I suppose this is directed more at AgentSmith in terms of "is it feasible" ;) but I would appreciate feedback from everyone - i.e. what do people think? I was considering what would make a good prize (please, no guitars). My thinking was this: that whoever wins the contest is (a) definitely an excellent artist (b) probably not solely a hobbyist - or, at least, doesn't intend to be for very long! but (c) is certainly not so good they have nothing left to learn... So, why not have a prize of an in-depth critique from one (or more?) world-class artists - digital or otherwise - for the winner? Personally speaking, I can't imagine a better prize than having, say, Jim Burns / Boris Vallejo / insert name of your hero artist here give their views on my portfolio. Half a day of their time, spent putting together an honest assessment of how good an artist the you REALLY are... I know there are 1001 logicistal issues here, but I wondered what people thought about the concept. I mean, you can buy Bryce or a guitar from a shop, getting something like this is altogether more rewarding and, for most mortals, impossible to obtain.

great idea - infact if we could get them to judge the challenge?

Having them judge the contest, that was on the list from day one, no prob. I like the critique aspect of it a lot! The well-known judges were to be Bryce related people, but I don't suppose they would have to be... AgentSmith

I do like airflames idea about getting some of them to judge! About critique...Sure, why not, but speaking for myself, i dont really care if its a world-class artist or one of you guys giving me critique! It has equal value for me! They have different taste, just like any one of us!

I agree with the Judging, and a critique would be interesting, but as Rochr says, different tastes. I have seen a few critiques here at Rosity that sounded fairly professional.

I'd prefer to see the professionals judge the contest, and agree with Rochr that their critique would be about the same as having anyone else do it, prestigeous or not. Depending on the amount of entries though, how about the finalists or however it'd work with the judging panel assembling an art book of the best work, and publishing the work of the winner somewhere or a gallery to hold a show of the artist's best work? Maybe getting Computer Arts magazine involved or some other gallery or publishing firm. Just an idea.

Well I must say I like the idea but as Rochr said who does the critique isn't as important. Though I have to say it felt real good when I sent a copy of "Seadragon's Realm" to Tim Hildebrandt (because I got his permission to enter it in the challenge) and his reply was "Looks good. Greg Hildebrandt" Even those few words from a fairly famous artist felt damn good.

Oh great. I spent half an hour writing a response and when I posted it, Rendo completely ignored it and when I pressed back, it had gone. Nice one. In summary, then: 2 years ago, I wrote novel. People said it was great. I thought I could not do any better and sent it off to agents. They said it was OK, but not good enough to publish. Gave me detail on how to improve / revise. Instantly I could see what was wrong with it. The moral: Although the laymen knew what they liked, they didn't know what made a good book. Same with art. Ba-boom! OK, it was a bit more blunt the second time around, but it conveys the gist of what I was saying. I value professional opinion over layman's simply because they know the business. I know I'm officially a "newbie", having only been into digital art for a few months, and I've a l-o-o-o-o-ng way to go, but I have somewhat inflated ambitions and I know the fastest way to improve is to have my work torn savagely apart on a regular basis by people who are familiar with standards employed in the professional world of art. CTRL-C - remember CTRL-C!!!!.... >:]

Yeah, if anyone else doesn't know...if you take a while writing a reply out, I don't know, more than 15 minutes, when you click to post it, it sometimes won't post. ctrl+a (select all) ctrl+c (copy) That way, if your post doesn't make it, you just go back, paste it, and click to post again.

My bosses want the contest in the Renderosity magazine, that's for sure. Now, if I can get it into Computer Arts, and/or 3DWorld.... That will take some tactical planning, but it's on my "can't hurt to try/ask list". It may take the help of our sponsors. Any critique is great, but critique from someone that is at the top of their game, that's special. AgentSmith

I see your point, and these guys knows about the business, thats for sure! However, when it comes to artwork (paintings, drawings, CG, sculpturing, you name it), whos to say that "this is right", "this is how you should do this" etc...? Sure, Valejo is a master of fantasy, but that doesnt mean he knows anything about (for instance) scifi, right? Whats the point of having your work disected by someone who perhaps doesnt know crap about the genre? That would make him a "layman" in my eyes! Ive been working in the advertisement-business for almost 14 years now, and ive encountered a great deal of people getting an education at fancy artschools/design schools. Far to many of them have been thaught by professionals, to basically copy someone elses work, and not many of them have the ability to create some own material! Why...? The Pros have been telling them "how to do this", "how to do that" etc This is in fact the standards youre referring to! Now, as ive stated before, i speak only for myself, but the last thing im going to do, is copying others! Feel free to critisize my work, i dont mind to hear an opinion, but im creating whats inside my head, and not whats inside others! This is what Valejo and others are doing right now... But i really wish you good luck! You create great stuff and someday youll get there! :)

Okay Okay.... A professional critique would be very cool. I guess my lack of interest in Boris, Soryama or Julie Bell colored my opinion. If Alan Davis, and/or David Mazzuchelli critiqued my pencil work and or gave me a workshop on how to be better I'd be blown away.

A professional critique would be great, and the critquer should know something about a)the genre and b)the software...How will they critique, so many points for concept, so many for execution, for overall flow, for subject matter, etc. something to think about. Getting Computer Arts and 3D World involved, well, they have a large distribution base, anyone featuured would get a huge boost...just a thought... Zhann

I have found (IMO) that great art is great art, no matter whether it is photography, watercolor, 3D or anything in between. What makes any great art (again, IMO) is that the picture envokes an emotion from the viewer. It makes you FEEL, in whatever way, it makes you feel...something. Since this applicable to any art medium (really), I myself wouldn't mind who the critique was coming from. But, this contest is for you guys and gals, not me. I'm just throwing out some thoughts. And, I will add again, I think the critique would be even more special if it came from someone big in the 3d world, their critique would hit closer to home, I believe. AgentSmith

Hi, Rochr, yes you make some good points. Especially about people copying others. I try very hard not to copy, myself, but I reckon if I was the sort to do so I'd copy some of your stuff!!!! One last point, though - I would add (from my limited knowledge) that although most pro artists specialise for their partiular niche, "behind the scenes" they are usually master of a fair range of genres and methods. But I'm probably getting ahead of myself. After all, the chances of me personally winning are pretty slim ATM! ;) Maybe there could be a range of prizes, and the winner pick one. There might be a little lag between winning and getting the prize, but would anyone mind? But I'm in a very benevolent mood today as Hawk Jones just emailed me to say I'd got a Kota Press Gold award for "The Viaduct". Having said that, seeing all the incredible digital images that surround it makes me realise just how much of a newbie I REALLY am!!!

partiular = particular

If i came out a little harch, i apologize! It wasnt my intention, simply my opinion! And congrats to the award! Well deserved for a great piece! :)

Thanks Rochr, appreciated. Love the latest pic, BTW!

I agree that a proffesional critique would be a great idea. My suggestion for the winning prize would be Bryce 6, it seems appropriate. TT.

Rochr, I think you can be certain that Boris Vallejo knows SF. :-) One of the reasons for having professionals judging the contest is to have people who "know the business". It's not just a genre, but the artisan side of illustrations, too. And Vallejo can tell you a lot there. Just like Michael Whelan, Jim Burns, Tim Hildebrandt or some people who are here at Renderosity. (Yes, there are some professionals here, AFAIK.) So the judging panel should be mixed. Both illustration professionals and program professionals. Both in one person, for preference. :-) Having the contest in Renderosity Magazine would be great, and I think that Computer Arts might be interested enough to put out a special issue. They had something similar with an artistic college.

Valejo was just an example! What do i know, the man can be a scifi expert... :) As far as the judging goes, i think its a great idea, but having the work criticized by a pro wouldnt mean more to me, than having the work criticized by one of you guys! Criticism, in my opinion, is still a matter of ones own taste! I rather read a tutorial instead! Its like composing music (yes, i do that as well)! If i compose a track and a pro musician comes, "instead of taking that chord, try this one instead" "try these drums here instead" etc, how much of my own originality would be left in the end...?

...but i really should keep my mouth shout... I would probably be lucky to even qualify for this contest. :)

Agent Smith - "make it so".Serously we should have someone who knows what they are talking about judging these challenges rather than people voting from a 'how hard was that to do in bryce 'point of view or 'they're all crap bar one' point of view.

Firstly Tuttle congrats for thinking up a Brilliant idea for a prize (though I do miss million dollars, rubber chicken and or fake breasts! :-P) Im putting in Doug Chiangs name too. But for judging I do feel Bryce related artists would make sensefor a Bryce Guru. Otherwise we could just have a Fantasy/ Sci-Fi art contest, and not put any limit on the S/W used! Rather let the picture speak for itself! Do I smell another contest here! ;-) Hmm Rudi, so you put in an extra year on me in the ad biz (Ive 13, PS, you in client servicing or media or copy. From your grouse, you definitely arent in the art department!!!!! :-P ) hmmmthat definitely disqualifies you as a Guru!!!!! :-P I think there are two aspects herestretching Bryces limits and secondly the work as a stand alone art. Having each work evaluated on both counts and then tallying scores might be a way of judging them! But while we are talking about judgingIm not too keen about the voting and then to 20 making it! The point is, if somebody has made an image the least that can be done is have the judges at least view them! Not to mention have people scampering for aliases to vote to be seen!!! ( I remember a few great images being left out in the Win Bryce 5 just cos they didnt have adequate votes! Thats sad!). And also Erlik, Boris knows Fantasy, Chris Foss knows Sci-fi ;-) and I know I need to get back to Booleaning! :-P

The two I'd like judging my work, I think are dead, Frank Frazetta and Jeff Jones, I could be wrong. I thought their stuff was great, the start of fantasy illustration (way before Valejo, Hildebrandt, etc.)...

Voting - it was "suggested" to me that members vote on the pics, and narrow it down to a smaller number, then the well known judges step in and make the final judgements. If there are a TON of entries, this may have to be done. I would like to just have the well known judges do it all, lol. I still have bad after tastes in my mouth after other contests. If members vote at all, I don't think I'll have a problem with having Renderosity log ISP's for the votes, to keep it fair. AgentSmith

Well, Humorix, we can have a holy war about what's fantasy and what's SF. Only remember that nobody solved the problem of finding the divide. :-P On other counts, I somehow find the idea of having members vote and then a panel of professionals judge-- I think that we should stick to a panel. After all, Bryce and art professionals should judge the works just because they know more. Think of it as a different monthly challenge. A Bryce Guru would be as equal to the professionals as the Challenge winners are first among equals here.

Just my input - I would not like it if Rendo members did the prejudging. This, to me, would be a bad thing, and would defeat the purpose of having guru judges in the first place. If there would be too many entries to judge (is that likely?), then maybe we'd have to think up some other solution, but I don't think this is the answer.

I too, would rather the judges see as many, if not hopefully ALL the entries. Otherwise, a lot of members will feel as if they weren't really involved, as if they truly walked away with nothing. It is likely that there will be a lot of entries. When you have grand prizes worth $400-$1000, and do lots of advertising, then the entries will come. Hey, if we can get the big judges to look through 200+ entries, no prob. AS

Humorix - I meant that the critique should be the SECOND prize. First prize, obviously, should be the fake breasts. I thought that went without saying... ;) AgentSmith - good stuff. Another thought, however - and I'm sure I'm jumping the gun here, with too many details, but it got me thinking... If, say, a competition has 500 entries, and 3 are picked as winners, there are 497 people who have entered but not received any feedback, not really gained anything from it. What then is the possiblity of judging by points allocation, with each judge assigning between 1 and - say - 20 points to each image. That way everyone wins in some small way (figuratively speaking!) because everyone gets some useful feedback. Fair enough, it might be too much of a ball-ache to implement, but it's an idea... Thoughts?

Avi - Started out with illustrations and ended up as AD. ...guess its one of very few advantages with working at a smaller firm... :)

Tuttle, the point system might not be that way off. I want the people who don't win to come away with something. What I'm going to do is see if I can get some regulars who post freestuff, to donate some work to package up and give to all the members who enter, stuff that would only be available throught the Guru. Another incentive to enter the contest. AS

"The two I'd like judging my work, I think are dead, Frank Frazetta and Jeff Jones, I could be wrong. I thought their stuff was great, the start of fantasy illustration (way before Valejo, Hildebrandt, etc.)..." Barring them dying after I write this, I believe both are alive- although I think Mr. Frazetta is officially retired from all work (even conventions), but he has a museum that he and his lovely wife run. I think both have websites so check it out by keywording their names. Someone else comes to mind, especially in light of our French members, Jean Gir (Mobius). I think he could be a great judge of Scifi/Fantasy.

Ohhhh, Mobius...love that guys work.

AS, I think if you want to get a gallery of professional artists to critique/judge/whichever, you better start taking a list of who people would LIKE to see, if possible, doing this task. Just a thought. I have ideas if you want them.

I started various lists a long time ago. ;o)

and this is the place to let ANY ideas whatsoever spill out.

Well as far as using a scorecard to judge entries, this idea I like a lot and had the same idea for the monthly challebge. 1-5 would be scored in subcategories for the pic (ie. composition, originality, colors content, etc.) to name some examples. Then those scores totalled to give an overall score, this lead to the drawback of possibly having ties with different pics having different scores in the categories but the total points being equal.

Why, thank you tjohn, I never thought to check online, duh.:p I have some of Frazetta's books, but never really found much info on Jones except his book covers on some of my favorites...

"this lead to the drawback of possibly having ties with different pics having different scores in the categories but the total points being equal" All you need to is increase the poss. points; the more points you mark from the less chance of a tie. Eg if you mark from 100 points then the chance of a tie is much reduced.

tuttle, what does that mean exactly...

Tuttle, it's also possible for the judges to re-judge the ties, no? As to the list of names ... yeah, can have a looong list. :-) AgentSmith, could you possibly check with ASFA (Association of SF Artists), www.asfa.org? Or check Slawek Wojtowicz's site at http://www.slawcio.com/artsf.html? He has zillion links to artists' sites. Other possibilities include people who do illustrations for Computer Arts and other magazines.

uhm, hate to break it to you, asfa.org is for dog lovers. (American Sighthound Field Association ) (Slighthound is a type of dog) But, thanks for the other link, I will go through it! AgentSmith

LOL...:)

I hate it when I enter link by heart and it turns out I misremembered: http://www.asfa-art.org/ :-)

Lol...thanks, amazing site, had never ran across it before.