I don't understand the purpose of this, if the freestuff is hosted by Renderosity then can be some sense, but there are only links. I can post a link to some page, get the link aproved and then I can change my page contents any time I wish, the link to Renderosity remains the same, but the contents are variable!

kawecki that is really clever. I never even thought of that. You are right. This whole thing is pointless. Amazing to know that there is a perfect;y simple way to by pass the whole thing if you want to cheat. Thanks. you really saved us alot of time by thinking we might actually be able to protect anyone. Wow that was foolish. Well if Renderosity sees it this way too that sure will kill the idea. Guys don't ever take up grief conseling.

kawecki's idea works in theory but I don't see that it has much in the way of real practical application. Let's see ... suppose I want to distribute a character I made. I make two versions. One has a custom texture I made all on my own, the other has a ripped-off Daz texture. I post the first version on my site and submit a link here. Then once it's approved, I switch files on my site so that the zip file contains the second version with the rogue texture. Derr ... why would I bother? Unless I was evilly motivated and specifically wanted to rip off Daz out of sheer mischief, I can't see much point in the above procedure. Having gone to the bother of making a correct version, I wouldn't get any benefit from switching it with a bad one. Incidentally, there is another addition to the innocent excuses - "I thought it was public domain". I've seen so many characters come with Tim Lauerbach textures, some credited and with permission, most not. Presumably many people reckon these things have been kicking around for so long that they are now freely reusable. Particularly if they got them second hand and not from Tim's site. Similarly with many Posette morphs which are in general circulation but presumably started off from the hands of Trav or Jaager.

Honestly, sometimes I really want so smack my head against a wall. We've done this to try and make the freestuff area better with less problems with popups, porn links, links to pages where you have to go wading to find the files. Why is it that every time we try to improve things, to make the whole Rendie experience better, it gets thrown back at us as 'the downfall of Renderosity'. Very melodramatic, very attention grabbing I'm sure. For those of you who've shown your support, sincerest thanks for realising that our intentions are good. For those who are knocking, come up with some ideas of your own that might help. Thank you, Kevin. Rant off.

well umm I may be a little new to all this but what strikes me here is isnt it possible by doing this Rosity if effectivly putting itself first in the fireing line from irate merchants and creaters etc if their stuff should show up in the Rosity approved or varified links? As was mentioned above its a simple matter to change the original file on the host server. I dont have any issue with it being done it would atleast weed out unintentional mistakes etc,just thinking you might be handing yourself up for some greif later.

LMAO WOW...we need to move this to Geneva or something.

First, Lyrra, thanks so much for answering my question. Was just worried that links to a site rather than a file would not be approved.
Second, Im all for this measure. I dont mind waiting at all, if its protecting my stuff and if it protects others. I havent had anything pirated yet but then Im just getting into the "giving back" process.

Well Ill hush now. I have a Dew Catcher to finish.

Machine claw- its way different than dealing with airport security. That is the possible problems of life and death, where as in the freestuff, at worse it's piracy. Most of the people arent complaining with the system itself, but with possible misuse. Remember when SteffyZZ was making claims against other artists for stealing her work, yet analysis showed it wasn't? Well, if it comes down to a free thing and a marketplace item (or even a DAZ one), who do you think the admins and mods are gonna back up? Phantast - actually its quite simple, and not bothersome to do it. I've seen it happen before in other communities. People will slap together a two second texture (ala paint bucket fill in PSD or PSP), then as soon as its up, they'll switch it out so they can be made to look good when they really don't have the skill. Many people out there do it, because they are wannabe's. Anyone who deals with game mod's knows about it, because its a big problem there. I'm on the developement team for a 3d racing game, and we allow outside people to submit models, but so far we've had more copied work than original and that's why we now inspect each model individually (to compare against thousands of other models, 3rd party or not) and host it ourselves. That is something I know renderosity doesn't want to do

But at least if someone pulls a switch after posting there will be no possibility of their claiming innocence.

Anron - that bi-lingual copyright notice - can we all use that?? It's a great idea - even in a readme file! Frankly I think it's a good idea - my only concern is how does the tester/s know copyright infringement when they test it?? There is no way they can know all the products out there it's not feasible. As for body texture theft - why not just purchase SilverLeifs textures to use as a base or for various parts or partner with someone?? Seems a lot easier than ruining one's reputation by stealing.

oops that should read "Anton"

If you guys would stop for a moment and re-read what Kawecki is saying, he raises a good point. The freebies are just links to something off-site, either a file or a download page. So Rsity checks on item at someone's site, approves the page link, and everything's fine. But then the owner of the page adds some new stuff that Rsity doesn't check because it never sees it because the page owner figures "Hey the link was approved; why bother?" Now, sure, it's 90+% likely that the owner of the page isn't going to be ripping anyone off (Heck, for all the freebies uploaded, how many are "derivatives"?), but the possibility still exists. But this is like the question I raised earlier: who has the intimate knowledge of the complete catalogue of Poser materials that will allow him to say whether or not something is completely original? God help the mod given this assignment, because the potential for overlooking something seems enormous.

just a quick question, (people have hashed the copyright issue to death... thanks for taking a stand on that) Actually, I'm wondering something else. What constitutes a porn link or an adult site? Some of my artwork isn't stuff I would post here, and I have my freebies on the same server. Its MY site, I manage and pay for it, nobody gets popups they don't want to see. Do I have to move my freebies if I post any adult artwork on other parts of my own website, even though nobody would see it by simply downloading my freebies? just wondering?

Nevertheless, the proposed vetting WILL get rid of links that go to unfriendly places, as Kevin points out above. And it may even weed out 100 reposts of "red texture for Kozaburo's Alice hair". So the procedure certainly has value. And as RHaseltine says, anyone pulling a switch is definitely guilty without hope of excuse, and these guys always get detected eventually. LadySilverMage - I'm sorry, but that copyright notice is copyright.

Bijouchat, if it is your own site, that you pay for, you should be able to link directly to the zip files on your server, and no-one can possibly object to that. It's links that send you to a page of an adult site that are not allowed, AFAIU.

Why "approve" a free item? To avoid "copyright violations" or to "micro-manage"? If an item is in violation of a copyright, someone tells an admin, there is a public witchhunt and the item is removed. And, no, the site is not "covering their butts". According to ditigal copyright rules, the site assumes that people are following the rules. The site only has a responsibility to remove an item when someone else claims that it's already copyrighted. If a site does not know that the item is copyrighted, but removes it upon notice of copyright, then they should be clear. However, if an item gets approved and THEN there is a copyright claim on it, the site becomes liable. For example, "You approved the Enterprise-E mesh your Free Stuff section. What do you mean you didn't know it's against Paramount's copyright rules to redestribute meshes of their ships? You mean your mod missed that? Well, what else did he miss? I'll see you in court." People have brought up other good points: will the new mod be able to keep up with approving the stuff? If he goes on vacation, sure, someone else can fill in for him, but what if his computer goes down and he can't approve stuff? Days turn into weeks and the people start to feel like vendors- they upload stuff and it takes weeks to get approved. Of course, people aren't losing revenue like the vendors, but stuff, when people don't see their free stuff posted for 5, 8, or 10 days, they get frustrated. And the worst thing for a website is to have frustrated users. And will the mod be researching every single item to make sure it's not a "derivative" of an item from DAZ, 3dcafe, scifi-mesh, or any other mesh/ texture sites? What if someone converts a 3ds object from a 3D Studio Max site and uploads it (without permission from the original creator)? Will the mod catch this? How will he know? Seems like a lot of work to me.

To get to the point, though: Why wait at all? Since all you're uploading to the Free Stuff is a "pointer" to the files on your own website, here's what you do: 1) Upload the file to the Free Stuff section. It will get approved whenever (depending on the size of the queue and such). 2) Post a message (with a large render of the item) to this forum, telling people that your item is now available on your website. Include a link to YOUR SITE (download page or the item itself), instead of the usual "Now in the Free Stuff section". (Incidentally, the graphic that you attach to your message post IS hosted here on Renderosity, unlike your Free Stuff thumbnail image, which is hosted on your site.) Alternatively, you could post a message here in the forum (again, with an image) saying that your item is available at 3D Commune or wheverer else. Make sure you include a link to the item. By the time your item is approved, everyone will have already have downloaded it from the link you provided in the Poser Forum. Of course, you can also post a second message (with an image, if you want) telling people that the item has been approved. In other words: Message Post 1: new item at my site (image and link to website) Message Post 2: (when item is approved) new item in Free Stuff (image and link to Free Stuff section) Message Post 3: (a few weeks later) look, I've reposted my item again (image and link to either website or Free Stuff section). This means that the this Poser FORUM becomes the place to upload links to free stuff (complete with large renders of the item)... and the Poser Free Stuff section dies away due to the "approval process".

Just to put the delay into perspective: there are currently zero items queued for approval. That means that in the first day of operation, all items were checked and approved within 24 hours. Kev.

Porn site - it depends on the pictures on the site. If you're not sure, IM one of us the link so we can take a look. My opinion on that situation would be if you have the freebies on a page that is not seriously adult in nature (including any banners) and if you have a warning on the page that other parts of the site are adult in nature, it ought to be okay, but I'll also ask the other mods and admins to see if we can get a more definitive policy on that. Cheers!

thanks, yes I will have disclaimers on the adult portions of my site, I just want to know what I'm allowed to do and if I have to move my links. :) mostly the stuff is really soft, its not totally there yet, but I want a definitive answer before discovering I could have a problem. :)

phantast, yes its my own site. they wont see banners or popups, I hate those things and I don't subject people to them either. I can very easily move the freebie to another domain name, its just a pain as I would have to move the free links at several sites and honestly that's not something I really look forward to doing. Nobody is going to see adult artwork unless they're actively looking for it. And if they're actively looking for it, they're going to hit content disclaimers first. (and it says a lot more about the people searching for "naughty pictures" than about my innocent minoan pottery freebie lol...)

Some comments: If someone wants to put copyright or warez material is more easy for him to put it at Kazaa or Gnutella p2p networks and not at Renderosity. So I start with a premisse that there are not bad intentions: Many of the freestuff has links to pages with many items. In these pages there are many freestuff, links, galleries that are changed within time, items are added, new pictures are added, maybe some can be of adult content! So the situation remains the same, with the new freestuff politics or with the old one. Another question is if member X have ripped a texture or copied a mesh of member Y, how the tester will know this? So, probably he will aprove the item and some time later member Y will discover his material and then Caleb will have a great headache! (I prefer to be in Bagdhad than being a tester).

"Remember when SteffyZZ was making claims against other artists for stealing her work, yet analysis showed it wasn't?" Uh...no, I actually don't. I've proven three times on Renderosity alone that people were indeed stealing her material and using it in both free and commercial textures. I asked JenyK to do this exact thing for Marketplace items a long time ago, and she basically told me that it was impossible. How could only a few people on Renderosity know every inch of every popular texture, model, and morph so well as to be able to recognize it before it gets posted? And as far at that theory goes, she was right. Why should it suddenly work now? I feel for Anton, but I think a more effective way would simply to be to temporarily pull a free or Marketplace item IMMEDIATELY whenever someone can provide any evidence of infringement and then examine it more carefully. When someone made a goof and thought that my Vickybuster infringed on a DAZ texture, it was gone before I knew what hit me...so I know you guys can work fast when you have to. ;) Anyway, just my thoughts as always. Take care. SnowS

its more easy for real warezers, but they lose the bragging rights value, kawecki. real warezers aren't looking for bragging rights on renderosity, they just want to redistribute software that they couldn't otherwise afford easily. I can live with that ethic, though it may hurt me. people that trade at kazaa know they are trading warez and keep themselves undercover. They aren't claiming they created the warez, they are just trading them. the situation is very different here. here people want to brag they created something cool, its nothing more or less than playing popularity games. some people here are truly talented and generous and make all kinds of freebies, and these people are well respected and liked here, for good reason. some people are envious of that kind of reputation and take the shortcut, by taking a mesh/texture already made, and manipulating it so they can claim they created it, and be the grand poobah without really working at it. you're very right in that its not warezing like that done on kazaa. I have more respect for the real pirates on kazaa, ftp sites and bbs's... they are working within their conscience... I understand their reasoning though we may not all agree with it. but freestuff social climbers... they don't get the same level of respect from me as the hackers do. c'est la vie. deal with it.

Because Renderosity is checking all freestuff uploads they can now guarantee to me that everything I download from freestuff is (1)legal to use (2)free of virii Correct? Or are they just checking for DAZ stuff?

its probably to take out the more obvious problem freestuff... people that link to aggressive popup or porn sites is a huge problem. I ran into that a few times, with gator and other assorted crap trying to install. If Rendo takes care of just that, I'm really happy HAPPY happy H A P P Y for it. ;-) but yeah, I'm sure they will check for the more obvious warezed items, but I doubt they can check for all of it, not even all of Daz... its just too much stuff. They'll have to rely on complaints from artists I'm sure.

Lyrra's said it, I've said it, so now I'll say it again. This all comes from the Free Stuff pages: "If you must link to a web page due to the nature of your ISP/hosting service, the FREE content MUST appear on the same page that is being linked to in the Free Stuff gallery entry." So we'll be checking that the link doesn't take you to somewhere where you have to go hunting for the freebie. "By providing a link to a Free Stuff item, you are representing that you are the sole owner of the intellectual property being offered. You agree to indemnify Bondware Inc. in any dispute which may arise regarding products that you offer through this site." So, as before, the onus is on the provider of the freebie. Simply by uploading you are telling us that it's yours to give away. If it turns out otherwise, i.e. we get a complaint on it, it'll be removed. We can't verify the authenticity of every linked freebie submitted. It would be beyond any site or organisation to do that. "We reserve the right to delete links to content and websites that we deem unsuitable for this community and its Terms of Service." So, no porn site links and any other type of site that would result in the link being pulled anywhere else on the site. "The links MUST BE TO FREE ITEMS. Any links found to non-free content will be immediately deleted." Nothing new here. "The content being linked to in this Free Stuff gallery has not been tested by Renderosity. Before opening any of these files, observe the usual precautions regarding files obtained from the Internet. We cannot guarantee, and will take no resposiblity for losses and/or damage caused to your computer due to use of any of these Free Stuff items. " So no, we're not guaranteeing that it's virus free. We can't do that, for just the reasons that kawecki mentioned above. "Renderosity does not host, or test, or in any way sanction or endorse these files/links but is providing this link database as a service to our members. " So it's just that. A database of links to free items. But it's a database of links that won't lead you to a porn site and won't require you to wade through a website to find the freebie. That's what we're trying to do. Kevin.

So, then, even by doing all this work Renderosity cannot guarantee to me that anything I download from freestuff is (1)legal to use (2)free of virii? Seems to me that since the checking is happening, that Renderosity should be legally responsible for the above now. No?

sigh No. I think what I said is clear enough.

damn, spit... do they have to bang it into your head? They are ONLY checking the validity of the freestuff links, they aren't testing freestuff for anything.

That was crossposted. I wrote mine before I saw Kbennet's.

hey guys, :| i didn't read all your posts, wow, lotta bad bits in here. we wanna make sure the links are valid for one, lotta bad links been posted lately. two we wanna make sure the files where there linking to, so the member doesn't have to search through a site for a half-n-hour just to try to find the freebie three - if the freebie is clearly a copyrighted product, then it won't end up in freebies. Mostly this is to help the members in the long run. I know i've downloaded some freebies here recently that were clearly a copyright issue. its not going to be anything like the marketplace testing process, thought that might clear even more up, its not being put that far.

OK Spit, sorry.

I think alot of people have gotten out of hand about this. From what I understand it's just a quick check to make sure the link works, and that the file is what it says. If you're submitting a freestuff item, and have to wait a day or two for it to be posted, what's the big deal? Most people aren't even going to notice. But I do have a suggestion for this, which would make extra work for freestuff contributors. Not a lot, mind you. Check to see if the readme file is named readme.txt. If so, let the poster know, and have them change it to something related to their product. That's one big beef I have with freestuff. Anyway, just a suggestion.

i got started in that habbit of doing that, naming my readme's like 'thisproduct_readme.txt' there is a problem though, if its over 32 chars it won't show the full name for mac users.

We'll do the best we can to catch warezed items and virii, but we can't guarantee we'll catch everything. We're not perfect, nor do we claim to be. We'll do the best we can to get free stuff approved and posted up in a timely manner. This system should help stop people who knowingly rip off others and to catch newbies who don't know the rules. When we catch a problem item, we can work with the uploader to get the issue resolved in a fair manner. It will help stop abuse of the system by people who force downloaders to wade through pages of ads to get to the freebie listed. (If someone changes the page after the freebie is posted to scam the system, please IM us so we can deal with it.) This is not being done just for DAZ, or just for Rendie merchants, etc. It is being done for everyone. We really are trying to make this as easy as possible while protecting people's rights and reputations. If anyone has suggestions to make this system work better, please let us know. Thanks!

will it stop the repeat posters? Like the kind soul who insists on reposting his textures every other day.

hopefully

"If you must link to a web page due to the nature of your ISP/hosting service, the FREE content MUST appear on the same page that is being linked to in the Free Stuff gallery entry." So does that mean that I can't link to the FRONT page on my website? You see, the downloads are divided into categories and the way my site's layout is made it is not practical (though of course possible) to link to this specific sub-page where the specific download is. I prefer to have people coming in thru my front door and not thru the window :o) But it looks like it's not allowed? Oh and btw it seems my site is down right now, so don't bother looking at it :o( I HAVE contacted the host.

Hey... I got a nice one. While we're updating the system... how bout a history file in our R'osity account. If you download something once it would tell you, no need to DL it again. Save bandwidth the hosts end. Drive space on the users end if he lost the file. I would also like to see more of a description, and preview renders. I mean... since you're changing things anyway why not make them a WHOLE LOT better? Might go a long way toward calming the disgruntled too. There would be an obviouse benefit tot he changes as well as the minor drawback of a wait. The free stuff should work almost the same as the marketplace, but with all links being external.

Well... At my site - which is in english, there is NOTHING but downloads. Only categorized. Sorry if you have clicked on something that belongs to me.

So all you're doing is checking links? That's cool, but how does that help people like Anton with a copyright infraction? There's still gonna be the massive number of downloads before anyone's the wiser. How many of the mods d/l'd the original Joyelle before finding out it was a rip-off? Not being a pain in the ass here, but just want to understand how this deals with DAZ's problems. Isn't that what sparked all this in the first place?

ernyoka - im checking on that, my site itself is also broke into sectional area's for the downloads, while i could easily make it direct to it buy building a new page frontend for the freebies sections it may just be simpler just to link to simple page and supply a link back to main site.

were checking both Joey, however some are pretty easy to tell there not a copyright issue. Others on the hand that we feel may be a potential copyright issue we check out the contents of the freebie before aproving/denining them. We also tell you why the freebie was denied if it gets denied.

Please, before you all start deciding that there is a mythical 3 day lag ...give us a week to show how fast we move on this, ok? It hasn't even been 3 days since this was changed rolls eyes honestly people, give us a chance, okay? Lyrra

"Uh...no, I actually don't. I've proven three times on Renderosity alone that people were indeed stealing her material and using it in both free and commercial textures" If that's so, then how come in some cases, several people (including myself) compared the textures, and found that the accused weren't stealing the textures? I remember the one I checked against, the accused's texture was put together using photos of herself (and very evident that it was just pasted together, no real work outside of that), while steffy's was heavily worked over with paintbrush and blur tools.

The problem is that by the time the item is pulled all the damage has already occured. Most recent one had 1400 downloads in under 48 hours. So simply removing them when you see them isn't working. It is not as simple as "When you see it just pull it". By then it is too late...way too late. Do you really think there would be a fuss if it was just that easy.

"If that's so, then how come in some cases, several people (including myself) compared the textures, and found that the accused weren't stealing the textures?" I still don't remember that, but perhaps that was one of the times when Stefy didn't ask me to do a comparison. Anyway, this thread isn't really about that, I was just clarifying that Stefy's worries have usually been justified. Anton, I agree that it's usually too late to stop the damage once an item has been in Free Stuff for a day or so. I just think that it will continue to be you who points out such infringements, not anyone here. Regardless of what this new policy will do, I doubt it will really play a part in reducing texture theft (unless Caleb and the others have been studying some texture maps REALLY carefully). ;) I think that honest members publically pointing out these sorts of infringements will still be an important part towards reducing this problem. Take care. SnowS

Sigh. I think the issue here is that staff keeps insisting that this is just to check links while others keep mentioning copyrighted materials. Frankly if you are opening any of the files to check them then you are implying that you have cleared them of copyright infringements to those who download them. If as staff keeps saying you are only checking links to prevent abuse then there would be no need to actually open a file. Knowing that staff will be opening files is an implicit guarantee. Furthermore no one can make a declaration of copyright infringement except the original creator - nor do you have the right to question the legality of the usage. Example (I've used before): When I released my package "Secret's of Victoria" at DAZ it was accepted, a few days after it's release I got a polite letter from Reva with a reminder to insure that trademarks were not violated, se did not accuse me of anything. Had she accused me of a violation that would have been a problem, had she pulled my product it would have been an unfair business practice resulting in the loss of sales. I had already contacted Victoria's Secret and received their ok on the product and was able to provide her with the name of my contact there in case she had any doubts. DAZ of course had no way of knowing that, but they also could not accuse me of wrong doing. Equally I see Winnie the Pooh and Jonathon Bowser work all over the place. These would seem like infringements of copyright. I don't however have the right to accuse anyone, I don't hold the copyright. In fact I do hold permission letters from Jonathon Bowser to use his work in specific types of web graphics - as do others. There is simply no way the free stuff mods can know all the copyright materials or who has permission to use what. I released a character a few years ago as a freebie using a re-worked free texture from Jade_NYC. I had her permission to do so but a free stuff mod here wouldn't know that. There are also now several body textures for sale and free where the end user has the right to create free or for sale textures with them. Now should the tester see half a dozen similar textures from different creators they will question the copyright when in fact these items are all legally licensed. Anton keeps talking about testing for copyright infringement to prevent the downloads from occuring from the start. But that won't work everytime, nor according to staff is it the intention of the "testing". Every item won't be checked so there will still be slip-ups and things will sneak through. My point to this is that Renderosity doesn't really have the right to make a copyright infringement "claim" on anyone's work. They may remove it when a complaint is filed with them while it is investigated but they must not "assume" that a violation has occured. It is often common practice to "Suspend" something immediately upon receipt of a copyright complaint. That is in the legalities at 3DA. We use the following: "Any artist believed to be in violation of Copyright laws will be given 15 days to prove ownership, during this time their items will be placed on hiatus. 3-D Arena and it's above mentioned affiliates may not be held responsible for any loss of revenues during this time. Either party in a copyright dispute may request an appeal within 7 days to prove that they do indeed hold the copyright to the item/s in question. A decision will be made by the administrators at 3-D Arena within 5 days of the appeal. This decision is final in regards to 3-D Arena, it is not a valid claim of ownership outside of this domain." Generally this system works.

I think the idea is a good one. Think about it. How many times do we see complaints about pop-ups in freestuff? Or pages where you have to "join" before you can even see the downloads? And then there's that guy who uploaded a file that when downloaded, gave access to your hard drive? This will solve all that. And anything that looks suspicious, such as a Daz texture, can be spotted quicker. It won't guarantee that something won't slip by but it's something at least.
As for the concern over the time it may take to be approved, it's a free item. How important is it that it's up the day you upload or the next day?

Anyway, I support the effort.

"There are also now several body textures for sale and free where the end user has the right to create free or for sale textures with them. Now should the tester see half a dozen similar textures from different creators they will question the copyright when in fact these items are all legally licensed." This is a good point. Catharina Harders, for one, licenses her textures to other artists. I can name nearly a dozen textures in the Marketplace that legally, under a licensed right, use her "Anna Marie" or "Sara" as a base. I've also seen very basic painted Vicki and V3 texture maps being given away as freebies, with their creator's permission to use them as a starting point to make other free textures.

Dmentia also has a base texture that allows distribution. But if a base is used, credit should be posted either on the texture or in the readme anyway.