I've had problems with attempting to rotate props in all three directions, and two of the dials (both the x and Y) rotating the object in exactly the same fashion. Has anybody else experienced this problem, and is there a workaround?

Gimbal lock - look it up and learn about it. It is a constant in the 3D computer universe. BYS

Er...okay...would you be willing to provide some more detail on where to look it up? It doesn't have a reference in the poser manual, and not all of us are technically savvy. I did a search on gimbal lock in the forum, and have yet to find a concise solution.

Eeoooo...the dreaded Gimbel lock. Hate that. Laurie

Select the prop and export it using File->Export->Waveform Object. In the "Check items to include" box make sure only the prop has a checkmark. Then reimport it and the gimbal lock will be gone. Make sure to save the fixed prop to your prop library or you'll have to do this again. Here's a simple;) explanation of gimbal lock: http://www.anticz.com/eularqua.htm

It happens to me a lot. So far, whenever it is mentioned in the forums, anyone that seems to know about it gives the smug, smart-assed comments. So how do you circumvent it?

Smug, smart-assed? I don't allow that to rattle me. I'm here to get information and most people are very helpful. If it makes somebody feel good to condescend, and I don't allow it to bug me, then no harm is done.

Smart-assed??? I hope I didn't offend. I know about Gimbel lock and what it does, but not what causes it. And I don't know how to get around it. It was just a comment. Not being condescending to say the least. I DO hate Gimbel lock - it happens to me on a regular basis. :o( If I was really being smart-assed, you would no doubt be certain that's my intention. And I don't do that. Laurie

Pookah69, I was not referring to you. You asked a very good question. I have seen many people ask for info about this, and none of the answers were helpful. I now notice that "poser" actually offered something helpful. Sorry if I offended you. I meant no reference to you or your question. I get the gimble lock with figures, not only props. It would be wonderful to learn how to stop it from occurring.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=959487

Some more info on gimbal lock in the above thread.

Sorry if I sounded 'smug', but gimbal lock is a very, very, very, very, very, very well known problem in 3D computer graphics. There are thousands of books that discuss it, thousands of web pages, thousands of resources. In fact, there are hundreds of threads on this forum concerning it. Why should I reiterate and regurgitate the same information? If I'd the time, I would have posted a set of links, but you have fingers, computer, Google, and a search engine here. I gave you the exact information needed to learn about it yourself. BYS

A search of "gimbal lock" on Google resulted in 5550 links (1800 if quoted). The number one result has this: "What is Gimbal Lock and why does it occur?" Don't expect the Poser manual to tell you everything about 3D CG. There are far better references in books and online. Google is a great way to find them. BYS

If you load a P4 cone (for example) from the Prop Types pallet and zRotate it 90 degrees you will have gimbal lock, the x and y Rotate dials will have the same effect. One way to work round gimbal lock without editing the prop is to load another prop in the document, line its x, y, and z translations up with your gimbal locked prop (without changing any of its rotations), then parent the original prop to the new one. Now hide the new prop and use its yRotate dial to get your missing rotation back.

Poser is not my first or only 3d app. I have used Imagine since 1989. It never exhibited any spatial manipulation flaw of this sort. Thanks to everyone who helped pookah69 and myself with their answers.

Attached Link: http://www-3-AXIS.com

I think I have Gimbal Lock! I've been sitting at my computer for so frickin long my legs won't bend out of 90. :)

No no LDLD - that's a different problem entirely. That's IK. You gotta switch off IK for your legs before you try to get up or you'll break something :o) :] Fish

Yo Fishy .. how you doin'? Actually, since pookah69 asked a perfectly sensible question .. here's the easiest answer. You just rotated the object 90 degrees. Well, turn it back one or two degrees. Now the other two axes work fine. You'll need to tweak the final position of the object.

FishNose: That fixed it! That fixed it! LOL

Gimbal lock doesn't have to and shouldn't occur when you're rotating the body. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. Poser is the ONLY 3D app I have that exhibits it. So don't believe anyone when they say it's a necessary evil. I can see it for body parts, but not for Body.

I get gimbal lock on infinite lights often.

Attached Link: Gimbal lock and Euler angles

Spit, Gimbal lock occurs in all Poser objects, because they all use a 3 channels rotation system. The Body of Posette, for example, has rotation order yRotate xRotate zRotate. Whenever you set the middle rot channel (xRotate) of Body to 90 or -90, you lose a rotation axis (yRotate and zRotate have same rotation axis). All 3D apps with 3 parameter rotation system generate gimbal lock effects. To avoid gimbal lock in Poser, you can add an additional rot channel (then you have a 4 channel rotation system). You find some more information in post #11 of the above message.

VK...it doesn't matter WHY Poser does it. It matters only that it does it. All I know is that in Bryce etc I can rotate something on either x, y, or z with NO gimbal lock. It doesn't matter what the technical reason is, Poser does not HAVE to exhibit the behavior when rotating the body. They just didn't code for it. It makes Poser extremely difficult to use for scene setup and is why I think adding a fancy raytracer to Poser 5 was silly without fixing this problem.

Yes, Poser DOES. This is a standard, well-known problem with Euler Angles. It is unavoidable when using Euler Angles. They couldn't have coded for it. They could have used Quaternions instead, only showing Euler Angles for the user's edification. Quaternions are a known way to avoid gimbal lock, although still not perfect. It happens in 3DSMax (though they supposedly have a "workaround" but haven't heard much about its success). It happens in LightWave (try rotating the perspective view to coincide with the Y-axis and watch your view lock to it). It happens in many 3D applications, any using Euler Angles. The way to avoid it is as was discussed: parenting so that one parent acts as an X rotator and another acts as Y rotator. In all cases, you must avoid gimbal lock on the parent(s), or you're back where you started. Sorry, the reason is VERY important since it is a fundamental mathematical one, not one restricted to your precious Poser application. If any of you would bother to learn about the technical side of 3D mathematics and its use in computer programs, you'd be better equipped to avoid these problems or understand them when they occur. BYS - 3D CG User: Poser 4/ProPack, Poser 5, Cinema 4D XL 7.3, Cinema 4D XL R8, BodyPaint3D, ImageModeler 3.5, LightWave 7.5 3D, Maya 4.5 PLE, UV Mapper, AutoCAD 2000. - 3D Programmer: C/C++/Java/Java 3D/VRML for 10 years (15 years programming generally) - 3D Books: Computer Graphics - Foley et al 3D Computer Graphics - Watt Graphics Gems I - IV Black Art of 3D Game Programming - LaMothe High-Resolution Computer Graphics Using C - Angell Computer Graphics for Java Programming - Ammeraal Java 3D API Jump-Start Computer Graphics - Plastock & Kalley Computer Graphics Handbook - Mortenson Warping and Morphing of Graphical Objects - Gomes et al The Annotated VRLM 2.0 Reference Manual - Carey & Bell ...plus various mathematics books on Vector and Tensor Analysis, Chaos, Calculus, Algrebra, Geometry, Analytic Geometry, Topology, Matrix Theory (don't need one for Trig as I'm well versed in it). ...plus several dozen minor 3D and 3D programming books since sold. Knowledge is Power...

"Dammit Jim, I'm just a country artist, not a mathematician!!" to paraphrase Dr. McCoy. BYS obviously knows his stuff. If I have to learn all of that just to use Poser, the entire concept is self-defeating. I would never get any art accomplished. I could do without the condescending attitude. If we were all like BYS, our art would be similar, thus boring. Sorry, some of us are less educated than others. I would use the parenting workaround, but for some odd reason the menu will rarely scroll. Maybe I need more RAM. In 15 years using Imagine, I never once had anything like Gimbal Lock. It must use a different math system.

Connatic, ;) Well, to use all of the 3D software that I mentioned, learning alot of that stuff was vital! Of course, programming 3D engines and so forth makes all of it even more vital. Hey, I resemble that remark. My art is neither boring nor similar. FYI :), I started out as a traditional artist (pencil, pen, crayon, charcoal, pastels, watercolors, gauche, oil, tempora, acrylic, enamel (plastics), lacquer (airbrushing guitars and cars). My style is surrealistic/fantasy, but I can do regular stuff like still-lifes, portraits, commercial work, and so on. Here's where I can connect the two. An artist who doesn't know or care to know about the properties of the medium being used or how to use the tools, is doomed to failure. Can you use watercolors on a metal surface that'll be outdoors for a permanent piece of artwork? Is it a good idea to touch an oil painting after only an hour? Do some mediums melt plastic? How does the medium's pigments combine to get the desired colorations? Each medium has its differences, each tool its use. You must know the pros and cons, ins and outs, limitations and powers of your 3D apps just like the mediums and tools used in traditional art. In all honesty, like other 3D apps, Poser should mention its systems and their pros and cons in the manual. Imagine may be using Quaternions or a form of HPB that circumvents gimbal lock (like Cinema 4D). BYS

BYS, I did not mean to imply anything negative about your art. Truthfully, I try to learn as much as I can about my digital tools. I also come from a traditional art background, and I paint guitars and cars. I cannot, however, manufacture the media. I wish I could create my own acrylic lacquer, as it was the very best paint for airbrushing. As far as I know, it has been banned. I was once a very good mathematician, but 2 head traumas seem to have damaged that ability, along with most of my senses of smell and taste. You are the type of person many of us reach out to, for help. Please keep in mind, most users of Poser are not professional artists, nor are they math geniuses. Maybe with some help from you, many can bridge some of the gaps in their knowledge and be assisted toward becoming what you already are. I do sell my work made with Poser. Since Imagine has some major compatability issues with Poser, my modelling cannot be taken advantage of here. Poser is great for comics, so I use it. Soon I plan to buy Carrara2. Then I can produce Poser-related models. -fritz