I noticed a banner with only the word "Censored". Is that an early April Fool's joke? I'm not going to click on it, not going to buy whatever is on the other end. If other people are also ignoring it, doesn't that mean it's wasted advertising space that could be making some real money instead?

There are a few merchants running these ads in protest of the no-nudity in banner ads. Clint

Its not an early April fools joke. Some merchants felt like they are being censored because of a banner/nudity debate. Some of the banner ads affected only showed a hint of nudity in a tasteful way. Renderosity decided that nudity wasnt acceptible in the ads after several members complained about some of the ads. The ads do have to go through an approval process. The merchants are upset because they were given no notice that their approved ad nolonger met site requirements. The ads are only good for 30 days before they get rotated out of the system.

If you have a nudity flasg on it doesn't affect the banners, some people do like nudity, so why should they have to look at it? Why not put a nudity flag on the banner ads? Seems like a reasonable request.

That's what we said. And it apparantly is not wasted space, my "Censored" ad is getting twice as many clicks per viewing as my regular banner ad ("Simple SAVAGE").

"And it apparantly is not wasted space, my "Censored" ad is getting twice as many clicks per viewing as my regular banner ad ("Simple SAVAGE"). " That shouldn't be any surprise, images and banners alike that leave too much to the imagination always get more hits just to find out what it is. :) Like mateo, I didn't have a clue what that "Censored" ad was for until now. I think Renderosity could have given the merchants 10 days or so to revise their banners before removing them, but I also agree that some of the banners in question were ludicrous and should have been pulled long ago. It's too bad that some vendors (yes, even the ones who had their ads pulled unfairly) can't just deal with this situation calmly, edit or remake their banners, and get back to business instead of pulling their stuff in protest. They'll just hurt themselves in the end...other forums might not have the same problems that Renderosity has, but they're kidding themselves if they think they'll have more potential customers anywhere else. Anyway, just my opinions as always. Thanks, take care. SnowS

The problem is, some of the ads actually showed no nudity at all, but merely suggested it. THAT is what incensed the merchants.

Here we go again. Yes, nudity is evil - is that what you are trying to say? Sorry, but I am always amused by the way americans or better to say: some members treat nudity. I did not see ONE single banner ad or ONE single image in the Galleries I would hide for my nine year old daughter. Maybe it's just because I live on the other side of the pond and over here nudity is natural and nothing bad. We see it on the beaches, in the parks, in the swimbath even on TV ads - nude women under the shower, or nude man even nude woman nursing nude babies and not somewhere in the night - no, this ads are running all through the day. Oh wow,. aren't we Europeans just bad?

LMAO

Really, you are just too funny!

"Provacative Poses" banner...Hmmmm..I wonder if that was put up there as a 'protest' image as well? if not, then the PTB hasnt seen it yet ~J

Forget it Puntomaus, you can't argue this subject or with this crowd, invariably the end excuse will be that it was the PTB's decision to make the change and how to make the change. And it is true, there was a rule on nudity in banners, the PTB was lax in enforcing it until a few people, now, I use the word "few" carefuly because that what it seems, a "few" people complained. Now, the result wasn't just that the nudity in banners rule was enforced (as stated in this thread by an admin), the result is also that the banner ads are being censured for more than just nudity, now they are being censured for being too tacky, provocative, arousing and suggestive or whatever might be deamed to distasteful for the "few". Mind you, this will be up to somebody other than the merchant to decide and that is why some merchants are upset. Now, as I stated in a few other threads, this sets a bad precident because it will only be a matter of time before a few people complain about nudity being on the site period, and it will then be removed from the site. Now don't laugh or scoff at this, it's already a pattern in motion. Some of the "few" who complained about the banner nudity/provocativeness/suggestiveness will say they are not against nudity in the gallery and other places on the site and they they even have some nudity in their gallery here, but believe me, I 'KNOW' people who are against even that much and now that this concession has been made/enforced, it will add fuel to the fire of those who are totally opposed to nudity... sooner or later.

honestly i think everyone should just move on ......and stop making a big stink about it.....merchants are only hurting themselfs ..... i noticed some of the banners out that look a hell of alot better now (in a design point of view) ....

I agree Nnuu. {tries to zip her lips} ;) ~Jani :)

in regards to davo.....not to start a flame with you but just generally speaking in a nice way :-) maybe members here can start trying to increase there skills by putting clothes on a figure instead of quickly making a nude pose pressing a button to render and quickly upload it to renderosity......you can still make a sexy pic with clothes on ...and we are in a time now where its possible to do that with ease and make it look very realistic especially with vicky 3 and the upcomin daz studio ....... lets face it nudes are sooo boring on this site ...how bout some effort .....or go back to another nude vicky in a temple

yeah, I thought about that, but the nudie stuff was working better sales wise for myself and some people. Actually my sales have increased by pulling out of here and I'll be using the showcase forum to it's full advantage from here on out. It will be interesting, though, to see what the next change or rule will be here that gets so hotly debated, it always starts this way, which is what I was afraid of all along, nudity in banners may seem an insignificant and unimportant step, but it's just a beginning. We'll see.

davo i dont get how your sales can increase by pullin out of here.....maybe at first....but i would think the more places you have to sell the more you will make but i dont have the experience in that topic so i will take take your word :-) ...thanks for not taking what i said so serious .....its very easy to read words and not really see the emotion behind it and then blow it out of proportion like some members on this site.....including myself

ahh.. I own my own websites where I sell stuff on my own, I have my own merchant account etc. I don't know exactly why, but when I removed my store here, my sales at my site suddenly hit an upsurge, no skin off my nose :-) I also get 100% profit, so double good for me. You know what's funny, a long time ago somebody told me I was being paranoid when mention of banning nudity in thumbs and banners was being talked about, they said "nahh, it'll never happen". Oh well :-)

"maybe members here can start trying to increase there skills by putting clothes on a figure instead of quickly making a nude pose pressing a button to render and quickly upload it to renderosity......" My very first renders here were fully dressed. I thought it was important to grasp that concept before doing whatever I chose to render. I still tend to some fully dressed renders but I prefer to showcase the shadow, lights & creativity achieved whatever the model might or might not be wearing. I've never had a render that was just pressing a button & rendering quickly. I tend to try using filters & other methods of post work. l probably explains my once a month gallery postings. As for making a stink I only answered the above question with all the information relevant to the situation. Like it or not thats how the events played out. FYI my banners do not contain nudity. The one of mine that did was rotated out & it was just a naked back....from what I understand even though no naughty bits were exposed its now unacceptible. Its no big deal to me I really needed to make a new one anyway.

Well, at least the "Censored" banner hasn't been showing up lately. It might get a few clicks from 14-yr-olds, but they don't have credit cards. A banner is effective based on how much money it earns, not on how many clicks it gets.

I am quite well versed in the "problem". This site is a 15+ site. Some of the nudity displayed was tamed compared to prime time tv. Some of it could give HBO a run for its green. The problem is someone at rosity approved banners they shouldnt of then presented the issue to the merchants poorly. (it wasnt the first time for that) The nudity issue should of clearly defined for what is & isnt acceptible. Some of the nudity wasn't "nudity". There were obstructions far larger than "black tape marks" over the naughty bits, and it was still removed. One of them was a woman in a dress showing less than a swimsuit. With the range of cultures the definition of nudity is different from one person to the next. Now things have gone to one extreme to another. Im not going to complain to the admins. I actually am offended by the way that was stated. Maybe there should be a vulgar language filter for when members act up. After all this is a 15 & up site.

Illusions: The merchants, for the most part, like me, are not placing their frustrations on the customers. Currently, the nudity filter does NOT filter the banner ads, as well. Thus, the decision to remove "borderline" banner ads. The "Censored" banner was created as a message to the ADMIN, not to customers. It appears to be achieving its goal, as they have just stated they are looking in to expanding the nudity filter to affect the Banner ads, as well. Ergo, please, do not put motivations in OUR actions, as you may not know everything that is going on. And THANK you.

Last time I checked merchants were members. I really dont understand the need for separation. =( I also dont think its fair that all of the merchants are being held responsible for the actions of a few.

illusions.. "If you're dissatisfied with the Admin's decision about the elimation of a banner, you should direct your dissatisfaction to them" we did. And we were told Members complained. The banners that were pulled were very mild and possibly suggestive but far less than the Herbal Essence commercial on tv is. "it's not the members fault and the merchants should not be misdirecting their frustration on the members that spoke up" none of us are.. The censored ads that you are seeing are no different than any other ad. They draw attention to them. No one is being punished and I haven't seen the issue being blamed on customers or members who spoke up against the nudity in banners. "perhaps it had less to do with what was covered or uncovered and more to do with the pose or something else in the banner they might have felt was innappropriate" actually on the banners that i saw that were banned It wasn't a pose or the clothing. They were very tasteful and well done ads. Now before you think that I was pro nudity I am not. Some of the banners running before were very embarrassing for me to have showing while I surfed the site in front of my daughter. None of my banners have ever had nudity nor would they. But I do understand sex sells. Please also Remember that the merchants are members here, and most of us support this community. We are NOT punishing anyone. We are strictly making our views of this issue known. And yep I am running a censored ad.

i just dont see the merchants point of view on this.......censored ads...???.....give me a break ...thats pretty dumb.... supporting something so childish like that......i wish renderosity just took down the banner ads that people were complaining about instead of takin down banners by blackhearted ....then this mess wouldnt be as big as it its right now.........you merchants should remember one thing.....you would be NOTHING if it werent for renderosity......all they were asking is that you follow the existing rules.....but no....you merchants have to make this campaign on being censored....whoopy doo....blackhearted wanted to make 3d soothers and give them out to the memebrs who bitch and complain.....while its the merchants who really should use them :-D

i wont respond to this thread any longer because its a repeating dead issue that should just die :-)

you merchants should remember one thing.....you would be NOTHING if it weren't for renderosity WAAHHHH HAAAA HAAAA HAAAAAAA!!! nnuu, you are absolutely right, all the merchants should just shut up and put up with anything that PTB says, without question. In fact, we all should. We should all just accept whatever anybody says, without protest or comment. Some day, when they say, we are cutting your share of the profits to 30%, the merchants will just say..OK. And some day, when the PTB tell you that you must pay to access the free stuff, you'll say..OK, and some day, when the PTB tell you that you need to subscribe to the website with a monthly fee, you'll say ..OK, and you'll do it all happily, without comment and just accept it, right? And next time you go to a restaurant, and they burn the crap out of your steak, and start to complain, and the owner tells you to eat it anyway, you'll say.. OK. You know, your right, absolutely right..OK We all feel better now.

Dammit, Davo, you beat me to it..... :P

"you merchants should remember one thing.....you would be NOTHING if it weren't for renderosity" Renderosity would be nothing without us. Most of the merchants are seasoned veterans. We support Renderosity with our sales, tutorials, tips, suggestions, and by promoting the site not only on-line but at artshows, conventions, ect.ect.... The merchants here are becomming an organized group with a voice. I might not agree with the campaign but its nice to see 700+ merchants all trying to work together. Some merchants feel like they are treated like second class citizens here. Rules & regulations have been changed with out much notice. Outspoken merchants have been removed from the merchant ranks because they didnt agree with some of the policies that were happening behind the scenes. I dont think its fair that you continue to place all of the merchants into one category. Not all of the merchants agree with the compaign. Not all the merchants are participating in it. Its no different that someone stating that all the members are warez distributer just because a select few were caught.

nnuu... you merchants should remember one thing.....you would be NOTHING if it weren't for renderosity umm switch that. Rosity wouldn't be here if it wasn't for merchants. Do the math. How much do y ou figure it costs to run this site? A MONTH, A Year.

actually Renderosity was here before the merchants as you already knew that stormrage....remember??? ........when you merchants where just members who all came together and posted art .........yes it probably wont surivive if the merchants were no more.......only because of the times now with a ton of other sites .......but.....to not give credit to renderosity is bunch of bull on your part ...yes i dont agree with all that renderosity says and does ......but this is the site that gave you the opportunity to sell your work ...that gave you the opportunity to showcase your art.....and you guys are acting like its your site and that renderosity should cater to your needs or else you will leave.....if anyone wants to continue this with me .... you can PM me and take your turns tag teaming me in private without the admins getting annoyed like they proabably already are ....thank you :-)

Well I for one wouldn't be a merchant without Renderosity, and I appreciate the opportunity they offer me. I'm not saying nnuu is absolutely right, but I can see where he's coming from and I agree with some of his points. And for those who are running Censored banners - what exactly is so hard about remaking your old banners? I'll be honest; you could be selling Victoria 4 behind one of those banners and I'm not clicking on it unless I have some clue of what the product is. I don't quite understand how running those banners is helping anyone, including yourselves. Eh, maybe I'm just another old member here who's sick of all the complaining. ;) Thanks for your time, take care. SnowS

nnuu... you will never listen to anything a merchant says. Therefore, this is my final post on the subject. The problem is with the fact that in reent months, Renderosity has been making changes to the way merchants are being handled without any warning... or worse yet, getting the merchants' opinions, then ignoring said opinions and slapping new restrictions down anyway. And the problem isn't making new banners... that's not difficult. The problem is that a) The banners being removed were WITHIN the TOS, and b) The removals were not even-handed. Far more suggestive banners remained, and some remain even now. They were random, and seemingly arbitrary. Yes, Renderosity was here before the merchants. But if all of the merchants were to suddenly leave, Renderosity would either collapse, or start charging membership fees. The site has grown too large to support itself without income of some kind, and the traffic through the MP is exactly that support. And, yet, even here, the merchants are treated like second class citizens. When we do a simple act of non-agressive protest, like the banner ads, we're told by the public to sit down, shut up, and take our new bonds like nice boys and girls. Nope, sorry. if the rules change, I want to know about them BEFORE they go into effect. And if they take the time to ask our opinions on matters dealing with the marketplace and the merchant Forums, then by gawd they'd better at least take those opinions into consideration. Otherwise, i may as well just go live in the merchant's Ghetto, and beg for scraps of crumbs falling from Renderosity's table.

Hey Nnuu don't put your assumptions here and assume they are mine as well. I never said that Rosity WOULDN'T be here or that Rosity wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the merchants. But give me a break we contribute between 40 and 50 percent of every sale we make. and that comes out to be a large chunk of change that pays for this site. I also don't expect ROSITY To do shit for me. I appreciate it and do all I can to support this site. YOU should know that. I have been one who gives a huge amount of free items to the members here. and as much as i have disagreed with Management in the past I am still here supporting the site and it's members. I am not asking for rosity to cater to me. I don't want that. I want though to be treated with respect. Which is what the members want as well. There cannot should not be 2 factions here, members and merchants. There should be just all of us MEMBERS. but because some people complain about something we get shafted most often and Yep i am tired of that. You can continue to assume that we are acting high and mighty and want this site to cater to us or you could actually look behind the scenes and see that some of us actually make our livings off of this or a part of our income and take our sales and customers and our buisness' very seriously. All we asked for was a nudity filter for the ads simply because it's fair and because what is nudity to one person is not to another. We are helping to improve the site for everyone. Not just ourselves. But you can and will believe what you want to. I value my customers, I value the members here. I have never and will never run a racy ad but.. I want to be able to showcase my items in the best way possible and if it includes a image with a bit of skin I should have that right. NOT nudity for nudity's sake but artistic to show the product I am selling. Snowsultan.. Mystery sells and has always sold. i am running 2 ads. my slide dress banner has been clicked 25 times. my censored has been clicked 138 which one is being looked at more.

I was using poser before renderosity came into being, back in the day of PFO, I sold my stuff at BBAY. With JACK'S open mindedness this site came into being, and finaly I could ask questions about monsters with penis's without fear of being kicked out of PFO. Now, whether you chose to believe it or not, there was a certain amount of "would you please sell your stuff here" going on prior to the store being opened, and wanting this site to succeed, and liking the way we were treated, we were happy to provide.

"Snowsultan.. Mystery sells and has always sold. i am running 2 ads. my slide dress banner has been clicked 25 times. my censored has been clicked 138 which one is being looked at more." I agree Stormrage, in fact I said the same thing early on in this thread... "That shouldn't be any surprise, images and banners alike that leave too much to the imagination always get more hits just to find out what it is. :) " ...I just think that more people are clicking on it because they think it's something erotic. ;) Have you actually sold more products since the Censored banners went up? Take care. SnowS

SnowSultan.. I honestly can't judge that. Because this time of the year I make more sales than I do the rest of the year. Basically because people have more money to spend with tax refunds, christmas money and such. So I can't say with honesty one way or the other that my censored ad is making more sales than is usual. But then most people know that I don't really keep track of my sales much. I know how much I make I can break it down. I don't though. This is not my only buisness. I make very little here compared to my Made to order buisness. This year my sales are up all around.

what compromise?

illusions... "it's not the members fault and the merchants should not be misdirecting their frustration on the members that spoke up" none of us are.. The censored ads that you are seeing are no different than any other ad. They draw attention to them. No one is being punished and I haven't seen the issue being blamed on customers or members who spoke up against the nudity in banners. I should have said none of us (that I know of) are. i did not read the threads about the banner issue until this morning. Because Honestly none of my banners are considered racy, disgusting or what all. I was aware that members asked for a filter, though. I answered a couple of your points because unfortuantly many of the members do not know why we are protesting. Because you cannot read the thread in the merchant forum. We asked for a better way a filter as well. You can't understand us if you can't understand the reasons behind it.

well, I don't see an actual "conspiracy" to g-rate the site. I so see the "possibility" that is what will eventually happen. I should have clarified "compromise" as end result I did see that the filters thing wasn't even going to be seriously considered, (the reason I bucked against the system) it's "easier" to tell the merchant that the no nudity rule will be enforced "and then some". The result was the immediate pulling of merchants banners that did not fall into the "nudity" category and an immediate implementation of a new "no suggestive stuff either" (the "and then some" part)policy and THAT was not well taken at all and occured in the Merchant Forum.

At this point, I am reluctant to post. While the reactionaries are on both sides, there are points, it is just hard to sort them out. Yes, I am a merchant, again I am reluctant to post that. My banners were not removed, but I was informed that they were close. I developed new ones, and was informed they were suggestive and would not be allow. You see my big items are lace and poses. And it presents me with a new problem of how to present them. Meanwhile, several merchants came up with the censored ad. And that took off. Several of them have reported increased clicks and increased sales. At this point, I had issues coming up with an ad that would be okay, and so I came up with a word ad, with no pics. And that would be okay, so I posted it. Its doing okay, not as big as some of the previous ones, but sales are doing well enough. Some have said they think the merchants are giving up space to protest. So far it seems that they haven't given up anything, in fact clicks on the ads are running 2 to 3 times higher. So, if that logical of being sales driven still holds true, I would expect them around for a while. They do have to be changed in 30 days. Some of the ads did need changing, let's leave it at that. And while customers did complain, that seemed to me to be an excuse to change something that was already desired. As Renderosity grows, there is a need to attract a more commercial market, including some advertisers/vendors who might not want to see the banners. And the way things sit at the moment, the banners are seen by everyone, visitors as well as members. To apply the filter, someone would have to be "logged-in" While some things could have been done better, (hindsight is always 20-20), I do think that this would have happened no matter who said what to whom! The ads would have been changed either this month or next month, but I don't think they would have continued even if no member had complained. The manner is which it was done, may have been justified, but it does not foster the "team". HOWEVER, after saying that, I do think the actions of yesterday on policies and code of conduct is a giant step in the right direction. In addition the 7 days to implement it is definitely the right direction. I do believe they finally get it, and I am very happy to see it! I look forward to working together as a team, staff, merchants, customers, for we are all members, team members that is. The only question left is: Can we put it behind us, and get on with it?

One would hope so, BlueBard. One would hope so.

I love the censored banner, I click on it EVERY time I see it! LOL! I want to see who's behind the banner!

oh man, Kawecki... LOL

Bluebeard, the simple answer is: the nudity filter should be ON by default if you are not logged in the site. Nudity filter should apply to everything including banners. That would take care of the problem, much better. I am all for a filter for those that feel they need one. I feel for the people that sell lingerie and other clothing items here, its a huge irony that lingerie top-sellers like Victoria Secret can get away with more nudity in a fashion magazine ad than the merchants here can get away with on a banner. Something is wrong with this situation.

"...unfortunately not all the merchants share your view and quite a few have been directing their displeasure at those members (customers)."

• Yep.

Merchants are angry because the policy was not discussed with them specifically and they had no chance to voice their concerns or ideas to help. The fact is the TOS states no nudity in the banners and the fact also is that the admins were getting lax in enforcing it. Because they haven't been enforcing an already existing rule and suddenly did, those irritated turned their anger on those who complained about a few tacky and embarassing ones.

I will not click a censored banner because it tells me that that merchant doesn't care about the concerns of their customers and potential customers. Some don't seem to care that they've offended their customers in this.
shrug oh well I guess. They will continue to refuse to listen to specifics and maintain their insult that anyone who doesn't agree with them has problems. I will continue to find others to purchase from.

A how you will find to whom belong the "censored" banner without clicking on it?

Part of the problem is that merchants don't always know how much the non-merchant knows, i.e. like the limitations on putting something on sale, you can do either one item or the whole store, and you can only have one sale at a time. While this has nothing to do with this topic, it just is an example of confusion between merchants and non-merchants. I use the term non-merchant for a specific reason. This brings up the fact that there appears to be some non-merchants that know more than they should. While there is no proof, I do believe of some who maintain a merchant ID and a non-merchant ID. While there are several good reasons for doing this, e.g. the staff offen have more than one ID to keep their staff role separate from their community role, and there are a few others. Its easier for accounting, etc. But, they don't hide this fact. Meanwhile there are others that use the alternate ID just to stir up problems between both. I don't have any proof, there are things that happen, that make me very suspicious. As a result, I don't think take a lot of what is said here word for word. As one has to be more than a little thick skinned at times. As far as the banners go, I do not mind changing them to less objectionable. Hower, a little warning would have gone a long ways. I do think that it is in the merchants best interest to not use filters. I think that would be rather defeating the purpose of the ad. We would be better off cleaning things up. It just means we have to become more creative. But, that is just my take on things.

Kendra: No, you are mistaken at least in my case. Many of the ads removed were NOT, I repeat NOT against the rules. They were removed as part of an overzealous attempt to "mainstream" the site, and it was done with no notice and in a very heavyhanded way. THAT is what -I- am protesting with my "Censored" banner. If that offends you, and you think my protest to the Admin is a protest against the customers, then so be it. It is NOT true, but so be it.

I understand protesting against the way it happened. I disagree with protesting against the reasons. I'm a merchant too (albeit a small one), I just happen to agree with those who complained about the few banners that went overboard.
Really there are only 2 people I have a problem with. One who can't seem to see other points of view and will insult anyone who disagrees with him, and one who demands the right to push his idea of artistic nudity (it isn't) into anyones face regardless of whether they want to see it or not. And I won't elaborate on either.

They said they would attempt the filters. I hope they do because like the gallery, nudity - artistic or otherwise - has a time and place.

Once the filter starts up, I will be replacing my banner ad. Note that I have never had a nude banner ad, nor have I needed one... unless naked dragons and sea beasts count as nudity... ^_^

"Many of the ads removed were NOT, I repeat NOT against the rules." so are you saying that banner ads that did not have some nudity in them were deleted?