Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=362866

Ok, normally I don't care if I get a comment on my images that say it needs work or is a bit off - that's how we all get better - from constructive feedback. If I was a heavy woman I would have been hurt by the comments on my latest image "Roman Rubenesque *nude*" the commentor has insulted the image - not because it is of poor quality (though it isn't fabulous) but because it features a heavy nude woman. Now if a person is offended by a heavy nude woman why view an image with the words "rubenesque" and "nude" in the title?? Originally I contacted clint about the comment as I didn't want it to create flames under the image by follow-up posters. But then I got to thinking - what constitutes "art"? Now I'm not talking about which program is used or if it is oil or computer generated, but the subject matter itself. Is a heavy naked woman less "art" than a naked skinny - just past adolescence girl is? Is using Mike less artistic than using vicky? Portrait images less artistic than gothic prison/temple scenes? If you dislike a specific subject matter and choose to view it should you really lower rankings when your dislike has nothing to do with the actual processing of the image? I frankly don't care much about the lowering of my ranking on the image - but it just points out a biasness towards weight by the commentor. Had the comment said - "The use of colour in a black and white image is really detracting" I'd have been fine with that as it was based on the image itself and not a biasness towards heavy people. What constitutes art?

Well I viewed your picture and I think it is wonderful...as for comments left to you, I don't agree with that kind of comment personally, it doesn't serve any purpose to the artist or others that view it. Sharen

In some cultures weight is a sign of presteige. This lady is a queen. We have enough young girls suffering from illness due to a belief that only 1 body shape is acceptable. I applaud you for seeing beauty in the diversity of shapes. Bravo

Some people are just closed minded and refuse to recognize that beauty has many forms shapes and sizes. There is more than one type of woman and each is beautiful in their respect. Wonderful image!! Keep them coming.

LSM - I think your character is wonderful and so is the image itself - great job! Why let the opinion of someone like that faze you?

The commenter is probably just some naive kid, who believes everything the media feeds him. not worth worrying about. Nice pic BTW.

LadySilverMage, I normally stay out of these discussions but this sort of continuing bias really pisses me off. I personally think the figure in your image has amazing proportions...IMHO she's beautiful! If people don't like what they see, they can hit the back button on their browser, simple as that. There are post like this all the time, my 'art' was critised for being crap, porn, fairies, etc...the list goes bloody on and on, usually it ends up in flames and locked threads. I feel in this case you've posted a very mature, concise and well supported argument and legitimate question...I hope it remains a civil discussion. Point being: The interpretation of art is relative...its art if you truly feel it is.

BRAVO - your character features a very rubenesque character who looks healthy and at home with herself. I think the pic is wonderful. We need more real looking characters like this. I 2 am sick of sticks... as a 45 year old woman - can guarantee you that I am not 5'7" 110lbs anymore but am much healthier 140lbs and more SELF SATISFIED with the heftier size which finally gave me boobs and hips and nobody calls me toothpick legs anymore (thank god sister cant call me thunder thighs though;-D)!! Keep up the GOOD work - the fools who can't see beauty in all shapes and forms are not worth your time or effort and probably have no idea what a woman looks like outside of an advertisement or porno site/mag. Good Luck!

Apparently overweight women are the last group of people for whom it is considered permissable to make fun of and discriminate against (I cringe every time a fat woman joke is trotted out in a sitcom...it's pathetic that people have so little imagination). It's really sad, and shows the shallowness, insecurity, and limitations of the person who posted. It says nothing about the beauty and elegance of your graphic. Wonderful portrayal, and there's nothing the galleries need more than variety. I'm glad you posted it.

There is tremendous bias in the 'western world' against big, beautifully curvy women. Every time that I encounter it, I'm still slightly shocked by its vehemence...almost as if a big woman frightens or somehow pushes buttons in insecure people of any sex. Makes me wish I'd been there to ask, er....Darkstarhellion a couple of questions. Like: Are you by any chance an adolescent male? Or perhaps just at an emotional age that approximates adolescence? Did you feel uncomfortable looking at a representation of a female who out-weighs you and is possibly stronger than you are? And, as you pointed out, LadySilverMage, they chose to view the image despite the description you provided. So they deliberately exposed themself to something that disturbs them...sounds kinda kinky to me ;)

What's really funny, or maybe even sadder, some of those who have the prejudice the most are overweight men (and not very attractive ones at that)....so it's okay to be a fat male but, heaven forbid, you be a large woman. The mentality speaks for itself.

Trolling is one thing to get annoyed with, but a negative comment? So what? If it bothers you that much, don't enable comments. Or perhaps just tell people to only leave positive comments in the notes section.

Kinky is GOOD! Ok. let's say Patricia is right and the disturbance is "KINKY." Now we're getting somewhere. A good kink gets harder to find all the time. If you have acomplished that hat's off to you.

well it looks better than I do LOL I think it is apalling how you are disregarded if you are not the "ideal",weight. We are not all the same and thank god for the diferences I say..

fls13 - I don't mind negative comments at all. I appreciate constructive critiscism to be honest. I have heard great constructive comments that have only helped me to improve or look at things with a different eye. I began doing heavier women for fun - something different than my usual, I knew in doing so that the "subject" wouldn't appeal to everyone, but honestly if one is going to use the feedback form why not use it as intended - for constructive comments. Saying that heavy women are something to be hidden and that those who like them are "perverse" is not commentary on the work but on the model. It isn't about a negative comment - it's about the concept of art. Frankly I would almost consider the comment to be trolling - a person finds heavy naked people distasteful and they choose to view and comment knowing ahead of time what the image is about? But I do believe it is a good basis for discussions on subject versus talent/processing. Whish is it that we expect?

that should read "which is it" :-O

There are any number of people here who will complain about a lack of "art" in the galleries...but some of these will make non-art related remarks about subjects that don't reflect their own notions of beauty (and who declared that only beauty is the only allowable theme for a graphic). It is a narrowness of vision that is self-limiting. The theory is that people who participate in the galleries should be imaginative and creative, but yet they cut themselves off from all but a narrow band of permitted topics by insisting such things as, it must be about whatever their particular obsession is. There is nothing creative or imaginative about forcing my prejudices on someone else. And, I admit, there are subjects I find boring and redundant on the galleries...and I will say freely they aren't my thing...but I don't leave comments on the graphics saying that the person shouldn't do what they like. If the person in question had commented on the artistic merit of the graphic, that's one thing. But he commented on the weight of the subject, which is not relevant to the graphic as a piece of art. So he only wants boringly identical women in graphics...fine, but what kind of criticism is that because someone dares to be original and different? As a woman of size, I refuse to stay hidden for the sake of pleasing a bigot.

I have looked at your image, and I think your style of colorizing a B&W image is neat. Interesting that the colors used on the bowl are the same as lips and eyes. As for trolls, I think you simply ran into an individual who understood the word 'nude' and had no concept of 'Rubenesque.' He was therefore stunned to come across your larger than waif character. Keep up the good work. Don't let the small minds get you down.

The term "Rubenesque" derives from the Flemish painter Peter Paul Rubens (1577 - 1640) who frequently painted women of substance, so there's an artistic precedent right there. :-) We could all wish for nothing but constructive criticism in the galleries (nothing but praise is asking too much, LOL), but human nature being what it is, there will always be a troll along sooner or later. Your commentor knew exactly what he was saying, and what effect it would have. In fact, he was probably attracted by the title. "Troll: v. To post an inflammatory article in the hope of provoking a response. From the angling term. Troll n. One who Trolls. The best thing to do to a troll is to ignore it."

Thank you, I specifically carried those colours over in this image (& I think it's my best painted hair yet lol). I do realize that it is asking too much for only constructive commentary I think most rationale people do. I also realize that if one is too thin skinned than don't invite comments (or post your work). What I found interesting was that the comments had nothing to do with image itself and in fact is aimed at weight. I could do the same image with a big breasted thin waisted woman and the comments would then be about the colouring and the lighting, maybe even the hair. As artists I would hope that we can all find "art" in many different forms and shapes. There are some truly grotesque gothic/macabre images in the gallery, nothing wrong with that they are a style of art and appreciated as such. When an image is done of a gothic character that is anorexic thin (as sinsister did in an awesome piece recently that I personally found beautiful in a truly sinister and macabre manner) there are no comments about weight only about the images - but use a heavy model and it is suddenly about the weight and not the "mood", "style" or what have you. As I stated on the image if one rules out bigger models they are missing out on pieces by fabulous classical artists such as Rubens and others and closing themsleves off to truly beautiful work.

Gads, here I was expecting to see this grossly overweight beast, and instead I find a woman with a little meat on her bones. Yeesh! I think it looks gtreat. Not just the character, but the overall feel of the image. Nicely done. ~EA

Milady, allow me to repeat what I stated below your art. Never dwell on the inability of others to deal with their own inadequacies when those inadequacies render them unable to see beyond or hide their own impotence and inabilities. Write it off to jealousy and keep creating whatever you damn well please! You do excellent work! Take care, be well, keep flying. casamerica

Having gotten my share of content comments, I can understand how you feel. Comments really should be about the quality and technique of the art, not about the subject matter. Ihope that we use the gallery comments we make to try to help or encourage the artist. BTW, it is a beautiful pic. Tones really set off the model. I wish it were bigger though. My old eyes would love to see more of the detail.

I don't think it's appropriate to leave comments about the subject if you don't like the subject. I've seen pictures amazingly well done that I didn't like the subject of. To me that's not the point and I can comment even if I don't like the contents of the picture. I can appreciate lighting and reflections and how balanced a picture is, regardless of what the subject matter is. Btw, great render LSM. I do happen to like the subject. Now if you had put a big red circle on a white canvas, then I might have issues with it being art. ;)

Again... late on the draw... so to speak... I, too, thought it was going to be some obese monstrocity... only to find a "real" woman... As far as the comments go... me being the 18th commentor, you only had the one negative post. LSM, you have "proved" yourself to be a quality artist (at least in my book) and I would think that comments such as the one made for you image would be beneath you. Knowing that the poster made the comment either to intentionally "flame it" or has little or no artistic training to appreciate diversity. I loved it... the image and the content both! -Lee

I was once heavily criticized for promoting anorexia in an image I did (the only scaling to negative in the body was in the shoulders.. everything else was scaled LARGER). It goes both ways, unfortunately. I have my own vision of what I want. Just because I do an image of a goth girl who is about 10 or 15 lbs. underweight doesn't mean that I promote anorexia. And just because I do an image of a woman who is 20-30 lbs. overweight doesn't mean that I promote obesity. I make conscious artistic choices to use bodies that support the image I am making. If others disagree with the choice I have made, that is their purvue, but I will not change my style to suit others. Ignore it LadySilverMage. Not everything we do is to everyone else's taste, and that's ok. =)

Some of the worlds greatest artists portrayed large nude women :) Based on the positive feedback you've gotten, I would not worry about one malcontent. You image is well done and very subtle. Keep doing what you love. There were a lot of people who though Picasso would never amount to anything :) So there you have it! :)

I am not the slightest bit worried about the negative comment - I suppose that it saddens me a bit that in a community of "aritists" such biasness would exist for any image. Be that the stick thin goth figures or the rubenesque women. There is artistic merit all around us and for an artist (I say artist because why join an artist's community if you do not perceive yourself as an artist on some level) to close their eyes and make those types of comments seem blind to me. I appreciate constructive criticism when I receive it - makes me work harder, as do positive comments that point out what a person enjoys about the image. Just saying WOW doesn't always tell me what I did right lol

a Quick note - above, when I said that I contacted Clint I wanted to state that I ultimately decided I did not want the comment removed. I think that we open ourselves up when we post art and that this was a chance to make a good point and open commentary on "what constitutes art?" and biasness even within the art community.

The best part of this, to me, is that I probably would have missed the graphic had you not posted the question on the forum. That would have been my loss. Thanks!

"Comments really should be about the quality and technique of the art, not about the subject matter." Why? This comment is as narrow-minded as the one that was made on the pic. Interesting subject matter can overcome a lot of technical flaws and what's the point of work that covers the same old ground no matter how technically perfect it is?

If I could only look as well proportioned as Maxine, I'd be a very happy fat lady. It's a beautiful morph and a gorgeous render as I stated. Some people-- not just randy teenagers, either-- seem to want to be entertained in the galleries. There is something about being face to face with a lot of flesh that scares even sophisticated critics. There was a realist painter in the last decade who got incredible flak over his choice of models. One was seriously more clinically obese than Maxine. Critics found it unartistic-- it got in the way of the art. These were serious critics. I have to assume that there is not just a licence to dislike fat in the society but an active fear of it. You see similar comments on renders of the Golden Girls and other older women who are not "funny." Again it feels like fear. As if we were in ghetto of perfectly shaped women and men who could not grow old-- well, some of the men could-- and could not die, except in acceptably fantastic combat or gothic situations. And then someone pulls back the curtain and shows something closer to real. And it's scary. It's not titillating, it's not entertaining, and people lash out. If this picture bothered your critic, he'd probably never recover from Rembrandt's portraits of his wife. Emily

What significance does a person's prejudice against women who are overweight make to evaluating a piece of art that happens to have an overweight person in it? It shows the limits of that person's ability to judge fairly artwork that doesn't happen to meet their taste, but what does it prove? Let's say I like dogs and hate cats. Should I then say that a piece of art that happens to have cats in it is awful based solely on the fact that there are no dogs in it? That's just as silly. Either I over come my prejudice about cats, and evaluate the art on the basis of its craft and technique, or I admit I'm too bone headed to be able to see past the fur and am not equipped to judge without taking in consideration the subject. I had this happen to me recently. I happened to make a graphic with a robot in it and one of my friends said he couldn't give me feedback because he doesn't like robots. I pointed out that what I was asking for feedback on was the light and reflections...to me, the subject could have just as easily been a fishbowl for all I cared. It happened to be a robot but it wasn't essential as far as the technique I was experimenting with. But this person couldn't see past his prejudice about robots. Makes him pretty sad as an art critic, doesn't it? But that's no more idiotic than saying art with an overweight woman can't be good art just because it features and overweight woman. And perhaps it is about being threatened, or because people have to live in a fantasy world where everyone is beatiful and perfect and boring. I like the Golden Girls and Half Century Club and the overweight ladies and Gertrude and Bertha and Frank because they give variety to the graphics and let us explore something beyond the Barbie and Ken doll looks. More power to the diversity of life. I think it's a lovely thing.

I wrote that before I read the comment. [the perversity that views] "women in this condition as anything other than things to be hidden" I shudder as I even contemplate the fact that I am a "thing" fit only in my "condition" to be hidden.

I wonder if that's not the point...in so many graphics, women are treated as "things"...objects and not really as human.

It's mammalian nature. Men are territorial, and women are territory. I know that's not the "popular" view or anything that any one wants to hear in this enlightened age of total denial. But the fact is that over 2 million years of evolution has made that the law of jungle. Most of our societal ills come from us fighting our nature instead of channeling it. The objectified art is just a reflection of what we want, and we want it because there is no healthy normal direction for us to channel our desires. Some how we got locked into artificial behavior like monogamy. Add in the ever changing aesthetic of society and our new age of technological separation ... you're just asking for problems. You can't tame an animal that you're pretending doesn't exist.

Shrug it off. The world is full of idiots. Oh, and some who are not. Same rules apply here and in any other cummunity, virtual or real. :] Fish

I looked! Not a thing wrong with the image! Great job!

"Some how we got locked into artificial behavior like monogamy." whooo, my hubby would have a field day with this. LOL. Just had to say that.

'cummunity'? Oh lordy, talk about speling mizteak, lol.... (I mean my own stoopid spelling in #38) :] Fish

Wow, look at all this advertising! Opinions are alas like a**holes, everyone has one and they all stink but your own. The comment, as unappropriate as it was, was quite mild from what I have seen. If you have never been trolled before, then welcome to the club. As FishNose has stated, "Shrug it off", it can get much worst.

If you do it for the critics, you are doing it for the wrong reasons!

Mark

I like the piece a lot...overall... Perhaps the person just can't handle a real woman :) I find women with more than bones very sexy, and this subject looks pretty darn sexy to me. I also believe those that can't look at a piece for its artistic qualities and only see something as being negative or positive as relating to their beliefs need to expand their horizons a bit...although, now that I've said that, the subject matter of an image is vitally important to the overall impact to the viewer...so if one sees a work of art whose subject matter is repulsive to him, the stated comments may be forthcoming...and vice versa....

The fact is art is a statement. If you are any kind of artist, you put yourself into what you create and reflect yourself. It's probably harder to hide in a creative endeavor. You can dress a caveman up in a suit and he could probably function without notice in a modern society, but as soon as that same caveman tried to create a piece of art, his prehistoric notions would reveal themselves....such as the fact that he thinks of women as chattel instead of understanding the radical notion that women are human, and that women come in all kinds of shapes and forms and levels of intellects, just like men, and that they are not objects but creative, intellectual, sensual, living, breathing human beings...just like the guys. And, you know, people are more interesting in their variety and differences than a single stereotype repeated over and over again...both as artists and as subjects of art. I think the revelation of self artistically is rather an exciting risk...and I don't mean the bare body parts kind of excitement but rather the showing that we are more than a lump of talking cells. Men and women both have a lot to say to each other if we bothered to move past the cliches. And, fortunately, some people are willing to do that.

Well... What a to do?!?!? It's a lovely render, and ahem scuse me, but she's not THAT rubenesque! Looks like a size 16 to me! As for the negative post... I agree. That is the wrong place for that sort of comment. It's not constructuve criticism/apraisal of the artistic teqhnique used so shouldn't have been posted. Hmmm... something doing on with the thigh and hip... almost like she has a body-stocking on there. Surely she's not trying to hide some of those delicious folds!? Howard:)

I think this woman is beautiful. Her face is lovely, her skin smooth and perfect. Even for her weight, she is not dimpled nor covered with stretch marks (as I can personally attest to). A woman should never be "hidden from view". I love the gentle touches of color in the black & white, it gives her a mysterious air. If someone wants toned, teen-age appearing naked women, a subscription to Playboy is not that expensive.

Playboy needs to be renamed to Photoshop Playtime for Men or some such

fls13, perhaps I did not word that well enough to get my point across. My point is (and the reason I even opened this thread - the subjectiveness of art) as I stated above - if I had rendered the same image with a large breasted thin waisted women (my usual) the commentor would have probably commented on the image as a whole. There is a difference between "critiquing" an image and saying that heavier women should be hidden as if they are an embarassment. It's obvious the commentor intended to flame. If I find pictures of snakes distatsteful and cobra's especially I would not look at an image titled "Cobra Snake" and decide to lower the artists rating on the image solely due to the fact that they used a cobra snake. Again I don't care personally about the rating - it is just emphasis to my point. This is the second image I have posted of Maxine nude, I frankly enjoyed working with her and doing something a bit "different" than the norm here. This won't make me stop (obviously, that would be silly) in fact it will probably encourage me to do more of them. I never do anything for the "critics" except in this case; I began doing images of Maxine because of the teasing (good natured) from some of my friends that my big breasted thin waisted pinups would fall over lol. So I did Maxine as a pin-up just to show diversity and because I thought it was a great idea to show a "realistic" female form. There is a problem with the thigh at the knee area - I know and I tried to fix it but I distorted it all nasty looking. btw that is the exact thing I did expect people to comment on (the thigh) or the lighting on her torso.

LadySilverMage, your image truely is art. Don't let one ignorant viewer get ya down. Some people are just to immature to know when to hold their tounge and when to speak (oops, talking about myself agin ;) I'd like to say something more comforting but 4 hours in the dentist chair today is preventing me... Your image is truely Fine Art, don't change!

Don't let it bother you. Some of the greatest art in history was full proportioned women. I've never heard anyone of substance say negative things about da Vinci's Mona Lisa. You have some fantastic lighting there and I especially like the lighting on the hand.

oh, just forget about darkstation....obiviously, he has not met a sexy black woman, who is proud of who she is...how, she cooks...and, her power over men. if that person wants anorexic...overacheiver type...so beit. may he have tons of sexy fun with her. i liked your character. i'm working on a couple of my own..."natural figure"...and, ethnic. oh, yeah..and, just a little bit pregnant, which is very sexy. don't worry 'bout the trolls...i have been many times trolled by liftan, and, his clones...brings down the ratings, sometimes...but, heyas...controversy stirs the blood, yes?

I would ignore the comments made altogether. Some folks don't understand the addage "It is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt" ;o). In the larger scheme of things, it doesn't really matter one whit what ANYONE thinks as long as it pleases YOU and you enjoyed making it. I think what constitues art is different for everyone, but I think that art is really for the artist more than it is for the people that view it. After all, something inspired you to do it, not for anyone else but yourself. The fact that it may be viewed by others is really secondary. BTW, I liked your image. I don't find too much ugly about the human form, no matter what form it takes ;o). Laurie