikings. There is evidence (archeological, place-name, and documentary) that a Romano-British warlord fought several battles against the Saxons, and walloped them so decisively that after a final battle they went away to lick their wounds and didn't return for a hundred years... so legends grew around someone whose name could have been Artorius. OTOH, the Sigurd cycle is almost entirely mythological with many reworked myths included, and the few allusions to identifiable persons are poetic fancies. Wagner's Ring and Tolkien's LOTR are both modern offshoots from the basic story. Beowulf stands between Arthur and Sigurd. So now to Beowulf. About 500 AD the Roman Empire had collapsed and there were more than a dozen tribes fringing northern Europe: Franks, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, Hathobards, Lombards, Wulfings, Wends, Slavs, Goths, Brondings, etc., all of them bickering, constantly bickering. (If I were Snorri Sturluson, I'd tell you that there were 12 tribes, and then name 13.) The Geats were a tribe in southern Sweden. The various Danish and Swedish tribes have fought back and forth (for more than 1500 years!) for the sovereignty of the area around the strait (if you control trade, you get rich, and to control trade you need both sides of the waterway). Please note that Geats (2 syllables!!!) are NOT a species. Neither are Franks or Angles or Slavs. They might dress a bit differently, and speak a different dialect, and follow diferent kings, but their mixed offspring are quite fertile. The Geats are a Scandinavian tribe, with their own king, just before the Viking Age proper. Beowulf was a Geat, and we can date his story in real time. His uncle is King Hygelac. In 520-21 AD this king fought and defeated the Franks in a major battle. (This is a short while before the Franks defeated the Gauls and gave their name to France.) Beowulf might have been a real hero at a time when a single hero gathered legends the way a strong and wise king gathers followers. If so, he was born about 495, helped Hrothgar in what is now Denmark defeat some monster about 515, accompanied his uncle against the Franks and Frisians as noted above, and later took the Geatish crown, and ruled for a long time, but probably not the 50 years suggested by the poet. The archeologists who uncovered Sutton Hoo (burial mound from about 700 AD) quoted from Beowulf to describe their findings: even though that wasn't his burial mound, or the loot from a dragon's lair, the items were similar enough to bring pleased recognition. So, the Geats are no more a "species" or "character class" than any of our ancestors. They are simple a tribe of people, doing what all the peoples of that Age did: farm and fight and brag over their drinking horns while poets carefully shaped their words. Carolly

well, in creatures, geats are a species. remember, i'm not talking about REAL geats, i'm talking about artificial life creatures whose species names happen to be based on mythological/historical references from this area. (if you want to rant, email creature labs ;) ) i mean, they have breeds that have NO relation to tigers and bears, but are named bengal and bruin. er, anyway, i guess we really belong in the off topic forum. btw, i wanted to ask you how to pronounce geat. you say it's two syllables, but what do they sound like? gee-at? jee-at? gay-at?

Bloodsong, I like you! If you were in this room, I'd give you a hug. I warned you that I had an anvil, you wanted to see the anvil, I dropped the anvil on your toes, and now you want to see the maker's mark? ::chuckle:: I really like you. :) OK, I only have 3 versions of "Beowulf", all of them about 30 years old (no modern research) and a couple copies of "Grendel", by John Gardiner. I keep losing my loaner copy. If you haven't read it, I strongly recommend it as a most excellent antidote to all the bragging and breast-beating in Beowulf itself (and it is entertaining). However, I do not have an Old English or Anglo-Saxon Dictionary... and the O.E.D. has failed me. ::shocked look:: But my landlady has hundreds of dictionaries (Heather gets her Phd in Linguistics this month), so I've rummaged (pillaged) her library. Please don't mention the OT Forum. I will not post there. Besides, the first items that I'm going to model as Poser props are going to be Viking grave-goods in undamaged condition. I'd like to reconstruct the Oseberg Ship and all its furnishings, but that will be a shipload of work. (pun intended) Enough digression... back to Geats. Initial "G" is always pronounced hard as in go or give. The "e" has a long sign over it (which I can't do on this keyboard), and is pronounced long as in meet. "A" is slightly problematical: it is short, and can be pronounced as in father, but more likely as in cat or somewhere in between. So, your first stab: "gee-at" is right on. BTW, I wasn't ranting. I was fulminating. Rants are harangues which can go on for years (usually the 4th message in the thread is "not THIS again"), while fulminations are nicely timed explosions. ;^) For some reason I feel like settling down with this new copy of Beowulf (original text on facing page). I did say that I pillaged her library. ::not-very-innocent grin:: You'll probably have more questions (I expect you next to inquire as to what they wore) so I ought to gird myself with ring-bright mail and boar-crested helmet... or at least the words for them. Carolly

Thanks for the info on Geats. You make me want to break out the mythology books.

heyas; anvil? on my toes? you think i don't like hearing your expertise on history and mythology and all that? i wouldn't have asked if i didn't want to know. oh, fulminating. okay. i was going to tell you about all the people who were interested in your cultural mythology and how they were bringing it to light to the dim masses of popular culture.... but i expect you don't want to hear THAT. ;) i'm only worried that you don't seem to understand creatures. despite the names, they really have nothing to do with you, your ancestors, or your mythology. i mean, they could have as easily been named ronins and dingbats and tryzwimmits. grendels, although supposedly 'bad' creatures that hunt 'good' creatures are not attempting to BE grendel (with a capital g). on the other hand, you may be happy to know that many people love grendels (with a small g). the creatures are artificial life forms. they're not vikings. they don't resemble vikings in any way. they're not supposed to. they don't wear clothes. (well, okay, the creatures adventures/playground creatures do.) they don't sail ships. they don't have swords. you may be insulted that creature labs took the names from nordic mythology and history. i dunno, you may be even more insulted that they took the names for things they weren't even trying to make even vaguely nordic. and my last point is, i'm not worried about your anvil, because what or how they are named isn't MY fault. i had nothing to do with it. they did. i can't stop calling norns 'norns,' because i'm not in charge of the name. so there's really no point yelling at me, anyhow. :)

Bikermouse, you are welcome. Hey, Bloodsong, you're stealing my thunder! (pun intended - fulminate comes from the word for thunder) Actually, I am aware of what is done to cultural icons on games and entertainment. There was a game called Eric the Viking a few years back which was abominable, but almost fun. As much as I am concerned about authenticity, I, too, will set it aside when working on something more fairy-tale than real. One has to please the intended audience first and foremost. You know, a Norn without clothing is a scary thought. I know what happens to our breasts after age 40 or so... after a few thousand years they'd have to be tied up to keep them off the ground. ;^) I've had several years of life drawing with nudes: dancers, old men, pregnant women. Grendel would be ok: he has plenty of hair (I'm imagining something over-muscled and shaggy), but his mother? At least living under water, they'd be clean. Anyway, I can get a bit didactic at times, so stick a pin in me. If there is anything I can do to help you guys, just ask. Carolly