First of all I must declare that I feel more and more offended by the content of the vue gallery. Perhaps this is naive but I thought this side is a forum for artists to show their work. But the content of the vue gallery - don't know how the other galleries are - is more and more filled with work of people I can't count to the artist community. Pictures without any inspiration, no artificial value, only gloryfying a worldwide very controversial discussed war. I think, every serious artist - even if he has another opinion about this war - should dissociate from this kind of hurray-patriotism. Anything else is a slap on all the peace-loving artist all over the world. Dorothea

I agree with you Doro, but we all must understand that some artists needs to express their feelings about this war in their art. You can select the genre you want to see and avoid to look at such images if you don't like it. :-)Guitta

I agree with Doro about these images they are a slap to any peace-loving human being. But I cant find a reason why I should only select a special genre I want to see every new posted picture. I dont think its a solution. I agree too with Doro, that there is nothing of artificial value in these images how should they show any emotion of the artist if you have only ugly bombers on an ugly sky? Sorting by genre is impossible because they are posted in all genres. I think there is nothing to laugh about when so called images are posted under Vue and humour. I feel with all the people in this war....

chris, where have you seen such an image in the "Vue and humor" genre please? I will change the genre then. But please open the images. there is one with 3 frogs. Only the thumbnail looks as if it was something else (LOL). Thanks. Guitta

There are two pictures by navysquid called "Race to Baghdad" and "Iraqi Resistance" Chris

Oh, they are a humorous:-).

OK, dann ist vielleicht mit meinem Verstdnis f Humor etwas nicht in Ordnung :-( Chris

Ware is sad anough:-(. I know what you mean chris, but these two images are not tasteless and they can be interpreted in several ways. I have seen worse here (but they ware deleted). Guitta

Thank you for your comment - have a good time :-) eine f heute me Chris (LOL)

Doro, and others, I've really got to wonder what you mean by the Vue gallary being a place devoid of "hurray patriotism." And I'd really like to know what you mean by patriotism being a "slap on the face of peace-loving artist." Are you saying that a patriotic artist is not allowed to post here? Or just artists that you disagree with? Political messages are no long valid forms of art? Heaven forbid, who knew Dr. Suess wasn't an artist? And I don't know what gallery you're looking at, but I'd hardly call the Vue gallery full of anything. There are plenty of pictures in the Vue gallery I find offensive, don't get me wrong, the vast majority of them are great. Even the one's that are offensive have artistic value, claiming otherwise would just be me being a snob. Propoganda art has a place. It is a valid art form, on that has been around far longer than just about any type of art concievable. From the cave man painting propaganda about the success of his hunt, art has served as a means to express messages and ideas. If you managed to get the feeling of "Hurray patriotism" from the images, then they gave you a message and, by definition, were "inspired" as well as inspiring. The fact that you disagreed with the message is irrelevant. Looking down your nose at other artist and pacing judgement on the PERSON instead of the ART is wrong. Questioning the validity of any art lessens all art. Yes, there are things about an art piece that should be judged. Composition, quality, color, tone. But content? Political message? Ideology? No. These are not to be judged by a true artist. If an artist feels moved to compose a piece on war, then it is his right. Lord knows it's at least more realistic than the "half-naked poser woman in temple" art that is easy to find in just about every gallery, including the Vue gallery, here at renderosity. This doesn't mean that Girl in Temple art is invalid, shouldn't be created or exist. It means that I've seen enough to know that as a rule, I don't care for it. I'm glad some people like it, and even more excited that others create for that desire. As for me, I'll pass. I consider myself a patriotic person. As an American, I feel a sense of pride in my country and my countrymen. I view our way of life as a wonderful source of inspiration. This doesn't mean I blindly accept whatever the powers that be tell me is the proper thing to do. I've already posted one piece of anti-war art on this site, but many took it as offensive and warmongering. That means my message failed, so I suppose my art failed. Then again, the message of all art is often in the mind of the beholder, and at least a message was created, shall I dare say inspired, into the beholders mind, so I guess it wasn't a complete failure, just a failure of motive. I guess I've gotten off the point, and to get back on it I would caution you against letting your personal views blind you to the art that is around you. If you don't like it, move on. But suggesting it has no value opens the door to others suggesting other kinds of art, perhaps art you create and/or enjoy be done away with as well. The freedom of expression is the artists greatest friend and something we should all be fighting for. It is enshrined in the American constitution, and is what allows the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore to exist and thrive in the same country. It is a concept that is young in this world, and we should be nurturing it, not ignoring it.

Another opinion, unwanted and unneeded, but what the heck. I'm not going to get into if I'm pro or con against this war. I don't think this is the place to discuss it. With everyone fighting about it outside... it would be nice to have a safe haven against people shoving opinions down my throat. As far as art goes... I believe if someone feels something and have to express it in their art then they should be able to with out risking getting slammed for it. No matter what their opinion is. (as long as legal and not child porn)) This is an art form. We get the chance to view many styles and ideas. Some we like some we don't. Move on, you'll find something you do like.

I can understand not wanting to be confronted with more reminders of war, but I think this should remain an open forum and gallery, where every member is free to post what they wish. Military hardware, patriotic themes, and war images are nothing new to the CG art community, and I don't think they should be banned or censored because they now touch a nerve due to current events. I'm sure some of the other genres common on Renderosity, especially the seemingly endless 'gothic' or 'nude' Poser compositions, have grown tiresome or offensive to many, but I'd never want to see anyone's right to post those things curtailed either.

Runwolf 13: Please read my posting again: I didn't say patriotism is bad. But this kind of patriotism I called "hurray-patriotism" is something very differant. It means the feeling of superiority or/and arrogance against others. Tell me what else it is when you denigrate a whole nation with pics called Iraqui resistance or others and you call this "humour" No, gebe, I don't think there is anything wrong with chris0815 sense for humour. Yesterday I've seen in television the faces of two american prisoners of war - childs, nearly grown up, not understanding what happens and seeing for the first time the dirty face of the war. This is reality, this is war, not the neat and clean face of war, those images I feel offended by, show us. Sorry, but I can't find anything glorious and wonderful in dying and fighting - and who else tells this is a lyer! Images showing a trivialized face of war are only good for propaganda purposes. Sorry - I'm German and we no better than other nations by bitter experience the way, this kind of advertising leads to! You call yourself a patriotic person, runwolf13. This is nothing bad as far as it means you love your country. (I love my country too without being blind for the faults of past and presence) But this becomes something really bad if you wan't to convince other people by armed force of your opinion. And the worst thing is to glorify killing and dying. No, I don't think propaganda is an acceptable kind of art.

Propaganda not an acceptable kind of art? Shall we do away with pictures of happy children and flying doves? That's propaganda.

Shall we do away with the stop smoking/drinking/vice and other pictures? That's propaganda.

Shall we do away with advertising, for dear friend that too is propaganda.

Or shall we do away with the art in your gallary, dear dear Doro? Those beautiful images you create showing love, peace and romance? For my good friend, that too is propaganda.

And just because you, Doro, don't accept something doesn't mean it isn't art. And just because you don't get the irony, maybe because it is to forgien for your culture, doesn't mean others don't see the anti-war message in the pictures you dispise.

And what exactly do you mean by telling me, an American, that you, a german, know something better than I? The germans don't have a lock on suffering or war. Before you start telling me, or anyone else, that we need not tell others that we are superior, you had best first look in the mirror.

Your view, the German view, the American view and the Iraqi view are not absolutes. I despise this war. It makes me sick to my stomach to know that two of my best friends are in the middle of this war. But I also despise what Iraq has become, a haven for torture, rape and pain where people are killed at the whim of an insane dictator.

When they came for the gypsies, I did not stand against them. When they came for the gays, I did not stand against them. When they came for the jews, I did not stand against them. When they came for me, no one stood against them. That is not peace.

Doro, I think you are a good, kind, gentle, loving person. I admire you for that, I really do. I admire you for having strong feelings. But I caution you as well. I caution you that thinking so little and so hateful of someone else and their opinion is as short sighted as you can be. If you don't like it, move on. Forget about it. Move past it. For some day it could be your art that offends. Some day it could be your religion that offends. Some day it could be YOU that is offensive. And I will stand beside you and tell them to go away.

So let me be clear... To those of you who think this war is a grand thing, you are just as foolish as grasshoppers who won't hoard food. You lack of vision will come back to haunt us all. And those of you who honestly think that talking to Saddam would have ended this crisis... you are nieve. As is all to common in these situations, the truth lies somewhere inbetween, in that murky place outside of Black and White, and very very deep in the grey.

But I'll stand up against anyone attempting to do away with the right to expression or the right to speak. Tell me war is bad, Doro. Just don't tell me, or anyone else, to shut up. You don't have that right. Hooray patriotism or not.

Doro, I respect your opinion, and you have a perfect right to it. However, others have a right to their opinions as well. That is what democracy is about, whether it's the German flavor of democracy, the US flavor, UK, or any other democratic nation. However, I take issue with your comments "But the content of the vue gallery - don't know how the other galleries are - is more and more filled with work of people I can't count to the artist community. Pictures without any inspiration, no artificial value, only gloryfying a worldwide very controversial discussed war." Because 1 or 2 people are posting images relating to the war DOES NOT mean everyone is. In fact, I'm stil seeing (and posting, myself) a lot of beautiful landscapes, seascapes and other images. So to infer that the Vue gallery is turning to some type of propaganda machine is just plain incorrect. I've seen various and sundry commentary on the war, on 11 Sep 2001, on Afghanistan, in other galleries in the past few years; those folks are fully entitled to post their images, at whatever level of skill they may be, for whatever reason they post. If it's ok to post constant pictures of women's breasts and genitals in the Poser gallery, why is it wrong to post an image, humorous or not, about a world event that someone feels strongly about? And there's a simple solution to your problem with the images some folks are putting in ANY GALLERIES, not just VUE....DON'T CLICK ON THE THUMBNAIL.

Doro said: "Sorry, but I can't find anything glorious and wonderful in dying and fighting - and who else tells this is a lyer!" I do agree with your comment Doro, but sometimes it is the only way to ensure people have the freedom to express themselves. Most of us who live in a democratic society, have only been able to experience that through the bloody and ugly sacrifice of others. Cheers

Ya, like civilian sacrifices?

I'm afraid, yes Venture...The very fact that you may be able to voice a political opinion has probably meant that civilians have probably died in the past, so that you may have that right. The problem with most people is that they take democracy for granted, and then get totally shocked when the ugly price of their freedom is brought home to them. I for one am eternally grateful to those that sacrificed themselves for my freedom...and would not change that freedom for anything. We must not also forget that many innocent civilians are also killed under oppression, just so dictators can continue to rule. In the case of Saddam Hussein, many thousands. Cheers

As I was lead to this post by someone else I think I have to say this and that ...: First of all I don't want to talk about the war going on at the moment in the Iraq. May it be right - may it be wrong - my opinion won't make a change to it anyway. War is war and war does have it's own laws and sense or maybe exactly the difference. But I have to say something about the people here talking about each other and before this continues to some more harsh I please you to stop being personal to each other - and I don't want to hear that "She/he started this all etc. " !! Renderosity - and some other places around the web - is a place to talk about art, 3D-programms or whatever belongs in that direction. If someone has the opinion an image about 'war belongs not to art' this is a statement - so we're here to discuss this - fine. It is normal that art is controversial and sometimes offending - this is also one thing about 'art'. You want examples ?? Read about 'Guernica' from Picasso for example. It is possible to bring the topic 'war' and 'art' together. The problem is: You're walking on a thin line by doing such a thing - but this should be the problem of the people who are trying to handle such a difficult image-topic - finally the comments at their images will show if they reach our hearts or not (in what direction however). I learned in my life that 'repect' is one of the most important things a human being should have - Respect for other people - respect for animals - respect for many things. Think about your words - not once - not twice - if necessary three or more times - and if you said something wrong - correct yourself. In a Forum you've only your written word to tell the others what you want to say - and the other person does only have his/her interpretation of what anotherone have written - this could and this does lead to misinterpretations - especially when English is not your motherlanguage. We're all artists or interested in artist - we share all the same interests here - so, work together, not against each other.

Guys and gals, Please remember art IS in the eye(s) of the beholder. Just as art IS biased via emotions, feelings, and current affairs (Which we all have those emotions and feelings over). Now as far as propaganda goes: Propaganda - The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause Art is a reflection of views and interests as well, just a more graphical means than an informational doctrine. Still does that make it right .. some say yes some say no. Thats for each of use to decide and if you don't want to view it ... Rosity provided thumbnail views .. if the thumbnail isn't what ya want to see don't click it. Now As I see it, while some of the "propaganda type" images are not as artistic as some others may deem. The Statue of liberty images show beauty. Another showed a try for humor. While I didn't find it all that funny, I don't disdain or attack the member on it. It was perhaps their attempt to calm some peoples worrying. We all have different quirks, I will guarentee some things I find humorous others might find disgusting. Horror/Gore films at that. Not one out there I don't laugh because of. While to some aesthetics is what depicts art... to others art is in the scope of what lies before them. I guess the main thing I am trying to get across is this. If ya don't like it, don't view it. And please, don't start a fire fight or war of words in the forums about them. All that will happen will tempers get fired, ppl get banned for saying their veiws, etc.. All of which kills communities. Trust me I know as I have seen quite a few fall because of just that. Dan

OK lets go back. I dont like at all the way, this discussion goes. I never intended to start a political discussion my prime importance was to declare how I was disgusted by really primitive made images. Take a standard vue sunset sky, put one or three objects into the picture look for a name with actual importance and render it. Now you can be sure that there are some guys out there who cheer this work as a masterpiece of art. I dont believe this is the way the voting system of Renderosity was intended to work. Not the image is important in this moment, only the opinion those so called artists will spread. This is only propaganda, this is no art. There are a lot of serious artists here in the community who work hard to show us really good images no matter what the subject of the image is. I personally make no difference between the subjects I prefer and the subjects other artists choose. When I see the inspiration and the work they invested in their images, its ok for me. To say this clear to avoid more misunderstandings: If someone wants to show a triumphant American soldier on a mountain of Iraqi corps and he makes this with his heart this is ok for me no matter what my opinion is. The other way and we should not forget that there are a lot of serious artists from the Arabian world - its also ok when someone wants to show the same mountain with American corpses and a triumphant Iraqi soldier. This is my understanding of liberty in art but it must be art not only cheap propaganda. If you have a look on the last pieces in the vue galleries you see some really ugly examples. There is a statue of liberty floating over a terrain which is set without any recognizable reason over (!) a water plane. Now this is finished with a standard Vue sky and rendered. Completed is this composition with a really kitschy poem and then posted in Vue and surrealism. The only surrealism I can recognize is the inability of the artist to control the standard functions of Vue. He should learn much more about this program before he posts images. A friend of mine who was banned for seven days from Renderosity because he made a harsh comment to one of those images made a deleted comment to this thread. Because he cant do this at the moment, Ill show you some parts of his opinion: There is a large difference between making propaganda for love, peace and romance - or making propaganda for killing peoples in other countries. I have seen propaganda-images of this kind up to now, only in states with a totalitarian regime. Yes, I agree with you, propaganda can be a part of an art. But doing this needs much fine feeling and should be done by peoples with the basic knowledge and founded suitable training. Intelligent humans, who live outside of the USA, feel this kind of Patriotism as unnecessary and not worthy for the American population. I can only endorse this opinion lets go back to judging an image by his artistic worth and not for glorifying a dirty war! Dorothea

"how should they show any emotion of the artist if you have only ugly bombers on an ugly sky?" - "Take a standard vue sunset sky, put one or three objects into the picture look for a name with actual importance and render it". I think that is very unfair. I know the artist who did the Suhoi. He did that aircraft as it is a very challenging and interesting design to him. He is not an American or a patriot and not glorifying war. He is just an aviation hobbyist who loves aircraft. If you browse his gallery, most of his images are aircraft which he modelled himself. The praise he got was not for the Vue render but for modelling the aircraft on which he worked quite sometime. The image itself was a WIP as the model is not even finished yet. You import the Daz mouse and your picture is ART but his is not? Emotion-less? You should hear him explaining about aircraft with passion! Just because aircraft are/were used in wars??? Than take all the swords and guilotines and other torture and execution stuff out of the galleries and the store!

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As to the type of art posted in the galleries - As long as the Artist's artwork does not break the TOS - all levels of artists are welcome to post images in the galleries!

If an image does not violate Renderosity's TOS it can be posted, no matter the content nor the level of artistic ability!

We are asking that all comments left under images be directed to the Artwork!

If you feel you must voice your political views please do not post them in the Art Galleries or in the Software Forums - That is why we have the OT forum

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Message from Renderosity (see above link)
We understand that this time of conflict is a tense one for many of our members. War is a sensitive issue for everyone and we want to treat all members with equal respect.

We are seeing more political images being uploaded, more gallery comments and more threads about the war in the forums. Many of these express strong opinions and as a result communications can potentially become quite heated.

During this time, we will more closely monitor the art gallery, gallery comments, and forum posts with war as the subject.

You can help by being sensitive to the opinions and feelings of others during this time by:

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We will follow our TOS and remove any of the above that violate it.

We ask you to remember that this is a place for artists to come together, regardless of cultural and national affiliations, to learn and share from one another. It will be even more important to help keep the peace here, where we will need it the most in the times to come.

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The problem with most people is that they take democracy for granted, and then get totally shocked when the ugly price of their freedom is brought home to them. (Cheers, 2003:03:27) You speak of democracy as a Colin Powell adress; though to you it may seem paradise to live in a democracy, there are those that would disagree - you naturally get to enjoy many liberties and securities that a dictatorship would not, but these liberties are double-edged swords; you enjoy them, but so does every psychopath and criminal. Additionally, with the ready availability of firearms, which are ironically supposed to be a defence, but rather become a threat all in themselves. And frankly, I find it difficult to respect a people who ok the production of additional bombs, as long as they are used only for peaceful, constructive purposes. I don't think I have to even start about "freedom fries"...

Propaganda not an acceptable kind of art? Shall we do away with pictures of happy children and flying doves? That's propaganda. Shall we do away with the stop smoking/drinking/vice and other pictures? That's propaganda. Shall we do away with advertising, for dear friend that too is propaganda. (runwolf13, 2003:03:27) 1. Happy children and white doves are not art, they're images that appeal to (mostly) parents - it's human nature to protect children and rejoice when they smile. 2. Why not do away with the cigars and drinks altogether? 3. I can't possibly imagine any, horrible, person that could enjoy that suspenseful-moment-interrupting-crap.

"You speak of democracy as a Colin Powell address" Maybe because we both come from a military background ;o) Although I admit that democracy is far from perfect, I feel that it's the best form of political self expression that the Human Race has discovered so far. "Additionally, with the ready availability of firearms, which are ironically supposed to be a defence, but rather become a threat all in themselves." Ahhhh, I take it you are from the US. Here in the UK firearms are banned from the public (to all intent and purposes), even for defence. Cheers

"Ahhhh, I take it you are from the US." If I was from the US.....I would have been taking a dirt nap a long time ago.