OT, a bit, but... Met PhilC at Dragon*Con last year. One of the nicest, soft-spoken, easy-going, unpretentious guys you'll ever know. Oh, and he has a real knack for this 3D stuff!

As I've said, I never minded the commercial ads here, I also don't mind going to the Product Showcase forum. I usually hit it at least once per day. So I don't see either choice as a problem. I also don't see what the big deal is about getting more people to look at a merchant's products. Sprinter's contests ALWAYS seem to have long lists of posts = large numbers of people looking at the items in question. Perhaps the problem isn't in where the advertisements are but in the advertisements them selves. And if the P.S. forum isn't enough, by itselve use a banner.. yep they are still up there, and point it to more details in the P.S. forum! I'm sure there are other ways to draw attention to the P.S. forum, or directly to the merchant's store. I think it should be ok to show a WIP in this forum when a specific question, opinion, or reqiest for help is made, even if it's as simple as, "is there a market for this?". As long as it's kept "in Taste", say a single post and not a case of spaming the forum with an 'update a hour'. I think part of the problem recently has been because the posts in question had multiple advertised items in them. They used Mike 3 as a hook (yes I'm as interested in seeing what he is like as everyone else!) then also contained commercial items by the poster. If they had contained the poster's item alone, and with a question, etc. in the mix, no one would have complained. IMHO The inclusion of M3 as a hook (intentional or otherwise) to get more people to look, along with the number of messages that popped up in a short period of time, pushed it a bit past simple requests and grated on others that have been chastised for the same "transgretion", or less. That's why I believe we need solid rules, published and followed/enforced by/for all. typo's and opinions are my own, I appologize for the first... mike

With a Product Showcase Forum,a Product Showcase Gallery,credits for products(WITH LINKS)on most images in the regular Poser Gallery(probably one of the most viewed on the net),the Market Place with full product info,and three pages for Product pictures and endorsing,the Front Page that showcases hot and sale items, Banner Ads on(I beleive)every page at Renderosity,a link at the top of every page in the Poser Forum to take you right to the Product Forum.... the merchants now want to flood the Poser Forum with their merchandise spam? Wasn't the Product Showcase Forum created because the vast majority of members wanted to have a place..JUST ONE FU*KING PLACE that they could learn about,exchange ideas on,help out each other with Poser,without Merchants shoving their wares down our throats. Ive overlooked when merchants come to this forum, airing their dirty laundry about who stole whose pose this week,or to inform me that I must delete my MP purchase( and lose my money) because they now claim some other merchant stole it from them.Those are business disputes that if the merchant had even the smallest amount of professionalism,would deal with it without dragging the members and customers thru their Shit. Now we have a handful of Greedy merchants who knowing full well that they shouldnt be posting their products here are doing so.One takes the attitude that he is an artist,and thusly has the right to post here,another tries to justify it by saying its WIPindeed. And yet another merchant (female) called the members here whiners" for not wanting her product ads here,and get this..WE(the whining members) should be the ones moved to another forum. I know this is not a cut and dry situation as merchants like PhilC,SteveShanks,Jim Burton,Sharen,Anton (to name only a few)will on occasion show a small shot of something theyre working on.Im Very OK with that (as I think most are),because of their demeanor,the way it is presented,and the explanation of how they work,is more of an education than of any sales pitch. I find it fantastic to be able see how the masters work,.but more importantly its because merchants like them are here to help and make this forum what it should be.They take the time and effort to answer a question from an advance user to helping the most novice newbie in other words, they are contributing members of this forum(not carpet baggers) .I believe they understand how important it is,that for Renderosity to remain strong and continue to grow,the Poser forum should remaine free of spam,and the rape by the greedy.Unfortunately the're this monetary greedy handful,that just can't crasp the concept that this is also a very wise business practice.If you spam this forum,insult the members,and play your little "lets see what I can get away with"games,you run off members(members=CUSTOMERS). If a merchant makes a product, that shows good craftsmanship,origanilty,usefulness,etc.it will be talked about here by our large compulsive buying Poserholic membership, and will no doubt generate more sales for himwhat more advertising could they want. Add this to the above list of avenues for their product to be noticed,and I doubt much more can be done. If they can't sell their wears on the largest site on the net,with more ways to gain access to them than ANY other site....adding flags,more links,bigger buttons,and spamming the Poser forum isn't going to change a thing....people just don't want what they have to offer....simple... Should any changes be made...only one that I can think of..open up that Merchant's Forum to the general membership,so we can annoy the crap out of them for awhile! OK..I'll just shut up now... SWAMP

Well said SWAMP

you guys sure talk a lot .... slow down! I have to read this thing squints

"How do we get more people to the Showcase?" Why bother? Maybe they just don't want to read that forum. Why should they?

Without reading what went before... How about sticking a perma-link into the top bar, like the ones for poser patches and the like, that way those that want to read it can find it quick, etc. Or you could gather the offending ads and add a link on a daily basis, that'd be more admin overhead but only one extra thread per day, (if ads were posted that day) This site is supported by the store so I guess getting people to buy more stuff, (or at least look at it) make sense. later jb

Here's a notion. It won't satisfy everyone, but it is easy to implement and won't bother too many people. Just put a link to the showcase on the header to this forum?!? There is none there now, so you have to go and hunt it up.

I did not get into this argument to have the forums changed or because I wanted more merchant rights. I got into it because I feel I'm being falsely accused of maliciously committing unsavory acts against Renderosity and its members. If Swamp read the threads thoroughly, it would have noticed that "skirting the rules" and "cheeseballing" were being thrown around before I ever mentioned whiners. However, even if you changed the forums, someone would still find something to complain about as it is just impossible to please everyone. As I stated before, I simply want clear guidelines not some that I must guess at. And, my posts DID NOT violate the guidelines. My intent with my images was not advertisement regardless of what some choose to believe. I was simply sharing my accomplishments in a place I thought people would enjoy seeing them. However, it is obvious that some see them differently. As such, I will refrain from posting images in this forum. So, please let Renderosity get back to being the fun filled and pleasurable place to visit that it always is. :) Beth

Have to agree with Lucy_Fur in regards to the the name calling of "children" This isn't paid advertising space, if you want that "right" buy more banner space you can you know. This community is free to all - consumers and merchant's alike. Consumers have just as much right to not deal with even more advertising and merchants have a right to exposure. It's equal - you don't have one without the other. I do however really like Illusions idea of favorite merchants - that way we can get a notice of when a favored merchant puts out a new product as well as giving the merchants we porefer additional advertising on our home pages here. That this is an issue now is not a surprise, even the gallery isn't keeping to the product showcase standard. I'm not talking about images that use a product, but those that will specifically state "I am beta testing this for so &so" or "to be released soon" those are often times no longer in the Product gallery either. My point is that when they are allowed in the forum or the gallery it creates a blurred line and members no longer know what is acceptable and what isn't. Like Phil - I will refuse to buy what is shoved in my face. LOL Today I was calling around for DSL rates for the new house we are buying (where I will finally be able to get DSL - simply because it's more rural) and one sales man was a hard seller - wouldn't let up. I don't care how good his rates (and they weren't) I wouldn't use him now. Heck I videotape my favorite tv shows regularly just so I can zip through the commercials while viewing EG Equally product help for development does really belong in the merchant forum - that is stated as one of it's purposes - for merchant's to help each other isn't it? Perhaps linking to the product showcase from the marketplace (is that done already?). Beth - I enjoy your images - not because of the products but because of the faces - perhaps if you simply put them in the gallery? I would add you a s afavorite artists and then I would know everytime you posted a new cutie.

The poser forum in my opinion is crowded enough without putting in ads. The problem as a merchant is that I want people to see my works and somehow direct them to the showcase forum or my store. So it is tempting to post in the Poser Forum and direct them. Of course if every merchant did this there would probably be a minimum of 50 ads per day. Also the Admins would have to mark posts as "Ads" if they are submitted incorrectly. In otherwords it would make the forum chotic and a headache for those that want to use it for it's intended purpose. On the other hand, The Product Showcase Forum has an evergrowing list of problems. People use it for Contests such as name my new product or guess how many toes my version of vicki has. regardles of how dumb the contest is, it causes lots of added posts and moves "showcased" products down on the listings. I have had a new product on the first advertising page for as little as a few hours due to posting just before someone comes in with a contest. Or because some contiversial thread that gets going with like 50 responses. For these reasons I can appreciate and understand why merchants try to reach out in other ways. It is really hard sometimes to get recognised as a merchant and to get a good and trusted reputation. If you advertise or post too much and too hard you may turn people off. On the other hand if you don't post and don't advertise on a regular basis you may be losing potential sales. And of course if you are too longwinded people get bored with you. So, to sum it up. We need something else but I don't know what it is. Billy AKA ironhart

-In general, I am against mixing the adds into the poser forum. I don't have the time to keep up with the things I want to follow, and having adds (for me) decreases the value of the forum becuase I have to weed through that much more to find what I want.
--If I find a topic or thread that interests me and I'm already reading through it, and I see a product I like, I would be much more likely to follow a link or otherwise look for the product over on the Product Showcase forum. Really the best way to get me to go there would be for me to see it in action in the threads I follow. (And for the tiny minority of evil types who just thought "hey, I can just pretend to be using my product and get him to follow a link over to it!", that probably won't work. Just slapping in a new thread with a random picture and a link is unlikely to convince me to follow it (there are a lot more links available than I can possibly follow, why would I follow that one?) I already have to be interested enough to get to your topic and stay with it for more than 2 seconds.)
--Of course now that I've said all this I'm going to have to go check out the Product Showcase forum. sleep... what was that?
--This is not a solution to getting people to the gallery, but for merchants who use it and want a way to increase exposure, I would suggest putting a meaningful subject line on the thread. For instance, if I'm looking for hair, I'll LOOK for hair. If I see "now, they're back!" as a subject, I'm not even going to bother looking at it. I have no clue what it is about, and since I have to skip something due to time constraints, I'll concentrate on subjects that appear to be geared towards what I want and ignore the ones that have only a random chance of being anything I want.