Just have a quick question for a texture and character pack I am doing. I am not someone who likes to name a set or character (Sierra or Burt for bizarre example) and I am trying to figure out what to call a set of textures for a black/african/african-american V3 figure and I don't want to get anyone upset. I work in newspapers in my day job and the "correct" term according to the associated press is "black" unless it is something that specifically is named otherwise etc. I am tired and rambling now but I am looking for a name that won't offend. My last product was "Ghost V3 Male Pack" because it is kinda short and explains what it is. What should I call the product in this age of politically correctness? Thaks in advance ...

bah call it whatever you want daz has brown sugar textures

Yep i agree with Brandon. Politcal correctness has reached the point of pathetic. Hopefully there will be an black person here though who will be able to help :)

Howabout:
'Dark skin tone textures for V3'

shrugs

People with dark skin are not necessarily of the same tone... Saying something is an "african" skin texture set conjures different tones in mind than a "native american" skin texture set and an australian "aborigine" set brings to mind even more hues, and they are all dark skin tones.

Hummm...OK Well then howabout Ghostofmacbeth textures for V3 :)

how about Bllcks to political correctness? :) call it whatever you want, because whatever you call it someone is bound to complain.

Well, people in Africa come in all sorts of shades. But equally, no-one expects that something described as African must apply to the whole continent. Skin tone typical of an Ashanti can be described as African even if it is different from a Berber, and vice versa. But the truth of the matter is that it's not worth worrying about. I get irate at those who spend forever trying to "improve" the language and do nothing about the issues that matter. "Oh, we no longer have a problem with blind people - they aren't blind, they're just visually impaired." And so on.

I also think trying to be too p.c. can easily become ridiculous. I could imagine that some people may find "brown sugar" more offensive than "black". I would go with something easy, probably "black". If you give it too obscure names, the name will not be descriptive any more. Especially non-native speakers are often not familiar with p.c. language.

Are the palms and soles lighter and the nipples and lips and hair darker? If so, then "black" is just fine, unless you want to get more specific such as a representative tribal name. If your skin tones are simply darker overall, then describing the set as dark, tanned, or perhaps sepia, umber, or whatever hue comes closest would be more accurate. Carolly

Ghost will it be like Hauksdottir asks, the lighter palm etc...if so when will it be up, will it be a huge dload, will you make a smaller version for us dial up folks :o)....as for the PC stuff..RASberryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to it :o)......Steve

If the correct term with the Associated Press is "black", then "black" should be fine. I appreciate the effort, but you could probably call the texture "Bob" and offend someone. ^_~

ROFL FyreSpiryt! Thats Namest! I'm offended!

bob said that you have to give pay him each time someone dowloads the textures if you name them bob, he also said he will be contacting his lawyer about FyreSpiryts' unauthorized use of his name in a previous post. This post is copyright Brandonc 2003 "Bob" is a registered trademark of Bob all rights reserved

Hi I agree with all of the above Call it what you will as long as it's not meant to be deliberatly insulting it shouldn't matter. I've just returned my staff details update to HR with a comment under 'what ethnic group do you belong to.' saying that asking the question is in it self racist if people are employed for their ability to do the job then you do not need to ask if not then i'm working for a racist firm! sorry but This sort of PC stuff really gets to me If the current work is correct then we all have our 'roots' in central Africa anyway. Dave

Dave - there can be a good reason for asking about ethnic group: the company compares its staff demography with that for the whole population of prospective employees to see if some bias has crept into its recruitment policy. Racism (or other "ism") doesn't have to be overt, or even conscious, which is why it's so hard to identify and eradicate.

Whatever you decide, not African American, please. Not everyone with dark skin lives in the USA.

I agree with everyone else Ghost. There will be SOMEONE who won't like the name no matter what you call it :o). Ya just can't please everyone (and you shouldn't even try). Just call it what it is - black. I certainly never minded being called white. I can't imagine a black person would mind the term black either :o). If there would be, there just aren't enough proper monikers left, so call it what you like. Laurie

"I agree with everyone else Ghost. There will be SOMEONE who won't like the name no matter what you call it :o). Ya just can't please everyone (and you shouldn't even try). Just call it what it is - black. I certainly never minded being called white. I can't imagine a black person would mind the term black either :o). If there would be, there just aren't enough proper monikers left, so call it what you like." Remember when "black" was the word of choice? Black Power, Black Panthers and Nina Simone's song, "Young, Gifted and Black"?

Politically correct aside, I'd follow on the Shakesphere theme. How about "Othello"? Or "The Moor"? Or any Shakesphere character for that matter. Even a name like "As you like it" keeps the consistancy in the series (because I hope there's more to come). "Juliet" probably wouldn't work though... Another option is to go with a nation name, like "Madagascar" or "Kenya". Tribal names aren't too bad, but I'd avoid "Pygmi". Even Ghost II has it's charm...

Thats a brilliant idea pdxjims! That definately gets my vote

Ghostofmacbeth, As a black/african american/negro person, I appreciate the fact that you even asked the question. I applaude your attempt to be non-offending. Now personally, I am not offended by any of the terms you suggested, but I think I would go for something like "Black" or "Dark" as descriptors for your textures. Disclaimer: I am not speaking for every black person who may frequent this forum,...just myself.

Well said JL :)

I used to employ African staff, from several different countries, and one thing they all did agree on was that they were "BLACK". Same thing with the Afro-caribean ones.

Thanks alll ... Pretty much what I was thinking but the brain sometimes gets in the way when sleepy ... And yes the palms are lighter and things and it should be up soon I hope. I am trying to keep the file size down and give as much variety as I can. It will probably be around the same size file as my Male Pack at Daz and I am submitting it in a few minutes.

If I were doing it I'd go with, Black or African, but definately not African American as has been noted, that'd just be kind of silly in not ridiculously america-centric. :D I did like the idea of a less descriptive but more catchy name like the place names mentioned above. as an aside, I think too much political correctness drives people of different races further apart, not closer together. How can people really get along well if they secretly resent having to walk on eggshells trying not to offend people. :D

"And yes the palms are lighter and things and it should be up soon I hope." That's pretty exciting news, I've been wanting some good convincing black tectures for a while.

er Textures... all that remodelling and still no edit button. :(

um, the only thing i would say about using just black, as a person of color, is as stated above, all those groups name themselves as black. i generally think of myself that way. but i don't look like i come from africa. i don't know about the political connotations of your item, but i think the name should be both catchy and informative. quim2001's Zulu is the sort of really deep chocolate the name implies. dalinise's brown sugar (not daz's) is the sort of medium mix that's common in america. i actually remember a thread where people were posting what they wanted most in a vicky 2 set. almost everybody said more diversity, and one person notably said someone african and not cafe au lait mixed looking because there were already enough out there. this isn't to say that there aren't tons of different looking types of people of color in every nation, on every continent. either way, i think your name should give some sort of indication of the character's style. what niche do you want to appeal to? what makes this character special? is this an average guy/gal or a fantasy/sf type? whatever your intent with building the character, i think the name should match.

I would use Negroid. It the absolute correct title. Just like Caucasian.

First, Ghostofmacbeth, I do want to thank you since it is rare to see any interest in the question of politeness and ethnicity in the Renderosity community. I use the term "black" for myself but I can understand if you wish to use a term that is more regionally or ethnically descriptive. My own feeling is that it is more polite to avoid names that objectify i.e... "Chocolate Bar for Michael" or names that display an ignorance of history i.e... "Sambo for Michael" but there is nothing wrong with "Shades of Blackness for V3" or "Caramel to Chocolate tones for V3. As for complaints about your choice of names, as long as you remain as sensitive and polite as you seem, I think the name that you choose will be fine. I must add the proviso that you should think about the audience you are selling to and avoid familarity or the urge to ignore your customer.

As a movie character quipped, "Always bet on Black." It's as simple and neutral as you're likely to get. If Black seems too bland, I've seen some people use "Ebony." I think what people are looking for in general are "Dark Skin Textures." Given the variety of actual hues, even within racial and ethnic groups, I think that's a good general description. Let people look at the examples and see if it fits what they're looking for specifically. As long as that's part of the description, any other catchy name you want to add is fine, as long as in, nemesis10 examples, you don't use something obviously in poor taste. Come back here when you've chosen a name, I'm sure someone will tell you in the unlikely event you've somehow goofed.

Out here in California, the Word "Nubian" has emerged in the past few years or so.....perhaps sooner then that, but I did not realize it? If you do a search, for Nubia,or Nubian, you will find sites that describe and try to depict a society for black people of african decent. I don't think the term is meant to describe just the people who live in the US.....but since my time is limited, I can't read each and everyone of them........so I could be wrong. Anyway, I thought that this might be something that no-one would be offended by...........once again........I could be wrong? genny

If "Ebony" and "Jet" work for the magazines... ;) Of course, then you might get trademark issues. :)

Nubian is quite an old term. IIRC It refers to an ancient civilization of dark skinned people. The term Kushite also comes to mind. I'm no expert on ancient history though. As far as the usage you referred too, I'm pretty sure Nubian has been used at least as far back as the 70s IE: She's a Nubian Goddess." :D

HMMM...
...So you need to be descriptive...
...Yet it needs to be catchy...
...You probably want the name to reflect upon all the work you put into the texture...

You don't want it to be an obvious attempt to be politically correct, yet I'm sure a list could be drawn up of names to NOT call it.

Why not just give it a persons name?

I really don't like giving it a person's name for multiple reasons a. you have to do so much research to see if the name is in use by some other person in some other store. b. I really don't like naming the things. Don't do it for my own work most times and don't want to pick a random name just cause. My names are "Thug," "Rogue," "Hero" etc fo the most part LOL c. If I name a person it locks them in more as the only way that it can be used. In stead of becoming a basis for working with someone it sort of becomes the look it has to be. But the name is decided and should be up in a few weeks.

Well is it necessary to use the term "black" at all? If it was a caucasian skin texture would you feel the need to call it "caucasian Cathy" or some such name? I've noticed this tendency with people who come up with black or other ethnic super hero characters. They always try to incorporate the ethniticity into the name like Asian Avenger or Dark Power etc. yet this is never done with white characters. maybe you just don't need to make any reference to race at all. Just use the same naming scheme as you would with a caucasian texture. As an aside I abhore PC. I drink black coffee on an oriental rug and seperate my whites and coloreds. PC is actually not a media buzz word as some people think. It was created by the Soviet Communist party in the 30s and 40s. The party asked themselves what's the biggest obstacle to spreading communism. Their answer was western capitalism and individuality. There solution was to come up with a series of "correcting" laws, punishments and social rules designed to punish people with anti-government thought, actions or words. Since they didn't have the power to simply jail everyone, they instead incorporated programs designed to shame and punish in round about ways. Casto adopted PC when he assumed power. Cuba is a fairly PC country. Everyone loves Cuba, just ask the citizens. Of course if they say otherwise they can be fined, jailed, harrassed etc. PC is a lot more political than most people know.

Attached Link: http://www.babynames.com/V5/index.php

Good point, Mason. While I certainly wouldn't call it racism, there seems to be a (probably unconscious) tendency to try to brand "ethnic" characters/textures in a way that identifies them. I'm sure it's harmless and well intentioned but it is a little amusing.

PC is... 1) Politically Correct 2) Personal Computer 3) Pretty Crappy 4) All of the above

I agree Mason but I also know that "Ghost V3 Male and Female Character Pack" is a little too generic and also may compete with "Ghost V3 Male and Female Character Pack No. 2" that may come out in the future and it also may compete with "Mason's Male and Fe.... Ahhh .. you get the idea :) Plus it is just too dang long a title. Heck .. if it was on my computer it would probably just be in a folder called "Stuff" anyway ;)

Although there are a few terms I can think of which should never be used to describe an individual's skin texture, a reasonable person of any race should not be offended as long as whatever term is used is done so politely and with respect. I would use terms that describe a persons skin texture with such terms as mahogony, alabaster, olive. Healthy Skin Textures of whatever hue are all very beautiful and the names you give them should reflect this. As to Bob . . .

Here's BLACK translated into several languages French - noir, German- Schwarzes, Dutch - zwart, Italian - nero, Brazillian- preto, Spanish - negro. No, I'm not that multi lingual, the translations are from http://www.worldlingo.com/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html :-)

Mmm.. well, just think of something.. would you be offended if someone says ure white, or u have pale skin? i wouldnt be.. so i guess a black /dark skinned person wouldnt be either? its just a phisical characteristic as having blonde hair or green eyes.. so wheres the matter? :)

Just to answer Variane's question, I think where one can get into trouble is that there are many archaic terms for groups of people that still seem to circulate and there is a history of thinking about complex groups of people as a single physical characteristic. Unfortunately, most of them are slurs. By analogy, if you refer to a woman by a term for female genitalia (no matter how fond you are of that anatomy) or as an animal (even though you love female dogs), it will still be perceived as a slur. I believe, as a general rule, it is best not to "guess" but to ask as Ghostofmacbeth has done and, likewise, be told in a friendly and imformative way what name I respond to pleasantly.

'...as a general rule, it is best not to "guess"...' Especially when you start considering groups that span a variety of nations, cultures religions, etc. I recall some years ago, a major athletic shoe manufacturer had to dump a huge number of new shoes because some symbol or name on them was considered offensive in one particular part of the world. I was reading a Spanish dictionary once and was surprised to find that what I was familiar with as a slang term for the female genetalia among American Hispanics, was the name for an ear of corn in some parts of South or Central America. It can also be a generational thing. One still occasionally runs into older people who use the term "Colored," in all innocence, not quite realizing that it's "out of fashion," and might conceivably offend someone who doesn't take that generational factor into account.

Something else to consider....a lot of the Black characters in the stores are billed as "exotic" in the advertising blurbs. My partner is Black, and she gets really tired of White guys thinking she is exotic just because she's Black. Of course, most character makers would like to think their characters are exotic (I don't see "Humdrum Vicky" or "Ordinary Vicky" in the stores), but please let it be for more of a reason than just that she's Black. lynn

"When someone refers to something as "skin coloured"... what colour do they refer to?" Many years ago, the company that makes Crayola Crayons changed the name of their "Flesh" color to Peach. If it's the same color I remember, it doesn't resemble a peach any more than it resembled the color of anyone's flesh. Nevertheless, it did recognize the fact that singling out one color to represent human beings was, at best, silly and at worst, something else. It has become almost fashionable today to ridicule so called "political correctness." There are undoubtedly cases in which PC has been taken to ridiculous extremes. At the same time, the basic motivations behind the concept, tolerance, sensitivity and plain old politeness remain valid in an increasingly interdependent world.