oops - "postbilly" should have read, "post, billy". Dang space bar...

Well, I can't model worth a darn, but I have plenty of visual "stories" in my mind that I want to create. If someone has created a costume that works in an image I'm working on, then why shouldn't I use it? I certainly couldn't create any of the beautiful clothing items that are here in free stuff or in the MarketPlace or at DAZ. I just don't know how and I'm not really interested in learning it at this time. I think it's a community of people who work together. And placing objects into an image isn't necessarily simple, just because the parts are ready-made for us. Composition is a talent in itself. Point of view, camera angles, etc., deeply impact the final result of the image. Whether the objects were made by someone else is irrelevant, in my opinion. Even if someone made every item in the picture they're working on, it doesn't mean he/she has the "eye" to create a meaningful scene with those things. Just my slant on it. Melanie

? I certainly couldn't create any of the beautiful clothing items that are here in free stuff or in the MarketPlace or at DAZ. but, those of us who can create them should not be criticised, for enjoying our works of creation, either. perhaps, creation, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. i love making my own little stuff. and posing, lighting, and, rendering it. if i get bored with a bunch of "same old" new on the market this week, vickis...we, so what. that's just me. and, yes, i do get tired of the same old vicki's with the same old steffz textures, in the same old temples, with same old lighting. hey folks...you left out one of the most crucial elements of art: CREATIVITY.

Even worse, Huolong, Renaissance masters also used to have lots of apprentices who did most of the work. They'd mix the paint, prep the canvas/fresco/whatever, and, under the scrutinizing eye of the "master", paint the master's sketches. At this stage in one's career, the master was a "producer" or "director" of his creations, through his apprentices, and taking all of the credit. This isn't very analogous to what's being done in todays CG, but it shows the misconceptions that the true arteest struggled his way through every monumental masterpiece, weaving canvas, making paintbrushes, paints, and mediums, sketching and painting from some ethereal imagination only. No way! They relied on skilled craftsman, apprentices, and models more than we. And if you think that they didn't beg, borrow, and steal from one another - look again... And, silver, I like your analogy of "hiring people" and "purchasing models/textures/etc".

Old. Decrepit. Wearisome. Moldy. Billy-boy, why don't you mind your own business of being an artist, instead of complaining about what others do or don't do with their own businesses of making art? How often does this same stupid unanswerable RANT come up? Weekly????? It isn't addressed as a question deserving of an answer because there is no answer which will satisfy some jerk who only wants to cheapen and deny the creations of others. This is only a rant. Folks, in lieu of trying to answer these constant pseudo-queries, mostly by justifying one's own efforts, why not call these little-minded pot-stirrers out for what they are: rants. If we all do that, and ignore the haranguers, then serious questions and concerns about how to make better art will have a better chance of being seen and addressed. Carolly the Unamused

Carolly, you're probably right but I think what you suggest goes against human nature.

Well, this thread shows up rather regularly...it isn't started by the same person but it usually attracts the same points of view. Fact is we convince no one. What I really don't understand is why there is any conflict. Do the graphics that please you. Ignore the Hot 20 and all that nonsense. Turn off the comments if praise and/or criticism offends you. Is that so hard?

Folks, in lieu of trying to answer these constant pseudo-queries, mostly by justifying one's own efforts, why not call these little-minded pot-stirrers out for what they are: rants and, what is so horribly wrong with "ranting"? sometimes, we all need to do that. and, hey, now....an "artist" site of 100,000, in cyberspace, no less, is a good place to rant, and be ranted at in return. very safe.

If I took the time to model/texture every object in some of my renders/anims, I would never get to the rendering or final composition, I'd still be modelling/texturing only. Imagine modelling(from scratch), texturing(from scratch), laying out scene, lighting scene, animating scene, editing video, editing effects, editing sound, & compositing video. I mean, don't get me wrong. I enjoy modelling & texturing, but damn, I gotta draw the line somewhere...I'm not god...and for those of you that are god, here, have a cookie. Evo ;p

Chocolate chip?

Looking at your gallery you stated that you used some models from "the net." So, I don't see your point. "My first Bryce post, and one of my very first 3D pics, so please be kind. :) Ship/lighthouse from net, the rest me. Please make any comments that might help me improve. Thanks. "

Quote: BillyM67 "What creative fulfillment (sp) is achieved by using someone elses figure, hair, light, texture, background model(s) and pose, and then putting your name on it? Honestly, what is so exciting about this? What artistic talent is being expressed with this? Isn't this basically the same thing as taking a magazine, cutting out a model, cutting out clothing from different pages and then pasting it all on a photograph someone else took? Maybe I am wrong, but it would seem to me more people here should spend more time creating there own textures and models, and stop spending there money having someone else do the work for them. I that most of the actual fun of creating from scratch is being missed." Hmmm....... I just looked at an image in your gallery called "Morning Chill". Let's see....... You DIDN'T create the lighthouse, You DIDN'T create the ship, You DIDN'T create the trees, You DIDN'T create the ground texture, You DIDN'T create the water texture....... Though you claim to have created the last 3. You don't find this at all hypocritical? To paraphrase your own words and apply them to YOUR image, What creative fulfillment is achieved by using someone elses lighthouse, ship, trees, water texture and ground texture and then putting your name on it? What artistic talent is being expressed with this? Isn't this basically the same thing as taking a magazine, cutting out a model, cutting out clothing from different pages and then pasting it all on a photograph someone else took? Maybe I am wrong, but it would seem to me you should spend more time creating your own textures and models, and stop downloading things, using presets and having someone else do the work for you. I think you are missing most of the fun of creating from scratch. I think you get my point. :) Sorry BillyM67, I have to agree with everyone else.

...and no Poser render in the Poser gallery.

Without starting a flamewar, I'd like to know why jerks come into the Poser forum and start accusing Poser artists of being uncreative because the tools they choose allow them to produce without having to delve into the intricacies of building meshes. I think people like this are just looking for attention and trying to assuage their own feelings of inadequacy by eliciting defencive responses so that they can repeat their own self-righteousness mantras somewhere besides the privacy of their own loo. Maybe I am wrong, but it would seem to me more people here should spend more time creating and less time putting the Poser artists to task for not making their own meshes. After all, that's my job. I hope no one takes offence to what I'm saying, of course. For the record, on credits: when I paint I use both Windsor & Newton brushes and oils, and I buy my thinner in half gallon jugs from Target. I use whatever illustration board is inexpensive and not battered, and sometimes I use masonite of any particular brand. I use Windsor & Newton Liquin as my medium. I have no problem with telling people this and I am very happy with crediting W&N for their wonderful tools and feel that my oil paintings would not be as good without them. I also encourage oil painters to purchase their thinner from houseware stores and home improvement places for $1.50/pint because the more that do, the less money the art supply companies (W&N included, but less so than Grumbacher, Liquitex, etc) will make by price-gouging for the same product in an 'art' labelled bottle for $2/oz.

Ever hear of PHOTOGRAPHY, or Motion picture film? Even if you ARE a geneticist, you still didn't grow the person your taking pictures of. (Or else we would have had a major media blitz about it already.) WHY is it any different to take a pircute of stuff you like in a virtual world than it is to take a picture in the real one. You must not consider PHOTOGRAPHY an art form.

That's the point that I find amusing about his "rant." Why should I or anyone reinvent a tire model when there exists one that fits the need? Should I really model a '69 Corvette from scratch (and waste 3 or 6 months) when there is a perfectly adequate one that someone has painstakingly modeled and made available for just this purpose? If I can't find a model, I'll make one. If a model is needed for commercial use and the only ones available are not for commercial use, I'll make one. If, for some reason, I want to do it myself for self-gratification or growth experience, I'll make one. Otherwise, I'll use one already available. Someone mentioned "Creativity" and hit the hammer on the nail. Artistic Creativity doesn't imply "creating from the bottom up or from nothing", it implies "creating from what's available to communicate your message."

Notice that that definition encompasses photography very well. What's available is the photographer with his/her equipment at the right time and place, whether it's serendipitous, by assignment, or by construction. The creativity comes when the photographer realizes the uniqueness of the moment, one that may (and probably will) not ever occur again, and uses the tools (both hardware and mind) to capture the moment well - create the lasting image. Maybe we need to force an introductory course in Artistic Creativity before using 3D software to squelch these yahoos... ;)

When you make a lot of noise am I to believe that you are working harder, creating more better art or thinking harder? Not necessarily. After a while it's all just noise. see post # 57. by hauksdottir! These type of conversations should be sent to another forum (hopefully on another site) whether or not they mention poser as they are not Poser questions. The "what is art" topic belongs in the OT or Art Theory Forums.

ok I think that we're done here. Feel free to continue this topic elsewhere, as has been suggested. Lyrra (moderator)

I think that some of you are exaggerating his opinion.
As he says, it is a simple question.
I donft understand why you gays bark at him so hard.

Lyrra, Sorry, I did not see your comment,

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=TheWingedOne

Just to add my two cents to this topic... I don't have a problem with using stuff for Poser that has been made by others would it be freestuff or commercial. I'm not good with modelling. And I do my pictures just for fun. And I already spend hundreds of bucks for Poser. The only things I don't buy are Poses. I really enjoy making the whole compositing myself, but I don't have the time to do things myself, since my spare time is quite limited. And imho it doesn't matter what you did to get an image done. It's only the result that counts! And I don't think an image shows a lack of creativity if someone uses only models etc. made by others. Creativity is what you make out of it.... Just my two cents, Phil

Composition is the key ingredient of originality. You can take stock objects, textures, etc., but how you put them together and frame them in the picture is what makes the picture, and what makes it yours, and what makes it art (if it is).

You post obvious flame bait, and then get upset cause you get flamed? If really want an answer do a forum search on "Art" or "What is Art?" The dead horse has beaten so much your just pounding the ground where the horse fell. MOD'S!!! Please step in and Lock this topic. Thank you!

Billy, You don't seem to notice that your reference to "cut and paste" art was entirely insulting to a great number of people in this very forum. Perhaps you didn't intend to troll for flames, but that is the result of crtisizing Poser users. Art is an expression. It doesn't matter WHAT you use to create that expression. Truth be told, I have seen some STUNNING posters that in fact were made from magazine "cut and paste" and the resulting clips were used as a mosaic. Was this art? You bet your unwadded undies it was.

Yes Please. And you might wanna talk to a couple a people about their explicatives

I'd consider this a "troll message." Hasn't this very topic been covered "a million times," already? So why do we continue to respond, and get caught up in all the conflict?

Billy Billy Billy : You should have just left it alone. Now you come back with a real sharp stick and go right for the eyes. Tsk Tsk .

All this about making it all yourself is bullshit. If we did then there would be no Daz and no mp!!! I had this same subject in Art school-Commerical art verses Fine Art. The composing the picture is the big thing is computer arts. Lighting and you could blow the whole thing just by using things that didn't go well together. Enough said on this subject. Was Beatrix Potter a less of an artist than Degas? NO!

Lyrra made it clear enough that this thread was finished. Kevin (kbennett) Moderator.