Dear Poser Community: As the Webmaster of Propguild I'm thinking to close the site In support to Chris as one of our contributors Members, we will close the propsguild to preserve all the contributor members work save of thieves like this. I guess the best way to support the actions that we will be taken is to email this guy and tell him what you think about people like him who stole other people's work. Copy right violator We will close the propsguild site the next april 28th 12:00 AM. Sorry for the inconvieniece but we have not other option to protect our contributor members work. If the violator removes his stolen stuff from his site the Propsguild will comes back online again. Thanks for your understanding and support. Best Regardings. Virus Propsguild Innercircle member and Webmaster.

So sad. :-( Isn't here a way in this day and age to verify the person asking for the download. Knew this might happen, it's stomach churning...

This sucks! I mean that we all have to pay for some person's disregard of other peoples rights. Perhaps you should password the site. I really hate to see our tight little community fall apart due to ONE PERSON who is a thief. I've been coming to this site for at least two years and have always been in awe of the way everyone stands together. On the other hand I can understand where you are coming from. I think that it is time to let this guy know, politely (not that I don't want to blast him/her). How we feel as members of this community. Perhaps not just the character creators should inform him. WOW... The Props Guild! That was the first Poser site that I happened upon 2 years ago... makes me want to scream.

One thing everyone can do to help is to fill this butthole's box full of mail expressing your concerns on the mattr and demand that this looser closes his shop and removes all the illegal content. He claims to he's only selling them as a conversion process, by making the figures max compatible, which everyone who owns Poser knows that Poser exports to .3ds(3d studio format). We need to band together as a community and let this guy know that we are not going to stnad for this. We have done so in the past and had similar problems fixed within just a couple of days. Renderosity has 13,000 registered members, imagine getting 13,000 emails in one day...... FastTraxx

I thrust that everyone realizes that the logic behind this action is somewhat ridiculous? It doesn't do anything to the guy who's been stealing the work (except that he can't steal some more from that one site). The only thing it does do is put pressure on innocent users to do something to the guy. I'd call that blackmail. And not directed at the bad guy. And say that he is shut down. What then? Does the site get taken down everytime someone misuses something one of the members puts there? What's being done is equivalent to a software maker completely pulling a popular program off the shelves because some moron somewhere pirated the program. Instead of going after the guy doing it, they're punishing everyone but the guilty party. Pardon the honesty, but I find that incredibly stupid.

I'm sorry to see the Props guild go, I've visited there often. I understand why your doing it but I don't like it :( And Keith you have to look at it this way, alot.. well I'd wager to assume MOST of us do not have the resources to "go after this guy" unlike the companys that go after piraters and hackers. -Phoenix

I agree with Keith, the guy's already got what he want's from Propsguild, closing the site down only punishes everyone else and not the person who needs punishing. I seem to remember this happened the last time someone posted some models that weren't theirs. I am sorry, but if you post things on the internet eventually, someone, somewhere will abuse them, it's the risk you take. I write shareware software, and I dare say a lot of users either hack it or get hold of a pirate copy, but I accept that for what it is, part of the net. It's not right and it's not fair, but that is the way it is. I don't go withdrawing my applications from the majority because the minority get up my nose, nor do I stop supporting existing customers, because of the dishonesty of the few. Secondly, this email thing is a bad approach, firstly, he will probably just filter it all out anyway, secondly, does anyone have an email account that can hold that much mail. I think there might be a lot of members in this community getting a lot of automatically returned mail because he doesn't have the space for it to be delivered. Talk about a back fire. Despite this though, in essence I agree that the guy needs to be punished but do it properly, seek legal action, let Zygote get him, just don't go stooping to his level. He's the one being petty here (a petty theif that is), but don't let him make you the same way too. Dave - being thankful that while people pirate my stuff too, at least I don't know who they are. It's when you find out that things get dirty.

I'm with Keith on this one. Complete overeaction. Completely wrong reaction. Target the asshole stealing the work, not everyone else who you were making it available for in the first place.

Keith: You are not a contributor member of the propsguild, my interest is to protect the contributor members rights, thats why the Propsguild has growing, because the contributor members, and I'm sorry if you don't like the measure, but we are trying to preserve our contributor members rights. The most important issue for the propsguild is its members, we are not suggesting black mail or whatever, most of our members can't afford a lawyer to get after their copy rights violators, we belive this is the only way to let it know a pirate that we have a support of a big community, the contraty will make us think that our work was futile. I know that this measure could sound "stupid" or what ever you want to call it, but as i told you my only concern are the propsguild contributor members copy rights. We have trying other ways to let this guy know that his pirated stuff is violating Zygote and other Author's rights, and he won't listen to us. So This was the ultimate way We can find to try to defend our members rights. The Propsguild is all its members no more, not less, if one of our members is attacked the whole guild will defend she (he), until the last concecuemces. The propsguild could be nothing without its members. I hope you understand this.

Personally, I don't agree with the action, but I support it. Something needs to be done, and this may be the only available recourse, sadly.

I believe the PropsGuild will do right by it's members. I support them in whatever action they take. Anyone who is not a member has no right to judge them. The core PropsGuild membership has done a lot for this site and still contribute their time and models for free. I say honor and support them. Serpent

I say it sucks, but I can understand how it works. If people started stealing my stuff (as if), I'd probably get pissed and stop posting it too... I can understand where you're coming from. I'm sure we'll all miss it, though. =) Rosh

I still do not see how you can justify this. You say it is to protect your member's rights, fair enough, but please remember that without the masses of visitors you get, who you are now punishing, though admittedly that is not your intention, you would likely have no site, and thus no members. They would have to post their work elsewhere, where it would be just as much at risk as anywhere else on the net. Not having the finances to punish the culprit of the crime does not and should not give anyone the right to tkae it out on everyone else. I don't, why should you (see my post above)? We all know (unless we are ignorant or truly innocent) that many 3D apps are available on warez sites. How would your mebers feel if Metacreations (or whoever owns poser now) turned around and said that they were withdrawing support and removed all the poser related content from their site, stopped selling it, abandoned the fabled poser 5 etc, just because they caught someone using a pirated copy of poser 4. Would that still be classed as 'protecting copyrights' or would it seem a little more like a big company being melodramatic. Dave - now really feeling sick to the eyballs after his machine blue screened whilst halfway through reading an email.

One point I'd like to make - I don't THINK they're PERMANENTLY closing the Props Guild, just until this pirate site is taken down. That's a fine distinction, I'll admit, but most of the outrage I see here, seems to be for a permanent removal of the guild, which I would not support. A temporary closing - perhaps to resurface with more protection of the files, perhaps not - is extreme, but not uncalled-for. A permanent closing would be cutting off your nose to spite your face...

As a sometimes contributer to the Propsguild I support Virus' decision. Despite the fact that I offer my props, and other things for free that does not give anyone the right to sell my stuff. i state that in the readme. This man (boy whatever you pick a name) has ignored our requests to remove items from his site and still continues to sell everything. While it may seem stupid, or over dramatic remember the Propsguild is protecting not one not two but many artists copyrights. Therefore in my opinion it is the right action since this person decides to steal from us. How would your mebers feel if Metacreations(or whoever owns poser now) turned around and said that they were withdrawing support and removed all the poser related content from their site, stopped selling it, abandoned the fabled poser 5 etc, just because they caught someone using a pirated copy of poser 4. Would that still be classed as 'protecting copyrights' or would it seem a little more like a big company being melodramatic. You are talking about 1 companies work not over a dozen peoples work. Companies and individuals should not be compared because it's about the same as comparing apples and oranges. They just aren't the same or have the same circumstances. A big company will go after people with lawyers. I certainly don't have a lot of money to go after people (though I will when my rights have been violated) Besides that the final decision is up to Virus since he runs and maintains the site. Stormrage

I would have to agrre with Dave to some extent. I DO understand as to why you would do this and think that it is very honorable. But c'mon, how many members of this site use the pirated versions of 3D software (and I'm not trying to be accusing)? Somebody must! I mean think about it. Who the hell (besides me! AND at my family's expense) would pay $3,456 for 3d Studio Max (it does seem that my girlfriend said this to me as I whipped out the credit card on that great yet unnerving day). I'm not trying to justify piracy, but it happens! If you ask me, this guy is a @#$%*! SOB for stealing your stuff and once again, IT IS VERY ADMIRABLE that you would take such extreme steps to protect your core members. But what about the people who are just plain-GOOD-ol'-fashioned nice guys that download from you? Without them there would be no Props Guild. Hey, maybe it would be good because Poser 4 is just a distraction from my studies in 3D Studio MAX and Lightwave. HAHAHAHA Just kidding. But really... THINK ABOUT IT. You guys are all great, so helpfull it almost makes a Boy Scout look like one of the Evil Dead, and now look at us all! In the immortal words of some asshole elected to the Gov't... "can't we all just get along"? :o) > BubbaScuba (Just call me Trash Mouth)

True; comparing this to Metacreations (or Curious Labs, now) closing their doors over a stolen copy of Poser is a bit ludicrous; this would be more like BBay closing it's doors after having member stuff found sold elsewhere. Hmm. Maybe the BBay software detected this guy coming, and went kablooie in a bout of precognition?

I don't think that closing down sites is a good idea. It just punishes the innocent users. I don't even think that it will have any good effect at all. Sure, it is depressing that the thief makes money (does he really sell anything?) with somebody else's intellectual property. But is it worth all that effort?? I think sooner or later somebody would have done something like this. The internet is big and the laws are complicated here. But does this really have to shake our community? I don't think so.

Hmm... I know Prop's Guild was always the 'last recourse' for people to put up work when they couldn't get a site of their own. What will those people do now? If this truely does happen then I may open a site myself for people to put up work. Though the design of said site will take time, the actual site would go up as quick as I could get it there. Though I must say I think this is the wrong move to take. It's a capitulation of the entire issue and a destruction of an entire community over one bad apple.

Since this freak converts to max files, this must mean that he owns Max they are .max not .3ds. I wonder if he's using a pirated copy of max to do this. I wonder how Dicreet will take the fact that he's making money from their program. AR

I once had a person sell me a pirated copy of Max and reported it to the Discreet Piracy hotline. They never called me back and it took 9 months to clear it from my credit card. They are more concerned with large corporations than small ones. It's like they didn't care. I was really pissed! :o) BubbaScuba

In fact... their web addy is http://www.software-inc.com/ They do not show all their copies online but rather they rely on their mailing list. I just got one the other day with 3D Studio MAX 3.1, Softimage, Truespace 4 etc. Beware

pdblake is right - close the site, lose the visitors to the site, end up with nothing for your members and nothing to offer the greater 3D community, all because someone managed to find one person's site, out of most likely a number of such sites, that is illegally selling copyrighted work. Let's get real, people! There are and will continue to be scumbags and theives on the internet, not just this one jerk. But does that justify walling off the world? Who wins with that logic? Certainly not the innocent! Personally, I feel that if someone's actions punish me wrongly for something that I did not do or condone, than I don't need that someone in my life. I'll miss your site and I'm sorry to see you go, but I am no more understanding or tolerant of your re-actions than I am to the thief's actions. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's the way I feel. If I'm missing something here - i.e., an understanding of the function of the Propsguild and how isolating it from the rest of the 3d community serves the good of anyone or solves the specific problem at hand, I am open to reconsidering my opinion.

Near as I can tell; Propsguild has already gone offline. 11 hours early by my timezone.

The Props Guild isnt shutting down permantly, its clsoing its doors until this matter is resolved. And one way or another it will get resolved, and the doors will be open to the public again, until then only Guild members have access. We have always stood behind our members in everyway possible. This is not the first time this has happened, and it probably wont be the last. So instead of getting down on us, stand behind us as we try to protect our contributing members and make things right. We're not trying to penalize all of yuo, only trying to protect our own. Ken

I'm sorry to jump in, but there is something i don't understand. What this guy does is illegal, right ? How many people have been kicked out from their ISPs just because they were showing nudity ? ISPs are freaking out if you tell them about piracy and such things. So did the victims of this thief try to email his provider ? Make his account suspended, that would be a good start...

I couldn't get it earlier. As I said in my message, I'm displeased at both parties (although most angry with the thief). I just don't understand the Propsguild respone to the problem, but I remain open to hear why I may be wrong.

My wife just had her Oakly sunglasses stolen from our car a couple days ago, think I'll divorce her so it dosn't happren again. Punishing the memembers of the Props Guild and others dosn't seem fair, but if that's what they want it is their guild.

The site's down now due to technical difficulty, we havent closed yet. FT

I'm going to email Zygote. Try to see what's going on and where they are at.

Ahem.....May I point out that the only thing that is going to come back on this turd, in any meaningful way, is to remove from him the advantage that he has taken...On the one hand, the guy has not truly stolen anything (of material value) from the contributors to Propsguild (just wait, dont get your panties in a wad yet!): their stuff had already been given away for free. What he IS doing is taking something that someone SHOULD be able to get for FREE at the Propsguild and selling it for profit. The only way to undermine him (and future similar asswipes) is to make sure that everyone within ear or e-shot KNOWS that the material is FREE at Propsguild and that they would be FOOLS to give this person a dime!.....Propagate the news that if you have Poser, dont BUY from anyone til you have checked out what you can get for free through Renderosity, Renderotica, Willow's site and the associated links and that these are the best places to check with others before being ripped off by someone.....If you remove his market from him he will shrivel and die like the miserable little tick he is. Scarab <- (so there!)

I neither understand nor support your decision to close your site. It's an hysterical and irrational reaction that accomplishes nothing, and punishes all the people who might otherwise support you.

I think it's over reacting and hurting the honest people rather than the one who has started this mess. I have been working on my texture skills and soon was going to submit something to the Guild in hopes that it would be posted and I could contribute to the community who has given me so much. I think that a passwork entry system could be of use instead of a complete closure because of one jerk. But I will do my part and send an e-mail his way and hope, HOPE, you do not close the site!

This is pathetic. As far as I'm able to ascertain from examining the site, the Propsguild's main purpose is to enable the open distribution of 'free (for non commercial use?)' items which its 'members' wish to make available for public consumption. If that function is to be removed every time someone is caught abusing the facility, it can hardly be described as serving its members interests. I hate to break it to you guys, but there a quite a few scumbags out there, most of whom you'll never find out about. It strikes me that a better response would be to write to 'members' individually, asking if they want their stuff removed, rather than this melodramatic public posturing. Given that most people are aware of the risks involved in making their stuff available on the net, I doubt that many 'members' would seek such a solution. If this part of the Poser online scene is built on such shakey foundations, then maybe it's best that it says 'adios' and makes way for a site made of stronger stuff. One thing we can all be sure of. El Scumbagos across in Spain couldn't give the remotest rat's ass if Propsguild shuts up shop...

This is getting damn silly. Answer this question: what, exactly, will closing the site (and I see 3DCC has jumped on this absurd bandwagon) accomplish? The thief in question obviously doesn't give a damn what you guys think, so how does this action hurt him? Oh, I understand that if he'd stolen something of mine I'd be upset. I'd really want to smack him good. So it seems to me that pulling all my stuff offline that he might have taken, while possibly emotionally satisfying, is counterproductive. Why? Because, if I was giving the stuff away for free and he was selling it, by pulling my set off the only set that's available is the stuff he's selling. So if people want something I've made, the only place they're going to find it is through him. Where they pay for it. And he makes money. And I get nothing. Of course, if I leave my stuff available, well then people can get it from me for free. And he gets nothing because, realistically, why pay when you can get it for free, legally? I get proper credit and the satisfaction of seeing him make less money than he otherwise would have. And then I'd see about getting organized and trying to do something about it, probably in cooperation with Zygote and whoever else I suspected might be interested in learning about this little scam. It would be the same thing if I wrote a book that someone copied and stuck their name on. Protecting the copyright does not mean that I have to go around and yank my book of shelves. It means that I inform the proper authorities and do what I legally can to stop the illegal copying. And meanwhile I'm screaming as loud as I can about what this guy did and, hey folks, why pay $50 bucks for that rip-off when you can get the real deal from me for a lot cheaper? Of course that's just me. And if I had a model up at the Props Guild I'd be saying the same damn thing.

YES KEITH!!! THAT's WHAT I SAID IN THE FIRST STRING POSTED ABOUT THIS MATTER! GO FOR A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT (or whatever the hell they call it). Zygote has the money and they MUST be pretty pissed. After all... isn't their email getting bombarded as well? :o) > BubbaScuba

I just received an e-mail from the guy, I said that Poser could export in 3ds. He said that if I know so much about it, then export something and prove it to him. I can't export at the moment, I have to change screen resolution to 800X600 to export from Poser (a pain in the ass because I don't have a monitor that large) and this compaq won't let me do it. But then, it might be a way for him to get something out of me. He is getting an attitude though.

So send him a sphere! What can he do with that?

Better yet, someone send him the male genitals, because that's what he is... a peckerhead.

Let me tell you. Many of you probably remember Death_2_U_All=after many names, Cadash. He got pissed at Verdie for a reply she made to a thread and went after her pics, he thought she had Poser so it was my pics that got slimed. Then he came back with a new name and dowloaded two pics of Verdie's and one of mine and posted them as his own. We caught him quite quickly and Trav was nice enough to take them down and lock the guy out of the site. My pics, as well as yours, are all copyrighted to you and mine to me. This person infringed on my copyright, so I know how it feels folks. But I didn't let it stop me from posting. The same evening I got mad and created my vampire skull image called "Some Will Not Die". There was a dual meaning to that title that no one understood. Yes, it was about the vampire skull, but it was also in reaction to this guy. I wasn't going to let him run me off. Don't let one ass hole run you off and spoil it all for the rest of us. As Allie says, only a legal action, probably backed by Zygote will be the way to handle him. In the meantime, there are probably others doing the same thing that we do not know about. Should this stop us as a community from sharing our works with one another and giving help to one another. I do not believe that I would have taken the plunge into Poser if there had not been the support through objects and textures, and the friendly help that is available through this community. If it had not been here, I probably wouldn't have bought the program.

Hey Dreamspinner.... did you send him some sort of 3ds object? I still think the gennies would have kicked ass! HAHAHA :o)> BubbaScuba

Nope, I said that I can't export at this time. Poser was made to work with a screen of 800X600 and I have a smaller screen, when I was on my Toshiba running Win95, I could change screen rez and then export from Poser so I could run the obj through UVmapper. But Win98 won't let me change screen rez. My screen goes all squirrelly. Anyone know a way around this?

As Dreamspinner mentioned, I'm sure that others have done this in the past, but no one has caught them yet. It probably happens all the time. That doesn't make it right by any means. It's just hideous that anyone would do this. There are people with absolutely no morals. We'll never get rid of them, so shutting down sites won't stop them. If they don't have the Poser figures and props to rip off, they'll move on to someone else to steal from. That's their nature. Melanie

Ok, My 2 cents: There will always be someone out there trying to get something for nothing and try to ileagally make a profit. Even if this A-Hole stops, there's someone waiting in the wings to take their place. Our best defense is awarness. We caught this guy (hopfully in time) through someone happening onto the site. I know we all cruise thousands of sites, and make it hard for people like this to get away with it. But I strongly agree that closing down a site because of this seems very counter productive. The've already stolen what they wanted and were caught. If we give into terrorism or the thought of terrorism we might as well just take all the sites down.Password protecting/members only downloads I still think is a good solution. Becoming a member you must agree to the terms and conditions. Or even going a little further and doing it similar to e-commerce site, with $0.00 for the price but giving a record of who downloaded what. Just a thought. James

I'll export it if you want to send it. Just leave an email! HAHAHAHAHA

Forget about legal action. Except for the risk of establishing legal precedence (which might weaken their defense against any future claims that they have permitted their work to fall into the public domain) this one guy's actions are not worth enough money to ANYONE to pursue it. Not to Zygote, Not to Curious Labs. Besides, this guy is probably "judgement proof" i.e. broke. So the threat of legal action against him is both expensive and ineffective -- what's he got to lose? Here though, are two steps which HAVE been previously successful in dealing with Trolls, that should be even more effective with Pirates because of the stronger basis in statutory law. !!CAUTION and LEGAL DISCLAIMER!!: This stuff could, in itself, be potentially construed as an illegal attack on commerce and therefore result in serious consequences. I am therefore not suggesting that anyone actually do this. I am merely reporting events that I have seen used successfully in similar circumstances with the thought that some legal variant might be applied here . Don't try this at home.-Consult a lawyer,-Look before you leap - Wait 30 minutes before entering the water... and JDK has no knowledge of, or responsibility for the contents of this thread. Ok, here's what worked with problems at another site when the members teamed up: 1. Send him an email with a LARGE attachment every couple of days. - He cannot filter an address until after he receives it. - There are thousands of us, so if just a couple of dozen get through every day, it will clog his box for months before he could filter everyone. - If his box is full he cannot get any orders - he can't sell the stolen works. 2. More importantly, contact his ISP --DO NOT MAIL BOMB THEM! -- Politely, but firmly express your opinion, and let them know you will be contacting their other hosted clients to inform them of their ISP's policy on copyright infringement. -- Now we're talking about someone actually losing something! -- DO NOT CONTACT THEIR CLIENTS ON YOUR OWN. If they fail to respond, a standard letter could be drafted that would present the facts to their customers, but be worded in such a way as to avoid libel and other potential legal liabilities. Unless the weasel is their biggest moneymaker, most ISPs will quickly see the financial, if not the PR wisdom in dumping his site. Also, do not be surprised if Zygote and Curious Labs remain completely silent on this issue. If they choose NOT to legally fight it, they must then maintain the legal position that they are totally unaware of these events. To do otherwise, to admit that they were aware of the offense and knowingly chose to do nothing, is one of the criteria used by (US) courts to determine if a work should ultimately be deemed to have fallen into the public domain. So, they gotta fight -- or pretend they don't know. Don't expect any play-by-play here. And, to this end, perhaps we should stop posting things here that say, "I have contacted Zygote". They may have chosen a wait&see policy until they see what effect our tirades will have without them. All that said, the following is offered with the utmost respect and appreciation (really) for the work that Virus, Fasttraxx, and the rest of you have done in building the PG site into the cornerstone of our community that it has become. I can understand your need to do something dramatic in the face of these outrageous circumstances, but surely you realize that neither he, nor his ISP, gives a hoot whether Props Guild is open or not. You are "locking the barn after the horses are gone". To the contrary, he'll probably get a thrill out of the formidable "power" you have bestowed upon him. While I know you weren't asking for an opinion poll, I still suggest that this may be a counterproductive tactic arising from a knee-jerk strategy. However - though you might think them nutz - you still gotta salute the kamikaze pilots.

I still say, advertise and promote what we got...the best source of FREE FOR THE TAKING meshes, textures, morphs and jerk like him won't make a dime....and that will stop them. Criminals dont want there to be easy access to booze, drugs, sex, etc...because if there were, crime wouldnt pay! Closing the Guild (as has been pointed out) plays right into his hand! Scarab <- (not that I would know all that much about booze, drugs, and....well on second thought....)

Let me get this straight your closing down to what jump on the "We wanna close for support band wagon"? Don't get me wrong I am not going off on you I don't understand the logic! Its like this I am in the military and my country is invaded. Do I turn around and waste my own countrymen because they reported the invasion? This is the same logic. You resolve has to be stronger than this. You are only building animosity among everyone else in an attempt to direct our rage at the person at fault. WHICH WE HAVE! This is all too common!

If one madman jumps off the roof, we had better tear down all the houses! If one ass wrecks a stolen car, we'd better close all the roads. The above makes as much sense as closing some of the best resources I have EVER seen in ANY user community. It is sad there has been such a knee-jerk reaction to a jerk. Every community has theft problems. Have we been so blind until now to see it is there? Now someone realizes something has been pilfered, and it's time to kill the geese that layed the golden eggs. A sad, dark day for this once mighty kingdom! <(-_-)>

I and the rest of the Guild do honestly appreciate everyone's input whether positive or negative on this matter, I just got home from work, and I hope the InnerCircle staff can decide on another solution for now. Thanks FastTraxx

Scarab has a point. Most of us like the word FREE. If there are enough free downloads available, with good quality offerings, the places like that, who charge for their stuff, won't have a leg to stand on. If I see the exact item I'm looking for on his site and on a free site, I'm going to the free site. I won't pay for his if can get it for free somewhere else. Let's flood the web with free downloads and he or anyone else planning to do the same thing, have too much competition to deal with. Melanie