I just got a newsletter from CL announcing the SR2 release and the removal of the copywrite protection scheme. They also gave a status report on the Mac version of P5, and a version of Pro-Pack for P5. There's some offers on bundled software, and announcing a partnership with American Express and FedEx. Whoopee. Most of this is old news. I'm happy for the Mac users that development continues on their version. I'm hoping that means at least the Mac staff didn't get cut at CL. Sorry guys, no release date. Since no details are given about ProPack for P5, I'm assuming it's plug-ins with no other added value. No release date for that either. Nothing on the remaining bugs or promised content files. No mention about the restructuring, and none on the website. In fact, I wanted to see exactly what was in ProPack for P4, but the only reference I could find was to a ProPack and P4 bundle with no specific details. I guess what bothers me is getting this letter so long after the SR2 release, and the day after the layoffs there. What goes on? If I were a P5 user who didn't come to the 'sity, I'd have just found out about the release even though it's been out for weeks. And somehow a chatty newsletter after their announcement here about ongoing development, when we know they've cut a number of key people including development staff just seems wrong. Do the people left at CL have their heads up their... well, something? This isn't the way to build confidence in the product. No newsletter would have been better than this.

yeah, I wondered about that newsletter too. I wondered if they were just trying to find something positive to say. Of course not everyone is on the forums who bought Poser 5 so this might be news to those folk. The timing seemed ill advised.

I thought it was very poor taste to send out that news letter.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=1051686

CL posted this as I was writing my post. I'm glad Larry and Kupa are still getting paid for their consulting, and it's nice to know that CL intends to focus on Poser, and that they're financially stable. I'm even more happy about an SR3 release. But this doesn't jive with layoffs of developement and testing staff, and the fact that NO ONE from CL is responding in the beta test forum. Partnerships were mentioned again, but because of confidentiality they can't mention them. An international team is on site and will continue to remain on site. I guess this means EGISys is taking direct control. This is too wierd, and not the way to inspire confidence. Someone at CL needs to take some classes in Public relations, and quickly.

This notice reminds me of a couple of things.... In more recent history: any time you see a notice on a website that says "Have patience, we're restructuring, and will be back with a grand and glorious new site very soon", you can bet the farm that the website is solidly dead and gone. Going back a few decades, something like this always happened in the automobile industry just before a brand died. In 1960, Chrysler reassured its dealers and customers that it was fully committed to continuing the DeSoto, which then died early in 1961 after a brief, half-hearted effort at production. Same with the Edsel in 1959, Packard in 1956, Willys in 1955, and so on. This is eerily familiar.

...and it's uninspiring that they use the moniker "The Curious Labs Team." As if someone's afraid to step forward and assume responsibility and leadership.

Poser has gone through some winters before. The expected elation on the release of P5 probably soured some bean counter(s) and will likely repeat the blunders of MetaCrap on the release of P4. We will overcome. The Force is with us. Onward and Upward. V for Victory(ia). When the going gets tough, the tough get going. If at first you don't suceed, f*(kit,

No matter where you go, there you are.... Scarab

Hi All, some clarifications: 1) We're posting under Curious_Labs as these posts are on behalf of the whole team here. There is a lot that goes into a product release: engineering, QA, UI design, product design, documentation, content, service, just to name a few. We want to better represent the effort that everybody puts in, hence "The Curious Labs Team" 2) Curious Labs and Poser is under direct control of Marc Keohane. Marc is primarily based at Curious Labs headquarters in Santa Cruz. Marc worked at Apple and MetaCreations. He was also the Director of Products for Curious Labs, working primarily with Larry and Steve, and is now Director of Curious Labs. 3) We're trying to roll as many of the staff that were laid off as possible into the partnerships. These partnerships will strengthen all of the development efforts on the Poser products, including engineering and quality efforts. 4) Not all Poser customers are on Renderosity, so we sent out the newsletter to try and ensure we reached everyone. 5) We've received many comments, and good advice, through both EMail and Renderosity on how we communicate with customers. The newsletter is just one part of a new process to improve our customer communications. As the next step we'll be bringing live a new web page, which will focus 100% on Curious Labs news and product updates. More on this, and other topics will follow - on a regular basis! The Curious Labs Team

So....has everyone picked themselves off the floor! What was that about the "webpage"?? :)

We're MIB, look into the little flashy thingy, everythings gunna be just fine pressed button

Sometimes it may be better not to say anything. CL, thanks for the response, but to be honest, it still doesn't make much sense to me. I'm glad you're trying to bring back as many as you can as partners (I suppose this means consultants or contractors), and I'm glad you're making an attempt to notify your complete customer base base of the new update. It's also nice to have a name associated with the company (congradulations Marc). It's iteresting to know that the Team speaks as one, although here at the 'sity we like a name and a persoality, not a corporate identity. Again, while I appreciate the prompt response, your posts seem like public service announcements in tone. However, the time to let everyone who isn't an the 'sity about the update was the day the release was made final, not so many weeks later. You're timing in the newsletter is almost offensive after announcing layoffs of key staff the day before. On one hand we get a goodbye letter from Kupa and a restructuring notice from you all, on the other we get chatty email and promises. You lay off development staff and then bring them back as consultants? I've been in consulting a LONG time, and it just doesn't make any sense. Consultants always cost more than full time employees. Why even post the restructuring here? It should be an internal matter, especially if there is so little real personel change. While we like Kupa, a simple change from his old position to consultant wouldn't have been as disconcerting if phrased your announcement differently, and made it plain in the original announcement that many of the staff would be converting from saleried to consulting personel. You've mentioned an SR3, but while the SR2 beta forum here is still up, you post nothing there anymore, and it seems like it's a dead issue. The 'sity isn't the whole Poser customer base, I'd be surprised if we were more than 10%, but we are the ones that provide feedback to you. Many of us helped in the beta forum, and while it's nice you removed the copyright protection to increase stability, and have addressed many of the original issues, P5 issues remain. Instead of letting us in on your corporate laundry, how about informing us of the details of the SR3 release? Is there a quarter planned for the Mac release? What will be in the P5 version of Poser Pro Pack? Will we ever get the new figures? Will any other sites be added to Content Paradise? I'm sorry, your posts just leave me even more confused. I probably need sleep.

Confused? I feel like the Borg just landed and my Gut is turning. Maybe I just need to unplug the cable modem for a week and read my Lightwave book and poke my head back later. pdxjims I have the same questions and feelings. You are not alone.

Severance packages go under many different names. For many purposes. Emily

Marc's actually on the ball with this one. And that should say alot coming from one of the people he laid off.

I am amazed that none of these folks are in jail yet. Talk about out and out hooey. Keep on rolling the dice CL. It is highly entertaining.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1044738

pdxjims, Why are you confused? Why are the rest of you confused??? I posted the fact that I'd received the newsletter on the 10th (almost a week ago). I posted THREE separate messages here, each highlighting a point of discussion, so that the ProPack-type plug-ins, video demos, and Mac version updates could be discussed separately. I used capital letters and exclamation marks (which I don't do very often). People did discuss and read those messages, so they weren't lost. This is the link to one of the posts: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1044738 If you wanted the entire newsletter, you could have subscribed to it, or asked me to post the whole thing... but I'd consider 3 Forum posts as adaquate notification to the community at large that there was a newsletter with news. I do not know why they are sending it out again (I got it twice before, because I'm on their LabReport as well as their General mailing list, but I didn't get it this time), However, I do suspect that that they *are* trying to reach a wider audience, not just the people who cared enough to keep current. Sometimes things have already been put into motion, too... like lists into a mailing system. As for wanting a name and a face rather than a corporate entity... after the hatred and insults and vitriol that some members of this Forum and of PoserPros poured on those folks who were here in person, I'd caution anybody at CuriousLabs about identifying themselves as individuals or making themselves available in the forums to help and counsel us. I'd rather defend a keep from foaming-mouthed werewolves than be the person who answers the phone when you guys are looking for someone to rip apart. And it isn't just the venting. So many of you think you have the right to stipulate features, set prices, listen in on phone conversations and take part in intercorporate negotiations... when your only motivation is short-sighted greed: you want it now and you don't want to pay for it, and it had damn-well better be tailored to your own personal specification and hand-delivered. I have friends at DAZ, too. You put them through Hell just 6 months ago. I'm sure that they are shuddering in their boots at the thought of what will happen when they release their application. Vicky 3 is out for a month, and has 3 service pack releases... yet there are still people who can't get her to load and who are tearing out their hair in frustration. That Studio will be their first software product, there will be frustrated users... and those users won't be tearing out their hair, they will be tearing at the doors... again. The people who are known here by name are going to be the ones suffering the abuse. I've been in software development for 15 years. It is a rare privilege for customers to know the makers of these products personally. It saddens me, but the decision by CuriousLabs, or any other entity, to use a corporate voice is a wise one. Wisdom consists of those lessons learned from experience, and their experience here has opened eyes. There are lurkers on these boards from other companies. Carolly

Amen. I know there's a lot of emotion flying right now. But I'm going to sit back and wait a few months. Nothing will be solved nor made apparent overnight.

Let's give Marc a chance. Change is not easy to implement and replacing people like Larry and Steve is like walking into a role that was recently played by a great actor. Let him find his bearings and make it his administrations before fetching the cross and nails. Live and let live, for a while.

Carolly, Sorry, didn't notice your earlier post. I try to read them all, but everyone misses a few. I am subscribed to the newsletter, and I didn't get it on the 10th. 6 months ago I didn't put anyone through hell, Daz or CL. Frankly, I don't know what you're talking about there. I try to be very straightforward and courtious in all my posts. I do complain when I feel cheated, but thats part of being human. I don't insist on writing specifications. I do expect a company to make good on an agreement. I've been in software development for 24 years. It is a real privilage for customers to know members of a manufacturing team on a more personal level. It's also a privalage for a company to have such a loyal and intense base of customers. We beta tested our asses off for them. And there is still no post by them in the Beta forum. Frankly, I'm tired of all of this too. I'm tired of not getting what was promised. I'm tired of a corporation making conflicting statements in three different ways in less than 2 days. CL made 3 posts here in 3 days. The first announced layoffs of developemnt staff and restructuring, the second was a bright and chipper and corporate fluff, the third was a birght and chipper "clarification". I posted because I am confused about why they'd do this, and the timing of this and the newsletter. As for giving Marc a chance. I wish him all the luck in the world. He's got some big shoes to fill. And I'm more than willing to give him and CL a chance. Another chance. Another chance. We don't really have any choice do we? They've got our money, and they don't give refunds. Why am I angry? Because I think CL has reached the point where they're trying to play us. I wasn't happy with P5's bugs and missing features, but at least Kupa has always been straight up with us. These last two posts here by them and the newsletter are just dribble.

Oh, so EVERYONE got that newsletter late ? I thought it had taken too much time crossing the Atlanctic. As for what CL will become : que sera sera... Compiler

Hrm they posted over on other forums as well(poser pros etc) There was a message over at PP stating that they would be sending another newsletter out about all the changes.

Got my mail today. (Belgium-Europe) Don't understand this policy. 2.1 is up and running for about a month now. Its about the same as telling your husband you are prengant after the child has been born already. I've posted in the past about open management and customer relations, and client friendly firms. 1. We pay you. We are your reason of existence. 2. All we want is a working product. 3. We do part of the testing, at your own demand, and give the feedback. 4. We don't want money. 5. We want a working soft. 6. And if this is not immediately possible? Well, we can live with that one. But let us know. Keep us informed. Dont let us in the dark. You must know by experience by now that this leads to speculations, and almost kost you your heads completely. Do not, I repeat, do not develop NEW items or plug -ins. Get the basic rooms to work first. Pose room is OK. Face room is a toy. More control points, better texture output. Work on the head of the loaded figure. If not by point control, then by magnet control. If I load Posette means that I want to work on Posettes head and not on Judys. (the same for the Vic's by the way.) A faceroom that puts magnets on and around a mesh would be a lot better in the end. Or, and this would be appreciated; dump and replace Judy. I kow no-one that uses her anymore. And , yes keep the mesh simple. Please. Not amll of us are living in the USA and working on super turbo PC's. Material room is exelent for profs, too complicated for beginners. Hair room , can be used with a lot of preactice. Results are good, no change needeed. Setup room : the interaction between the autogouping tool and the bone structure has to be improved. (can write a complete report on this one alone) Sorry, mail too late . You stepped on some toes. But glad that CL continues. Best of luck, Tony

As far as knowing the team members/developers...one of the reasons Poser has such a great following is because of the relationship kupa, :arry, and some of the others had with us...a direct relationship...Bryce was the same way, as were many of the kpt/fractal/meta products...did not Kai Krouse converse personally. I'm a gamer as well. Most of the products that do the best and have a cult following have direct contact with the development team...I think this is proven over and over. If you now look at Bryce since it was acquired by Corel...that personal touch is no longer there... Look at Doc Mojo with Mojoworld...he's right up front and friendly...do you think a following is being built..you bet. As far as the future of Poser and CL, we can only wait and see. My gut tells me the future of Poser is short...I hope I'm wrong. I really believe for CL and Poser to be successful going forward, they need to COMMUNICATE with their current user base, and especially with the folks that have used it for a long time, the 3rd party developers, and the vocal ones, such as are here and Poser Pros. This means more personal, direct communication. Answer the damn emails. Be ACTIVE in the forums....Answer customer concerns....Take the heat if its deserved. LISTEN, RESPOND, REACT.... If this isn't done, I think the future for CL and Poser will be bleak...they need to turn around the attitude that a lot of us have...their most dedicated supporters.

I suspect right now CL has its hands full trying to reorganize the workload of a diminished staff. It may be unreasonable of us to expect them to be hanging out in a dozen forums listening to us grump away. While many of you may have given a lot of time and energy to helping the company along the way, none of you has the investment of time and money that they have. I can understand that everyone's worried about the future of Poser and I've had my share of fun poking at them as well, but it may be time to put this thread to bed and get back to creating....and let CL do the same. Time will tell their future. If we really want them to succeed, then we should continue to support them by using their product and encouraging others to do the same.

Well I move that Ron Knights be appointed CEO of Curious Labs. Then get Legume to write the manual.