So I've been posering for about 5 months now. All is good. I love what I do (most of the times) and I really enjoy this media. But today I showed some of my works to a very young graphic designer ( that is, a guy who probably just finished his four years of graphic design college) to see what he thinks. I showed him a little of my poser works and some of my photoshop and freehand works. He thought most of them were very good, but the Poser ones were, as he called it "just some things you put together". He said, "okay, so you took this woman and put clothes and hair on her and posed her like this. So.. what did you really do here anyway." And he didn't say it because he doesn't know Poser or understand it, but because that's what he thinks of it. You can imagine how I felt when he said that, after having spent the last 5 months sitting next my computer doing nothing (well, almost...) but Poser. I don't think that my Poser work is just "some things you put together"! There's a lot of hard work and time and effort that I put in my work, even if I didn't "creat" Victoria or whatever. Is it just me? Do people really see Poser as nothing more than a Barby Doll for grown-ups? Just had to let it out. That guy really pissed me off today!

Haha, everyone here has encountered that kinda thing before. It doesn't bother me because: a) I am a graphic designer (and a pretty good one, too). b) I'm enjoying myself using Poser - and sometimes even make a little money with it. c) I think of it as a virtual studio, rather than a virtual canvas. Maybe I'm just rationalising the Barbie aspect away, but it works for me. :)

No, I think you have something there. That's a really good analogy, and I think I may use it the next time this subject comes up in my life. If someone says that, or asks that sort of thing, then your response could be to turn and ask that person if that is also how they view a studio photographer. A studio photographer, has models, make-up, wigs, props, costumes, lighting, backdrops, and even simulates atmospheric effects. Then s/he has to compose a scene using these elements, and use the settings on his/her camera (perhaps even using special lenses), and the angle he wants. Once the picture is taken (let's skip the development and printing and say it's a digital camera), s/he might then take more steps in a graphics application to polish up the image, add special effects, and adjust the lighting and colors before s/he is satisfied with the image. I don't see how what we do with Poser requires any less skill or talent than that of a studio photographer.

And he could say the same thing about the people who made Final Fantasy. "So what did you really do here? So you plopped down a motion captured actor, moved a camera around, fiddled with some lights then sat back and let the computer make it all." But I also agree with this in a way. I do online comic stories with poser and used to do hand drawn art. I make no comparison to my poser work and hand drawn stuff and do not consider myself an artist in any way close to the hand drawn art people. Its like comparing a Frank Llyod Wright house to a double wide trailor. I do the art to make content and not so much for art sake.

Here's the results of "Just putting things together" I put this pic together with just conforming the clothes, not bothering to fix any 'poke through', default lights and zero postwork other than trimming the empty space off the sides

momcat, one thing we have over the studio photographer is we don't have to pay our models and they will hold any dumb pose we stick them in as long as it takes to get the lights set the right way :-)

I say screw that guy. What's photoshop? A bunch of filters? Did he draw stuff by hand, or use the tools available to him to create whatever grandeur design he working on next. What's 3D but a bunch of primitive shapes? The studio photographer analogy is a good one too, well said. Anyway, let him sit on his high horse, you get back in front of that computer and put together some more stuff, you rookie you :)

This might not be appreciated. I don't consider this art. My original training in life was to be a draftsman; thats how I got into this computer 3d stuff anyway. So what I do I don't in any way consider art; because i'm not an artist. If a person IS an artist, I don't think it matters what method they use to create the art, it only matters that the message they are trying to convey comes across. As a for instance, my dad can pick up my kids cheap plastic guitar and make music come out; a person who doesn't have the art, doesn't have the gift, won't be able to make music come out of anything. If they have a good technical training, and practise, and stick with it, they might make something that sounds like music, but it still won't have any soul.

Hehehe...same here SamTherapy. I am also a graphic designer (and a pretty good one too ;o)). I guess your friend puts no stock in such things as composition then A_? Because in order to make a really good looking Poser image you must have good composition, lighting, and (sorry purists) good postwork. I have news for your "friend" too...if he's truly a graphic designer (and not a commercial artist), then he's in for a rude awakening in his own job. Very rarely does a graphic artist work completely with their own creations. Someone else's logo maybe, maybe some stock photos or eps graphics, and fonts. Also, most of the time a graphic artist is told what the customer wants. Kinda limits the creative juices sometimes. It mostly lies in the - HA! - composition. Run that past him. ;o) What it all boils down to is if it makes YOU happy in doing it. Who the hell really cares what any else thinks :o). Laurie

I find it very interesting when we define ourselves or others as "artists" or "non-artists". I personally fall much more on the belief that we're all artists in some way! We all as humans have a huge drive to be creative and create something that expresses how we feel. Some of us have "it" and are regarded for some reason as "artists" while other don't have "it" and are regarded as something less. Isn't this the opposite of what we teach our kids? When children draw with crayons, we praise them for their effort and work regardless of their skill! We praise their creative little minds despite the squiggles. But sometime we "grow up" and suddenly some people are artists, and others are simply something else. Come on now, if it's creating something from the mind, in any way expresses one's emotions, and pleases the one who created it, it is art! It may not get 10 views, or it may get 500. It may not sell, or it may go at auction for $5000. What others think doesn't matter. It's still art!

I agree chanson. Sometimes art isn't in the skill, but in the substance ;o). And if it's any consolation, I'm my own worst critic. I'm harder on my own stuff than anyone else has ever been...LOL. Just goes to show you how personal a thing art really is. Art is not really for the masses, but for the artist who created it. Period. Laurie

Usually, not a month goes by in this forum without a post by someone who wants to proclaim (for reasons unknown) that pictures made with Poser aren't "art." Or from someone who uses a high-end 3D app proclaiming that Poser is a "toy." I have long made the analogy to photography, largely because it is the metaphor used by most 3D apps. And while Poser is much cheaper than 3DMAX or Maya, it is much more expensive than a pencil and a number of cameras. Moreover, while there are people here with arts and graphics backgrounds, I would not be shocked to discover that some segment of people who work in these fields will reflexively put down work by non-professionals and may even feel threatened by the power that technology puts in the hands of everyone. I'm not saying this is true of the person you showed your work to; I don't know. I do know that in my chosen profession (the law) is largely set up to discourage competition, to the point where some state bars were sued for violating antitrust laws. Go to your gallery, take a look at what others have said about your most recent pictures. It's pretty clear to me that people got what you were going for. Of course, I could argue that you need please no one but yourself, but to the extent that you have been posting pictures to communicate, you are succeeding. Of course, many of us here have plenty of room to improve (I sure do), but that can be part of the reason to keep going.

LOL! ::grabs a stick::

This comes up often, but I thought this recent thread Okay, so I'm an artistic Philistine from the OT forum approached this theme from a somewhat unusual direction.

I think it depends on the perspective of the person making the judgment. From a 3D Modeler's point of view, he'd think that if you didn't create the models, then it's not your own. From the illustrator's point of view, if you didn't draw it yourself (on paper), it's also not your own. I'm currently taking courses in 3D Animation and digital video and I'm amazed at how many of the instructors have never heard of Poser. I've even used the program in my Storyboards class because I can set up my scenes, camera angles, and characters and when I mention I used Poser for it they look at me like I have three heads. I know what you're speaking of when setting up the perfect scene with the posing, lighting, and camera angles, and finding the right props. Perhaps your colleague is still back in the days of the Etch-a-sketch and hasn't grown up to the age with more sophisticated software. By the way, I'm not knocking the canvas and paint either. Certain media is appropriate for certain audiences. This person sounds like a complete a-hole and maybe has a more narrow-minded perspective.

<< grabbing stick....

Look at My Characters I've created over the years, particularly V3 Spike and V3 Buffy (Co-created by Rogue Element). It took hours upon hours of fiddling with subtle dial settings to obtain good likenesses of real people. It is like sculpture. Not everyone can do a good likeness. Furthermore, what comes out of poser is a skeleton for me. It is the first part of a two-part project and it's not the longest part of that. Post-work is nothing more than Pure Art and having an "eye". Knowing what to move, what to add contrast to, knowing when to saturate or Blur, all this stuff takes instinct or training that not everyone has or ever will. Poser is a tool, and each image it's a part of should be based on it's own merits, not the software used to create it. -WTB

Art is art, it is either well concieved or it is crap. Those who tend to consider their work to lean more toward the crap end and works of others to be well concieved, are artists. Those who see their own work as art and others to be crap, are just assholes. Most poser works that I have seen have been far from being just slapped together. Sounds like somebody needs to have that stick pulled out.

This is a very interesting thread - just yesterday I was asking myself if I was only dressing and posing dolls (I would like to make the figures from scratch but I barely have time to work with the premade characters as it is).

I think original model creation (ie with bones and IK chains) is the major distinction between Poser as a hobby or a full artistic pursuit. That being said, one look at the galleries will show you there is a world of difference in how the program is used by different people and the kinds of images that can be created with creative lighting, texturing, morphing, composition and storytelling. I think it's only a toy if that's the way you decide to use it. Now excuse me, I have to go back to making art!

The Mona Lisa consist of: a small piece of rather poor quality canvas some ground dirt the dried remnants of linseed oil a lot of work Do you like what you do? Do other people respond to what you do? Tell your "friend" to kiss your ass. Scarab<-art is communication. whether you use smoke signals or satellite electronics....the message is the medium, not the other way around.

"Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know." ~Groucho Marx~

Did he build his computer out of coathanger wire, old light bulbs, and a couple of batteries or did he just hit the on button on someone else's creation? Photographers just point and shoot stuff that Someone Else scattered around. Most painters don't actually make their own paint. Now Hannibal Lecter ... there's a real artist..

Art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Some people will pay 1,000's for art that another person wouldn't take for free.

Do you know what I view Poser as? A very affordable character animation solution... A lot of people use poser for images... I use it a LOT for animation! I can't afford 3D Studio Max or Maya, much less the training, for my casual involvement... ... and Poser keeps it CASUAL! You know what? It IS easy to set up characters, and pose them, and ANIMATE them. Plus, it's brought me closer and closer to taking some time and pursuing an MFA in character animation. Its the same argument b/w programmers who use C++ vs. Visual Basic... "VB is too EASY"... ok, but I can make a VB app meet specs in a day, show it to the client and sell the contract... So BITE ME :-) People who do it "professionally" hold the world in contempt... but professionals know which tools to use and when, and never discount them. Just my 0.02 :-) -RP

Don't forget you're only a real artist if you make your own paint, brushes, canvas & models ;) Art comes from within the person not from whichever tool you use. I get these sort of comments from time to time from family members who see what I do as "playing about" but if what you do makes you happy just ignore them they will get bored & go away before long.

next time tell the person to give you the number to a beutiful woman(or man)with flawless skin and beautifulperfect body that you can pose nude for hours without charging alot!!

I totally agree with the point of view of people here (of course, being a poser user myself for more than 2 years). Now, since it is a pretty one sided thread, i will play the devil's advocate a bit: Taking the studio analogy again, you don't have to forget that you can get the best lights, best camera, best makeup and best models, the average guy would just make a shitty picture out of it... it is the same with poser, with one exception: you can even buy light, camera, poses and textures settings, so it can be like someone put everything ok for you in the studio and you just arrive and click the camera button and say you are the artist... Now once again, i totally agree with what i read in this thread, and i don't see why some people critisize (sp) the work of others when they use lets say a vicky char. with an existing texture and cloth... If you take the same char, textures and clothes, some people will make beautiful, creative pics and some other won't... that's life :)

Sounds like to me like your friend might be a tade jelous...Sharen:-)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=183080

I recently had a virtual gallery owner (a respected "expert" and teacher at a university) approach me about putting some of my images on their site for sale. Some of them they thought they were good, others not good, just like anything. Oohed and Aahed over one image in particular. Then the person asked what program it was done in. When I said Poser with some Photoshop postwork, they backed out - didn't allow Poser images (specifically Poser images) on the site because they're not art. Was way too biased against it. Link is to the image in question. It was good enough until Poser was mentioned. Had I mentioned it was done in MAX, he would have never known the difference. "Expert" my morph target. So I personally don't care what anyone thinks. The end result is what matters. I think that image is just as good as the pencil sketch I did of Adrian Vandenberg (also in my gallery, scanned, cleaned, and inked in Photoshop).

That is a great image, so detailed...I wonder why they don't like poser, it really is such a small part of work and yet contributes so much to images. Sharen

Thanks Sharen. :) I think it's just an elitist attitude. No artist creates without a tool of some kind. Lightwave is a tool. A #2 Pencil is a tool. And Poser is also a tool. I've used all three. Poser is a hell of a lot more fun than Lightwave. :)

Two words for your friend, Andy Warhol! What has effort got to do with Art? The thing that most people fail to realize unless they are an artist, is that there is a fundamental difference between an Artists and a Craftsman and an Arts&Crafter. A Metal Sculpter can weld and use wire work to express what his mind sees as an art form. For him, the medium is a means to the end, not the end itself in raw form. A Welder is not always an artist, he follows plans laid out for him, guidelines that are strictly inforced and rarely does anything to 'express' himself in the medium. To him, the medium is the product. An Arts&Crafter is neither. This is someone follows the directions of an artist or a craftsman to reproduce a simple piece of work but has no concept of the design or expression aspect nor do they really understand the medium beyond the scope of that single project. Often these people continue to reproduce the same FleaMarket bait over and over with only minor variations in color and rhinestones. Unfortunately the only people who seems to realize the difference between these classifications are the Artists, which unfortunately makes us seem egotistical or arrogant, when in truth it is a simple fact. A Medium is just a Medium, it does not define the end results as being Art, Craft or Junk. Your friend obviously was trained in art and understands the concepts. However I would mention that about 50-75% of all teachers at a university or like program are by most industry standards the ones who couldn't make in the real world so they fell back on the only thing they could do with their degree besides flip burgers, stayed at school until they could get work there. Remeber the old addage: Those that can't, Teach! They're jaded and generally rather arrogant in their presentation of the facts to their impressionable young minds and as a result the students tend to come out much the same way, pre-programmed with a jaded view on the current accepted practices and very full of themselves and their pre-programmed opions. Now I'm not saying that all teachers are like that, but it was a rare day in the Engineering or Art Colleges that I attended that I didn't have at least one of these washed-up wanna-bes leading a class of head nodders through the hoops of their own personal vendettas and opinions until they had to parrot it back to them to pass the class. Four years of that is enough to break most students to fit the mold and stop thinking for themselves. Your friend may very well be one of them. He's never actually stepped past 'Craftsman' or 'Arts&Crafts' and into 'Artist'. My thought would be if he thinks he knows so much, give him a picture you just finished in all its glory and gesture for him to sit down at your computer and duplicate it using only what you had to start with. When he fails, smile sagely and pat him on his little head and say, "When you get past the Arts&Crafts books, come talk to me. I'll be intrested to hear your views on 'Real Art'." Puts down her stick after a couple of whacks ;) Littlefox

{Do people really see Poser as nothing more than a Barby Doll for grown-ups?} ACTION FIGURES! Not, "Barbie", ACTION FIGURES! Men (yes, even "artists") don't play with Barbies or dolls, they play with action figures. Yes, this is beating an already dead horse, but... In what other industry do people rapaciously lust after the next "hot" clothing item (usually "fantasy" or armor)? Or the next "must-have" accessory? Make an image, call it art, and justify that it's not playing "dress up doll" on the computer.

I am an automotive designer, but for years made a living doing illustrations. I began my work life as a photgrapher working everything from weddings to industrial photography. I started doing art because I got tired of my photos always having things in the wrong place.(ie: telephone pole sticking out of my models head). Poser is like having a camera and your choice of subject matter and background. I must say, it takes twice as much HARD work. Poser figures require an excellent eye to make them look natural. Trying to figure out what is "wrong" in the pose can be a hairpulling experiance. Then when you get into post work you are presented with a whole new set of problems. So working with poser, vue 4 , rhino, etc, all require just as much artistic ability as slinging paint.

Speak for yourself, I played with Barbie dolls, lusted after a princess Leia too as a kid... :) However most of my women are barely dressed, so I can neatly sidestep the "dressing up" part :) Most of my men too come to that... :P Nice Shadowrun image though, wouldn't have looked out of place on a cover. later jb