Sorry, but I still would have to go with a critique forum, not a gallery genre, although I still wouldn't mind an icon and/or text in the comment box of people who wanted a certain type of comment. Believe me, critique forums do get traffic. Then after your pic has been critiqued to death, you can always post in the gallery. I really do think that the line should not be blurred in the galleries as to what wants to be critiqued and what people think should be critiqued. There is enough of that already. Let us not forget as well Tuttle, that changes made here affect everyone, so the question is not whether you would use such a forum, the question is, would people use it in general...

Course, honestly, I still don't see why one can't just request in bold letters, which seems to work very well, what they want their comments to be...

ShadowWind

BTW, the gallery is not inherently set up for this. On the contrary. The gallery commenting system doesn't allow for two way communication and honestly most people just comment and never go back. I would venture to say that the comment system was designed for some small suggestions, not threads on how the art can be improved. If I wanted critique, I'd want to have an open forum which I could interact with those that are critiquing me, find out why they thought this or that was wrong, discuss how I could make it better, etc. It's what goes on in the individual forums right now. The other advantage to a forum is that other people can read through it and learn from what is said about other people's images. To use a previous example, if someone said to you or whoever about the flickering candle there, another artist who may not have known that would also learn from it, rather than going to your gallery to see the comment made.

Again, this is something for everyone we are discussing, not just one or two artists personal preference. Honestly, I'd suggest they do some market research before any decision is made either way...

Lets melt all these constructive ideas into a solid concept
Critique Forum

1. critique genre [this is optional and just a suggestion]

a. artwork to be critiqued are posted under this genre

b. when artwork is finished with its critique artist can use the gallery edit function to place artwork in its appropriate genre

1. a thumbnail of the critique image is posted in a thread with a link to the actual Image. No Images posted within the thread. The thumbnail will give members an idea of the image to be critiqued - the thread to the gallery image will keep the Forum from being bogged down

2. Critiques are for Renderosity Gallery Images Only
   to avoid links to images off-site that may violate Renderosity's TOS

3. If your image has nudity it must be stated in the thread subject line

4. All images to be critiqued must follow the TOS

5. All members who offer critiques must follow the TOS [no trolling allowed]

6. Only constructive critiques of artwork will be permitted.

a. Forum will be tightly monitored [any trolling comments will be deleted]

b. This does not mean you have to like the artwork however you do have to be considerate and constructive in your comments.

1. Comments will be directed towards artwork This will not be a place for members to voice their non-art views ie: going off on a political tangent

a. Critiquing artwork objectively using the Seven Elements of Art: value, line, shape, form, color, space/perspective and texture.

1. Group of members who would like to help out with the forum to keep the forum on track.

2. We can have a backroom:

a. Art Vocabulary Terms
one reason members do not critique art is that they are unsure of the art terms
below is Renderositys Graphic Dictionary more terms can be added
[http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewLink=423]

b. How To guides on critiquing artwork
Either off-site links to critiquing artwork or members can write their own Art Critique tutorials

Ok - this is a starting place. Let me know what you think :)
ladynimue

Seems reasonable to me. I don't think it has to be limited to WIP (which ladynimue did not say but was mentioned earlier in the thread). Whether or not the graphic is changed is always up to the artist, and their creative choices should be respected whether or not we agree with them. It could be an opportunity for the Renderosity galleries to mature in its art without denying beginners a place to get started. But perhaps before the formation of the forum, there could be sn invitation to discuss this on the other forums. I don't know how representative the people on this thread are of general feelings about this. There may be no interest. There may be a lot of interest. It's hard to tell. I have to say that all the suggestions to add click boxes, and flags, and filtering on the gallery overlook the fact that we can already do much of this now. For example, we can filter on the gallery...by category, by genre, by what's new, by artists we prefer. I would rather we didn't get bogged down in making choices that are redundancies in a system rather than actually making an improvement in it. You can add all the redundancies you want but the more you add, the less likely the general viewer is to use them. Keep it simple is the best rule almost always.

How about this Dee? We don't have a critique genre, but all pictures are uploaded to the standard gallery genres wherever they would be. Then if you want extra critique, you can post a link/thumbnail into the critique forum to get people to critique your work. BTW, thumbnails in the critique forum really aren't going to do much good unless programming can find a way to include the thumbnail in the thread list rather than inside the thread, because you will still have to open each thread to see what the picture is.

I'll go with whatever the majority wants, but a critique genre in the galleries causing lots of trouble for both people who want it and people who don't want it (but some person thinks they do). I still remember comments that people should go back to beginner, which can be disheartening. I can just imagine what this will bring.

I'm all for everything in your list but the actual class distinction in the gallery of critique or not (even an icon in the comment box to remind people that this is a critiqued image).

I agree with dialyn, that this should be expanded to the people in the galleries so they can give their comments rather than a few of us making the decision for them.

ShadowWind

Ok - how about this caveat :) Critiques of the images in the Critique Forum are to be made within the "Critique Forum Image Thread Only"- Not within the Gallery Comment Section This will eliminate the need for a critique genre, as well as not creating additional gallery comments (which may or may not pretain to the image once the work is critiqued and the image re-edited). As to the thumbnails and link to the image (as mentioned above by catlin_mc) - I still think this is the best way to go. If you spilt your screen (opening a window with the Image and window in the Critique Forum) You can still view the image, yet still comment within the Critique Forum :) ladynimue

Sounds like a plan to me ladynimue...

Sounds good to me too ladynimue, I would vote for it...

Thanks everyone - Renderosity appreciates your feedback :) ladynimue

This sounds fine, but there is still the problem that people on dial-up couldn't view every thread in order to see the thumb (unless they have a lot of spare time :)). For me to open every thread on a forum page would take about 20 minutes of loading time - no joke! Unless there could be a way of displaying thumbs against forum posts without having to enter the thread (it must be pretty easy?) then with the best will in the world, it would be no use to people with slow connections. <:|

Well, I posted an image yesterday asking for "real" feedback and I was pleasantly surprised that people are taking the time to really look at the image. It's clear that some people had improvements in mind but would probably have been too polite to write them unless they had been specifically asked. A few said the image was OK as it was, but this is just as useful because that's their true opinion rather than them trying to be polite. So I do think that whatever method used to get critique will be of huge benefit to those people who use it. I just hope that if it is a forum it will (a) get enough exposure to warrant its existence (b) take care of the bandwidth problem for users with slow connections. :)

Does this thread eat posts or something? That's 3 times I've got an ebot and when I turn up there's nothing here! 8

Hi Tuttle, That happens when someone posts a message and then deletes it :) ladynimue

i just read a few of the comments here only because im on my break and dont have time to read it all (hmmmm sounds like gallery viewing ) but yeah anyways.....i really like the idea of an option to tell the viewer ....hey ....give it to me straight.....if i were to see that option on someones work....im more than willing to comment on it.....but i dont because of the so called artist cant take some critizism ...which is the first rule thats broken that an artist can do ...... not accept realistic improving feed back.....but id like to take it a further step......and have and option for hey give it to me straight.....and have another even more honest option saying...hey give me your best and ugliest shot where you can say what ever your hearts desire......honestly....for me.....id love to have some one say ......man this is crap......and thats it.....nothing more ......i would not get mad at all over a comment like that......i encourage it....but dont get me wrong...i love the other comments too.....but i would love to invite any so called troll to comment on my pics HOWEVER YOU WISH TO without ristrictions....heck you can even say something that doesnt say anything about the ppic and iwouldnt care.....cause i appreciate the time they took to write alittle comment on my pic.....so in case anyone wants to test me on that...be my guest......but its a really good idea and im for implementing it.....later breaks over.....

I think that if all moderators put a thread in their particular forum then people from all of Renderosity would see that this is now happenning and could decide whether or not to put their wips into a critique forum. Catlin

Ye Gads WHips --- Oh Sorry that was wips -- Whew - You had me going for a bit :) As we are in the middle of a huge debate on the gallery uploads - perhaps it would be best to keep this thread low-key - at least until this weekend [when the gallery upload poll will be finished] I do however, appreciate everyone's thoughtful and constructive comments. Keep em coming :) ladynimue

I think that this is a case of putting the people together that belong together and keep it palatable for everyone. If you want trollish crits, go to the trolls. If you want constructive crits on specific parts of your work, ask for that. For example, if your intention is technical, say so. If your intent is more subjective, then make that known. For example, a question: "I want this effect, have I acheived it?, and if not, what can I do to get there?, will automatically attract the people who know the most about the effect you are trying to acheive.
Incorporate this into the gallery that is already the correct gallery of the work, and that way you've already gotten someone's attention, they know the program, they know the genre, etc.
Renderosity could merely supply a generic guide box for submitting work/feedback that lets the viewer know what is expected. We could post an image and fill out what we want, then a generic reply box would allow people who want to crit to fill out boxes that address the basics and then fill out the boxes that go to the intention of the artist. This way, mostly helpful information will go to those who ask for specific feedback and would be crit people would have a guide that prevents obvious bashing or undue vague comments.

I realize that people are looking for valuable comments and critique on their work.. I long ago discovered that renderosity is just not really the place for that sort of thing, for me anyway. It's just frowned upon, no matter how much the artist seems to be seeking critique. I have also found, through experience, that opening up a piece to an "unknown" audience doesn't really elicit much valuable commentary anyway. You have no idea where the comments are coming from.. 10 years in traditional art? 5 years in 3D? 2 months of porn surfing? Who knows? Without knowing your audience, and without your audience at least having a clue about where you are, the critique is rather blind. For people seeking real, valuable critique on their work, I recommend finding people whose work you admire and asking for some critique. You may not get it.. it may be a one-time only thing.. it may be ongoing. I was lucky enough to get an email from an artist whose work I admire and we have been exchanging our views on each other's work for months now.. I feel as if I have improved quite a bit as a result. I think critique is best directed or grounded in some sort of minor rule framework.. I liked the critique sessions in my pencil classes, as painful as they were sometimes. But they were focused and directed by a "known".. a teacher with years of art experience, and perpetuated by those interested in the same subject and working on many of the same things. Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded. I have been thinking about this critique thing for quite some time, and have even toyed with the idea of starting a real critique group. I could be way off base on my ideas.. just sort of throwing them out there.

Kiera - I fully see what you're saying, and I've said similar things in the past. It does make a difference who is commenting and from what background, but we can always choose to ignore comments that we don't think are valid. For instance, for my images I purposely have shadows and highlights that don't conform to any obvious light source, simply because it's my style. I might have sun from a cloudy sky, for instance, or shadows going one way and the light rays another. So when somebody comments that my lighting is "wrong" I can appreciate what they're saying, and I'm grateful they took the time to comment, but I don't look on it as something to correct because it was intentional. But to qualify what I just said (i.e. sort of contradict it!), if Boris Vallejo or Jim Burns turned up and commented that my lighting was "wrong" then that I'd think "OK, my lighting's wrong", no questions! So yes, in the extreme it can be difficult to know which comments to take notice of and which to ignore, but I think in the most part it is fairly easy to sift out the really useful criticism. Also, on many occasions I've had comments from "less experienced" artists that struck a chord and really helped me out. And that's not to say criticism has to be negative, or point out faults. It's perfectly valid for a person to say "great image", as long as they really mean it! "Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded." You think that's long winded? I guess you haven't visited Forum News recently... ;) lol!

I often tell people to ignore comments they really disagree with, but that is subjective also.. I am not saying that making rosity more critique friendly is a futile endeavor.. I think it is a good idea. I am basically just cautioning people to carefully evaluate the feedback they get.

And I agree! :)

INteresting idea, sounds like a WIP forum/gallery.

Just an idea I get the most honest feedback from the chatroom. they will either post it in your comments, or tell you directly in the chatroom. Also, when I look at someones image, and see something a little off, I will IM them instead of posting in their comments. I do this because others will read the comments, and it immediately points out the flaws to others. I have noticed (at least on my images) that it sets a trend for a downward spiraling of negative feedback. After a while it gets repetative, and sometimes downright ugly. A little consideration among members would eliminate the need for the checkbox or a critique forum. anyway, I do still post comments and give excellents. Artwork can still be excellent - even with technical flaws. It's ll about how the image makes me feel when I see it.

I know that I'm jumping in late here but I would love this site to have a Critique Forum. If it worked along the lines of that ladynimue stipulated above, it would be excellent. I've suggested it here before but only ever got the answer, "Try using the Art Theory forum" so it's wonderful to think the idea might be taken seriously at long last. After all, isn't the Art Theory forum for discussing theories about art? Just think, an art site with a forum for artists to critique art...it's radical but it might just work ;-)

Hi everyone - WOW thanks for this great feedback! Outstanding discussion. I have not forgotten about this thread - Just got back from a long holiday in England and have spend the last week playing catch-up with pressing matters. I will bring this issue to the attention of the Mods, Admins, and programmers :) Thanks once more for everyone's input! ladynimue

im always happy to get feedback, good or bad tuttle, least it shows me that someone took the time to at least care enough to accually try to help me improve/make a comment about the image. Thats one reason i don't use 'rating' on my images, when i stopped doing that it really cut out alotta random postings to the images, seems some people live just to rate them, but i don't care if i make the top 20 or not i just want honest feedback :)