Being an owner of Poser 3 & 4 it was with some anticipation I waited for 5. The price was a bit steep so I let the magic of the internet provide me with an evaluation copy.

After playing around with it, I must say that I'm impressed.

The new rendering engine works wonders (even if it takes a while).
Hair is fantastic.
Cloth is also a great feature.
Materials are much more powerful (although a bit more difficult).
Collision detection is helpful.
The included characters are much better.
The help is actually helpful (when did you last see that in a program?).

The UI has been cleaned up (although it still retains the wierd, non-windows style). Many of the things I've been whining about has been fixed: grouped dials, properties more accessible on a tab near the dials, support for subdirectories for characters and other stuff, real world units, ability to render images larger than 4096x4096 and a general increase in responsiveness.

Some smaller problems remain.
The hierachy window can not be sized, which leads to a lot of unnessesary scrolling.
Point at main camera seems to point at active camera (so when I point the eyes at main camera and then switch to face cam to see a close up, they are staring into the face cam instead).
I would like to set a preferred state for both document and UI, not just previous state (some moron may play around with my computer and mess up things...).
Since render times are longer, it would be nice with an auto minimize until done option. Better responsiveness/redraw of the UI while rendering would also be nice.
A possibility to define keyboard (or even game controller) shortcuts for dials would speed up work a lot. Preferably I would like to define skortcuts for a dial name (all dials with the same name share the same shortcut) to increase or decrease it, or to select it. A global shortcut to increase or decrease selected dial would be good for the less commonly used dials.
Some smaller bugs exist, but less than in Poser 4.

As you can see, my complaints are minor, and since several of them can be fixed easily, I hope they will be included in an update.

My over all impression is very good. CL has managed to make a good product better. I wonder what will come in Poser 6? Soft flesh? Non-cracking crotches? Auto installer for downloaded props/characters/stuff? Windows UI? Multiprocessor support? Multimonitor support? "Auto-grip" objects (positioning a hand can take more time than the rest of the scene...)? I can hardly wait!

I made a rendering for use as wallpaper at 6400x1200 pixels, and it is damn near photorealistic straight out of the rendering engine using only stuff that is included with Poser 5. It took a day to render, but it was worth it.

It is great. I can hardly wait for payday so I can run out and buy a legitimate copy! Trust me, it is worth it.

OK???

I didn't know there was an Evaluation Copy of Poser 5. I don't find it on the Curious Labs site.

"...so I can run out and buy a legitimate copy." "Evaluation copy" in this instance is a ephemism for warez. This person is so busted.

There is no official evaluation version, I used a third party produced version (sometimes called pirated version). Yeah, I know you are not supposed to do that, but I have a limited amount of money to spend and a lot of software is crap. I want to try them out before I buy. If it's good, I buy, otherwise I uninstall and stop using it. Legally, I may be in a grey area, but no one can convince me that buying quality software instead of software with pretty covers is bad for the software industry or immoral. Other people may use pirated software in other ways, but that is their responsibility. I feel that my use is quite responsible. Besides, what's the problem? It is a great product which I intend to buy as soon as my paycheck arrives.

"what's the problem" Just wait and see.

Hey, I need a car, think if go steal one and try it out for few days and like it , that I should go ahead buy one(just like the one stole ... but with title and tags)... I can pay for it payday?

Sure Niles! The judicial system is real nice about this too. They give you room and board until the check comes in. :-)

Gimme a break. It is a crime about the same size as peeking at your christmas presents. I own and paid for Poser 3 & 4. I even paid full price for Poser 4, even though it was released less than two months after I bought Poser 3 (which is why I wanted to try Poser 5 first). I will not spread it further. If I had not liked it, I would have uninstalled it. I only use it for hobby use, so it is my own hard earned money I spend, not company money. If you seriously think I'm hurting CL, please explain why. The only reason any company could be hurt by this type of use is if their products are crap, and then they should get off the market and provide space for better products. Could we now discuss the real content of my initial message: my points in Poser 5? It is a much more interresting discussion and one that we might not have heard a hundred times before.

it may not be crime to use pirated software, but it is a crime to pirate it., and people that downloaded just encourage more of it.

You downloaded a pirated copy of Poser 5 from a site which is harming Curious Labs' business - it doesn't matter whether you pay for it, there are plenty using that site who won't - and now you want to give CL helpful advice on how to improve it? ROTFL. Now you have an interesting ethical dilemma. Do you attempt to regain your law-abiding credentials by shopping this warez site - or do you let it be in case you need to "evaluate" something else? No, I think this is the really interesting discussion. I look forward to seeing how long it lasts. :D

what you have is a illegal copy of poser 5,, no matter how you put it or how you got it. hiding behind impressive words dosen't make it legal. i'm sure you haven't hurt CL much, since they have already did that themselfs by releasing a permature product which everyone ( most of everyone) complains about. so the next time you feel like spreadin joy and praise,, go to a preist and make a confession. do it here and shit will hit the fan.

Actually, I did not download it off a warez site. A friend sent me ISOs of his (or her, I don't want to implicate anyone) legitimate copy of Poser which I used. As for me giving advise on improvement, isn't it the suggestions that count, not how I reached that conclusion? You can drop the quotes around evaluate. If I didn't intend to buy it, I would not have mentioned the origin of my copy at all.

Just above this thread is a link, you can go check it out. Poser5 beta forum.

Now the story will change and change But a word of advice troberg you have an illegal copy of P5 if it was a "friends" legal copy you couldn't install it. If it's a "friends" warez copy it's illegal and you will be hard press to get anyone here to listen to your reasoning However there was a house down the street that no one lived in so I just moved in "to see if I like it" if not I'll clean up my mess and move on otherwise when my Check come I will buy it so come over I'll listen to you we aren't hurting anyone especially THE MAN and FAT CORPORATIONS right. sorry all I had to do it I didn't think this thread would be open this long FLAME ON

not agreeing with the use or abuse of warez...we all know where that's at...but I'm sure there are plenty of people that do the exact same thing, obtain warez as a way to evaluate a program...especially when the developer has NO DEMO. Not saying its right, but CL, in this case, leaves themselves more open to this happening by not having an evaluation copy. Another problem that furthers warez use, is that with demo software, many times certain features are blocked, saves, exporting, etc...which basically makes the program useless for evaluation anyway, other than mainly learning the interface and a few features. I think the way to avoid a portion of warez use is by providing a full featured eval copy...timed and protected...just like CL originally did with P5....so that there is no way a normal person would ever crack it....then, if the person likes it, he sends the cash, gets the final key, and the full box is in the mail....sorta like shareware :) Not condoning warez, as its obviously an illegal undertaking...but I think companies could at least reduce it. There is no way it will ever be stopped completely... The real issue here is the realization of how many people think it is ok to use warez....illegal or not...or just don't care that they're stealing...what's wrong with people ???

troberg, I'll take some of the lightning for you. Since you intended to evaluate only, what you did was equivalent to shareware. Altho I recognize and acknowledge the "evils" of warez for purposes of use without payment, if it was me, I wouldn't feel very guilty about making use of warez to evaluate a product that I was unsure of. Especially in light of the "bug-free" product that CL originally released. And, to use someone else's example, you can evaluate a car before you buy it: it's called a test drive. And, NO, what troberg did is NOT analogous to "borrowing" someone's car off the street and "test-driving" that: while troberg had his borrowed copy of Poser 5, no one else was deprived of it's use. If CL had released a time-limited evaluation of Poser 5, no one would have purchased it after the evaluation because it was so riddled with bugs.

"But a word of advice troberg you have an illegal copy of P5 if it was a "friends" legal copy you couldn't install it. If it's a "friends" warez copy it's illegal and you will be hard press to get anyone here to listen to your reasoning" I'm a professional programmer. It took me fifteen minutes to fool the registration procedure. CL has not even tried to make it difficult. Don't insult my intelligence. And no, I will not tell you or anyone how I did it. As a professional programmer, I am well aware of the problems of piracy. Still, I do not mind if someone tries my products with intent to buy if they like them, because I make good programs and trust my work. I have been burned so many times by buying products that look good until you try them. A rough estimate is that I've bought software for som $4000 which I have installed, tried and uninstalled. If you add what I've bought for work that is juat taking up shelf space you could easily increase that number by a factor of 10. So excuse me if I do not want to increase that amount, in the process supporting crappy products that the market would be better off without. I bought Bryce without testing it, and have not been able to use it because it puts the work area smack in the middle of the crack between my two right monitors. That's an expensive mistake that could have been avoided easily by testing. Also, let me make one thing very clear. If I couldn't try it, I would not buy it. For CL, the choice is between waiting a couple of weeks for the order or not getting it at all. I don't buy a car from someone who does not allow me to test drive it (actually I've done that two times, but that was from people I trust who lives in another town). As for your examples, they are just plain stupid. A copy does not deprive anyone the possibility to use the original the way stealing does. See the difference between law and morals. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't. The law does not provide the possiblity to test software (actually, here it does...), but is it moral to pay big money to companies that tries to fool you with bad products with nice covers?

Everyone, please stop making comparisons between troberg's use of warez Poser 5 and use of physical things like houses and cars. The analogies do not stand. If you use a non-digital thing, you are either adding wear and tear to that thing and/or depriving the rightful owner their simultaneous use of it. If you could borrow any car off the street and NOT deprive the owner of its use and NOT put wear and tear on the car, THEN your analogy would be valid. As to "supporting" the warez "industry", you are assuming that those guys are cracking products because there is a market for it. Gimme a break, those guys do it BECAUSE THEY CAN! It's a technological challenge. They do it to prove that they are better programmers than the guys who tried to invent the protection schemes. They don't do it as a public service because troberg needs an evaluation version. They'd do it even if no one ever downloaded their crack.

"Those of us who pay for things up front are the ones who are punished with rising prices and work places with paranoia mentalities." No, the rest of us are the ones who suffer because you feed crappy products which smother the good ones, since you do not care about the quality of the product you are about to buy. "They do it to prove that they are better programmers than the guys who tried to invent the protection schemes." Which does not prove much more than they put a bit of effort in it, something most protection schemes lack. I'm not involved in the warez scene, but I have several friends there (I'm a programmer, remember. At least a third of the professional programmers are more or less involved in the warez scene.) and I agree with bitplayer that it is not an "industry" or "anticorporation guerilla". For most of them it is kind of a (somewhat wierd) tribute when they crack a program. Most of them would not bother to crack a bad program. I do not agree with them on this, but they are not the organized threat to the software industry that some people think. Hacking is not always bad. I have disassembled and fixed a driver which did not have support for multiprocessor systems. I even documented my changes and sent them to the manufacturer. I got a very nice reply where they thanked me, and in the next revision, multiprocessor worked fine in the official release. Can we please talk poser now?

Dude... you should have read the forums before, you would have found out that NO mention of warez of anykind is allowed here. Nobody's gonna talk poser in this thread or any you started because of the warez issue now. Hey, you were the one that opened that can of worms.

Valandar, considering the original release of Poser 5... 1) bug-riddled 2) offensively restrictive EULA 3) machine-dependent activation 4) reduced price within weeks of release ...I think this is a can of worms that NEEDS to be opened. Who is more unethical here: troberg or CL? I invite everyone to respond to my message "Yes...but is it ethical" that was posted a short while ago (a different thread).

Yeah, I can see that, and it pisses me off big time. I agree that I'm in a moral grey area, but it is a very light grey (something like 0xFEFEFE) and shouldn't have to be controversial at all. It is a good prog, I'm buying it. I did not even put any load on CL's server while evaluating it. What the f**k is the problem? My guess is that people are annoyed because they realize that they could have avoided spending money on bad software. It is the same thing you can see when people buy a car. It is always the best car, even if it is a pile of junk that is only held together by the paint. They just can not admit having made a mistake.

Actually, I don't think the bugs are that bad. Poser 4 was worse. I don't like machine-dependent activation, but I can live with it (although I'll probably apply my fix to the license I buy just to avoid the hassle). Price reductions immediately after release just shows contempt for the dedicated customers, but I never buy anything immediately after release so it does not bother me much. Bad EULAs is sadly a common theme in the industry and it is getting worse. This is an area where people should complain. There is a strong movement in the industry for "Pay-per-use"-schemes, which I find despicable.

well haven't you learn yet about the mistake you just made?

Sorry, I just can't help defending myself when I'm getting flamed.

Well don't be surprised if CL or rosity comes after you for admitting that you cracked poser 5. and for warezing defending yourself .. should have read the TOS before you joined up.

Ye gods, haven't they made the hierarchy editor window expandable?????? Using it is like keyhole surgery.

"Well don't be surprised if CL or rosity comes after you for admitting that you cracked poser 5. and for warezing" That would only have one effect. I would not buy it. No court in the world (or at least not Sweden) would even try the case, and if they would, all the material in question would become evidence, which is public material available free to anyone who wants it... You are so stuck up on semantics that you can not see any difference between me trying a product before I decide to buy it and real piracy where a product is spread to hundreds of distribution sites within hours of release. Open your eyes. Do you think it is better if I do not buy Poser 5 at all and stick with my Poser 4? But of course, you are so perfect and without fault that you glow in the dark in your little black and white world. You never drive too fast or walk against a red light. You never borrow a taped movie from a friend (which is worse than what I did since you probably won't buy it). You never neglect to sort your trash. You never read private email at work. Well, I do. I'm human. I don't pretend to be perfect. Live with it. I do. There are bigger issues in the world. "Ye gods, haven't they made the hierarchy editor window expandable?????? Using it is like keyhole surgery." Finally something about poser! Yep, it is fixed size. Actually I would have liked to have it as a floating window that acted as an alternate way to select elements. Sometimes it is just too much random clicking before you hit what you are looking or.

I would suggest that you wait a couple of weeks thenre-register under a different name because people around here tend to be very self-righteous about any violations of the Almighty EULA (which has the force of Scripture, so it would seem). Personally I'm "pro-choice" on these issues. The law has settled only the legal part of the issue. the moral/ethical part is something that everyone should decide for themselves. What you did is definitely illegal, but you will have to decide for yourself if it is morally and ethically acceptable. Don't let anyone try to decide for you. that's where most of the problems in the wo9rld come from, people letting others think for them rather than take the time and effort to think for themselves.

hey i got a idea.. I'll go cut a big tree down, and sculp it into a huge cross,, put it on top of the Ros Hill, and then go look for the folks who are selling the nails to pound into his hands and feet, and have a good old time. cause i think thats is what going to happen to the one who ranting about the illegal copy he made and posted it in this forum. soo what do you say,, anyone got some nails for sale?

"What you did is definitely illegal" Not in Sweden. I have at no point in this discussion expressed any favourable opinion about true piracy, where programs are spread on a massive scale over the world faster than the official distribution channels. This is what is happening to movies. LOTR could be downloaded of the internet two months before the official release. Be happy this is not happening to your favourite software. Besides, if I could even have tried it in a shop that would have been sufficient. In Sweden we have a saying: "Don't buy the pig in a sack". You have to inspect the merchandise before you buy or you will invite bad business methods. "I would suggest that you wait a couple of weeks thenre-register under a different name" Nah, I will not be intimidated. If people can't stand me, it is their problem. If the discussion can't take different viewpoints, it is everybodys loss. Besides, I'm not very active here anyway, it will soon be forgotten.

Sargebear, you really havn't heard or understood a word I've said, have you? My copy might have been illegal in countries with weak consumer protection, but not in Sweden (where I am). In two weeks time, I will buy a legal license. I already own legal licenses of P3 & P4. Number of images made with test license: 1. Number of other people I've spread copy or crack to: 0. Number of lines concerning this in my initial post: 2. Number of lines concerning Poser, mostly praise: around 60. People read my post and decide to jump on two lines that may in their small minds be considered morally qusetionable. No please motivate how you can accuse me of starting the rant!

Troberg, you'd be very welcome over on the Poser 5 beta forum. It might even tempt Curious to respond (we haven't heard a peep out of them for weeks now). It'll make a nice change to hear someone with something positive to say. I even ended up defending an aspect of the program from the guy who runs the company! Actually, it seems they've been too busy making a (to quote Petunia) "poohware ornamental" application to spare time for us.

If we want to be truly iconoclastic about this, consider the following, folks: Models of 57 Chevys sold by Dudley? Theft of trademark. Freestuff models of Harleys? Theft of trademark. Almost the entire Animotions website? Theft of trademark. Someone doing a morph of Spike or Buffy? Theft of trademark. Martian Manhunter's handle? Theft of trademark. Shall I continue? Troberg has stated over and over that it was a test drive, perfectly legal in Sweden, and that he plans on getting the proper licence. But you're running wild with the assumption that he's some kind of warez kitty who's ripping off the system. Well, start cleaning your own houses first, okay? Delete all those Wonder Woman textures and those "looks like Scully" morphs. Unless they were authorized by DC Comics or the X-Files production company, you're stealing, pure and simple. Doesn't feel quite so good when the shoe's on the wrong foot, huh...

However atthisstage many of the models and textures you name say "FOR NON-COMMERCIAL USE" so if you use them commercially it's at your own risk not the modeler or texturer

{but I have a limited amount of money to spend} Ah, the oldest justification for using warez. "But it's so expensive" "I don't have any money", and so on. And, no, you can not compare software to physical things. If you test drive a car, you give it back when your're done- you don't make your key, drive it around whenever you want, give your friends a key, and let them drive it around. With software, once you "unlock" (or in this case, "crack" it), you can copy it as many times as you want, give it to whomever you want, and they can copy it and give it to whomever they want. If you want a "demo" copy, ask the company if they have one available. If not, you'll have to base your buying decision on the experiences of other people. If you want to praise a piece of software, that's great... just don't mention that it's a pirated/ cracked version... even if it is "legal" to use "cracked" software in Sweden... which I doubt it is, unless Sweden doesn't agree to InterPol policies on copyright issues. ----------- atthisstage- The spirit of "Theft of trademark" is that one person has taken something of someone else's and is either selling it or passing it off as their own. We all know that the people who make these free items have made the Poser version and not the original thing. How is it "stealing" if someone makes a Batman figure for Poser (for free)? How are you taking money from DC Comics? Yes, if you sell the figure, then you are making money off someone else's trademark, but most companies have allowed their creations to be "adapted" for 3-D programs. {Martian Manhunter's handle? Theft of trademark.} This is doubtful- has DC copyrighted the two names together? Is this person (on Renderosity) going around claiming that he's a green shape-shifter from Mars? It's like someone using "Batman" as a handle- perfectly legal as long as it can not be confused with DC Comics Batman character.

8 )

The TOS has been revised reguarding warez:

Renderosity maintains a Zero Tolerance on certain behaviors within the community:

Soliciting or Trading of any products illegally. This includes, but is not limited to, requests and/or distribution of computer software, software security overrides, serial numbers and/or admission of use or possession (warez).