I honestly don't understand why folks are so worried that we will see any major changes in the free stuff. So far, I haven't seen anything offered at the online store that wasn't available at BBay (to the best of my recollection, at least) and that didn't have a tremendous effect on free stuff. What has actually changed? The location of the front door has changed. And everyone knows the first three most important things to consider in any business are 1) location, 2) location and 3) location. Ok, the management has changed as well, but that happens almost everywhere you go at some point or other. No big deal. As for all us "poor starving artists" being charged an arm and a leg for necessities, well, I don't see it. 90% of the stuff offered in the online store section are things I would never have a use for (sorry, Davo, your creatures are awesome but I can't think of how I would ever use a single one of them in an image) and so won't cost me a penny since I don't buy things I don't need. The same goes for PhilC's corset. It's lovely, excellent work, but it's not on my list of necessities since I don't do semi-nude or erotic images (ok, I did one once, but it was an experiment in posing and texture map alteration so clothes would have defeated the purpose). I've noticed, especially lately, that there are almost always some people who are going to panic or overreact to any sort of change. It's just a fact of life. But another fact of life is that things change. Change is the only constant in life. Whether the change is for better or worse is decided by how we accept it and deal with it and whether we make it work for us or against us. Kate the observer

Those are very good points Kate, and as Traveler mentioned, there will be a request/comments section avaliable soon, which prompts me to ask.."what would you PAY for"...you need not reply, I was just curious. You are right, nobody will pay for what they do not need, as well as nobody will download from the freestuff pages what they don't need. This panic will pass, as it always does. I wasn't around at the split from that Willow persons site, but I'm sure there was a hell of a lot more panic than this...and look at this site now! WOW! Thanks for your comments, Davo

Good decision Trav. I think all in all that it will just work itself out and things will remain about the same around here mainly because of the community that has been built over the last year--not because there was a site that used this same server prior to last August or so. That site moved, took its member base, its freestuff, its administrators and set up somewhere else--like Kate says, locations move. This site was built from the wreckage that was left behind and has evolved in a different way. Vive la difference'. There's room for 2 or more different 'styles' on the net and my feeling is that if we want this to remain a 'free', open minded and vibrant community right here as its been, then we will have to accept some compromises. This particular compromise doesn't particularly bother me much--it appears to bother others more, but I think that with most things on this site, the concerns will be addressed and things will move on just fine. Obviously, just my opinion. Diane B

I'm not going to repeat the comments I've made on the thread from the front page, except to mention my "free stuff" is at: http://victorian.fortunecity.com/impressionist/1030/ because, like many others, using the current Freestuff would break the agreement on the host. The last item I added (the thigh morphs) wasn't very well recived, which has a lot to do with why I haven't added anything lately. I don't know how guys like Trav can do it, there is only so many hours in a day, I also work full time in my "real" job too!

jim, try homestead.com

Since I don't use animals in my renders I hadn't noticed the dropoff in that area. I have noticed that those items I do find useful are still plentiful and improving in quality at the same rate they were before the advent of BBay. I suspect it's all a matter of perspective based on what the individual needs happen to be. Kate

I don't know, Allie. I have about all the animals that have been made available--both freestuff, Debra's (not all of hers) and Zygote--oh, and Digital something. Almost all of the free stuff (animals) was made by Bloodsong, Anton Kiesel and Scott. Both Bloodsong's and Anton's are at either Prop Guild or Poser World not Funstuff. I think the last thing Scott did was a redo of some of Digital's stuff. The only animals available on BBay were Debra's and her other free things are still available on her site. I don't think BBay had any impact on animals at all because I feel almost certain Debra would not have offered her animals free--not in the detail she offered for sale anyhow. Scott's things were good too-I just looked at his elephant last night--not as detailed as Debra's, but it was free. The cow that was around might have been his also. As I recall, he took them down for some reason--but not in response to BBay I don't believe. Anton hasn't been around until just this past week so BBay can't have affected him and Bloodsong just hasn't done anything new except her jaguar morphs/textures (am I right, Bloodsong?) recently. I don't think BBay has anything to do with that. Truthfully, there were very few doing animals--mostly morphs and textures of available animals and these are around. If you look at the 'other' Freestuff for comparison, this one still moves along with added things weekly whereas the 'other' has very little new recently. What will happen, I don't know--but the limitation as to who will sell in the store will make it just about like BBay's, I think. As I said, I still think the store should be for unique and special models, textures, etc--ones that are worth buying. Diane B

I have posted a long (possibly overlong) thread above on the question of commission rates and why I think it might be an idea to reduce them. Here is another argument. Assume that someone in this forum makes another Victoria (only better and a new mesh and there are many here capable of that) and decides to sell it. Assume also that they are not going to fleece people for $90 plus more for hair, tex maps, morphs and clothing but are going to charge $50 for the lot, a complete package. How big is their market? For something like Victoria it might be 1000 model sales, maybe more if the price is right and the model good enough. At 50% commission that is $25,000 to BBay/Renderosity. In one of her posts above fur said " before knocking anything, ask someone who's built an online store just whats involved. Heres just some of the things you would need to get started:" and then lists a lot of things that cost money. But for the $25,000 lost to the artist in commission charges he or she could easily buy all of that and more and have a lot left over. This might be put into reducing the cost of the model to say $40, in turn increasing sales even more and leaving the artist with a nice shiny new server and a functioning online store in which they could also broker stuff. It is one of the reasons anyone involved in making really high demand models will probably not sell through the Poser Store (no offence intended to any artist selling there already). This is a major loss of a market segment and potential revenue to Renderosity/BBay before you even start. I believe the Poser Store should take a long term view on this and not use the argument of everyone else charging 50% or more commission as the reason for doing the same. Break the mould and try much lower rates, if they don't work up them. Remember this store, unlike other purely commercial operations, is growing out of a community of people with a culture of sharing and helping each other. Commerciality in their "online home" is a difficult and even resented concept for many in such a community to come to terms with. Lower rates might prove much more acceptable to all concerned and increase volumes dramatically in sales turnover and in the range of stuff being put into the store. STORM

Here is a thought for all of you... What if I charged for you to be here or the other sites charged you? Some of you forget that I and the rest of the staff are contributing to the community to offer this place and what have I or any of the others asked from any of you? Nothing. Someone want to pay the 1500 dollars a month for the server to host this place? I would be more than willing to let them, I'm not rich!! Someone want to work 17 hours a day on this forum for free? They are more than welcome too, lord knows, I and some of the others get a little tired of it. Yeah, so Renderosity makes a few bucks brokering artist's work. Where do you think that money will be going to? Back into this site and the others for you to keep coming and sharing. You worried about Freestuff decline? This might piss some of you off, but this is a community, which means also thinking about something more than yourself. The artists that dedicate their time and effort here, the admins and myself included have families to feed, schooling to pay for, god knows what... try supporting them, if not finacially, then with sincere best wishes, instead of BASHING them. Just my Honest Opinion, take it for what it is worth. Jack

As someone who visits this place at least once a day, everyday, you and the other admins have my complete respect and admiration for the sheer amount of work, dedication and professionalism you have put into making this the best 3D graphics site on the web. Maintaining and growing such a resource and paying for the bandwidth all costs and this has to be paid for. Commercialism in some form is consequently a reality if this place is to stay alive. The Poser Store is part of that reality and if Renderosity does not open one someone else will. The Store is a natural and required development and I welcome it and wish it well as yet another resource for artists being offered by this site. I would like to see the store make lots of money for all involved, artists and Renderosity because all are deserving of this. My only concern is what is the best, most viable and sustainable commercial policy for the Store. Thus my posts above on a slightly different approach to commission charges. One of the consequences of entering the commercial retailing world is competition (if your leave yourselves open to it). There are plenty business-minded people out there who will happily let you do the hard work of setting the thing up and then pounce on it and cherry pick it by offering better deals to contributors and customers. That is a reality of the commercial world. So be forearmed and forewarned, make it hard for the potential commercial competition to do this, protect you asset and your investment by making sure that your Store offers the best deals and rates possible to artists and customers. It may not be possible to lower the commission rates, but if it is I would urge you look long and hard at this issue again. In my opinion it is the one potential "Achilles heel" in the whole venture, everything else - the 15,000 members, the reputation of this site, the existing goodwill and much more are all working for you. The best of luck to you Jack, the Team and the Store. STORM

You know, I participated in this thread very early on. I posted my OPINION about a change that was occurring. I did not attack anyone personally, I did NOT call the administrators/forum moderators names or question their integrity. I was not thinking of myself (gimme, gimme, gimme), I was thinking of the COMMUNITY (interact, share, bond) and what was perhaps best for it. I ADMIRE the work you all do. I think this forum has (had?) been a model for what forums should be. As you know I inquired about the software because I think it's so great and wanted to do a different forum elsewhere. If becoming a business is what's required to keep it going then fine. But, did you ever think of asking for donations? Did you ever think of dues to belong to a club? Did you ever think of the middle ground between free stuff and a full blown business - Shareware? Hey, people offer ideas, suggestions and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Accept it in the vein in which it is given. Heck, by the looks of things you all took some of the ideas and have made modifications to the store. If you don't want to hear it then act like the moderators elsewhere and close or remove the thread.

Bam, yes, there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, my response wasn't for those that had that, but instead complained and offered nothing constructive out of it. My frustration is directed at the may-sayers that offer nothing but, "I DONT LIKE THIS". At least you and some others have written criticism of VALUE.. not just complaining. So please do not think it was directed at you. We had thought about donations and contributions early on in the game, this was tried at another place of ours and didn't justify the income vs. overhead. Some people have to be forced to pay or they wont pay at all. What we DIDN'T and still DON'T want to do is charge admission to the sites. That doesn't help everyone, it just helps the people who can afford it and that isn't what the spirit of this forum is about. I would never ask for money from anyone without being able to give them something for it. The best solution to meeting our bills and overhead, while still offering something to them would be through a store setting which by supporting the artist and helping to sell their work, we can still afford to pay our bills. I hope that helps in explaining my position some... ??? Jack

Storm, Currently, we have the best brokerage program in this area for artists wanting to sell their work. Due to the Visa/MasterCard announcement in late April, announcing that there would be fines applied starting from $1,000 to $24,000 a month could be applied to your company if you recieve more than 1% in charge backs from your Internet Merchant Account. This announcement had been in answer to the growing problem of charges backs on credit cards that the Adult Industry had been piling up, unfortunately, their rules now apply to everyone, not just the Adult Porno sites. Finacially, this is the best deal we can offer and still cover the costs of transactions, if we find something better in the future, this may change for the artists, however, I don't really see the greed of the Credit Card companies ever disappearing... Jack

Oh...and one other thing for the record here... Just because the artist sells here, doesn't mean they can't sell somewhere else too... so if they can get a better split (which I doubt or would like to know about so I can find out what Merchant company charges less), I say put the products there also!! The main idea is to help them make some sort of return on all of their hard work and get their product out there to the public. I see them being able to make more money if they have more than one place carrying it, different customers in different areas! Jack

fur- Thanks, I never checked homestead, the stuff is in Freestuff as of this morning!

Now that is unusual: you don't require exclusivity from the artists? That is quite enlightened.

Oh heck NO, we want the artists to make income where-ever possible!! We want to help them in their endeavors, not hinder them! Jack

Thank you for explaining Jack, hopefully it will help to alleviate any worries and build confidence in the venture. STORM

No Problem, that's what I am here for :o) Jack

I thought you were here as a target for the slings and arrows around here. I'm sure I read it in the terms of service somewhere... Let me find it... I know its here somewhere...

you think it would/does some days.... Jack

Please count Darth_Logice amongst the people who are happy to see the marriage of BBay and Renderosity. I think it's great having as much as possible under one roof, and I think everyone deserves compensation. If I download fifteen hundred morphs from traveller for free but pay 25 dollars for his fashion packs, I consider that money going to his collective endeavors, not so much the one item, you know? Some days I am still amazed I get to hang out here for free. This place could easily be a subscription site. -Darth_Logice

Jack and Company are charged for the following: 1) Bandwidth. 2) Hard drive Storage. 3) A flat fee for each transaction. 4) A percentage of each transaction. 5) Each and every chargeback - not just the amount of the transaction, but an additional $10 - $25 above the transaction. I've had to deal with credit card processing places before. They suck. I wish they merely nickel and dimed you to death. In traditional mediums, the artist has to pay for the paint, canvas, and frame for each piece. For digital media, once the artist pays for the software, they're done. How many people here have bought software just for making money on models? Very few. Most people here are hobbyists that already have the software or use the software professionally for other projects. Jack and Company are the ones taking all the financial risks while the artists are free to go and have their stuff sold at multiple sites. Once this really gets going, they may be able to raise the commissions.