Attached Link: http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81908

Man, I'd hate to be this poor bastard. I understand the guy was wrong for misrepresenting the creation of the meshes, but the anti poser sentiment is pretty pervasive...

He didn't actually misrepresent the mesh at all, he just didn't mention that he used the Evil Poser figure Victoria2. These people(idiots) irritate me so much I would love to knock them into the middle of next month.

Actually, I didn't really see any anti-poser stuff there except where they stated that the RULES of the challenge were that it all had to be your own models unless you identified them as "3rd party". In other words, using Poser or any OTHER pre-made models without identifying them as "3RD PARTY" was cheating. My understanding of the entire purpose of that particular board/community was learning to do your own modeling, etc. This guy cheated on the contest rules and then lied about it. THAT'S what everyone was all in an uproar about. From what I read, most of them couldn't care less what tools are use as long as the rules are followed.

Attached Link: http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.ph...p;pagenumber=10

C1rcle, on this particlar model he didn't mention that he used Poser, but he has led people to believe he doesn't use Poser for anything and he was one of CGTalks 'heavy hitters', consistently making the front page gallery. Here's a direct quote from him:

"I never used poser, except one time to try it, and to know what kinda of soft it was. I finally thought that creating his own character has more much fun than used an "already done" character, and most of all for a challenge... Maybe some people do it, but that's not my case. So here is the model i did to put on the boat, the woman " -Strike

I feel sorry for guy. He had a really nice website gallery which he has now taken down as a result of the backlash.

I don't feel sorry for him if he misrepresented his work. What's worse, an ignorant 3d artist dissing Poser, or a closet user pretending he's above such things? Either way, he did it to himself.

Plenty of anti-poser stuff there if you look long enough. They bend over backwards to cut us poor untalented "hobbyists" a break but. . . "I'm no one to point a finger at anyone.... Ive used Poser myself when I first was attracted to 3D. It was cheap and fun but I knew it was not real 3D art because it was someone elses." And another point of view "and honestly if you used poser for a pic would you say so?.. no because people would flame you." He was quite wrong to break the rules of contests-- no dispute. But the rest of it sounds like someone who liked using the tools we use and couldn't say so because our tools are scum in that community. Worse, our tools are benighted mesh theft. I thought I was doing 3D art. I don't want to model, I don't want to listen the people over there anymore either. They don't all hate us, but they "know" we ain't doing art. Just "crappy poser renders." Emily the crappy Poser renderer and proud of it!

Attached Link: http://deathfall.com/feature.php?op=showcontent&id=24

I agree with you, and I think there's some real art made with Poser models. Not every image posted has to be considered art, but that's a whole different discussion. But that guy made a fraud, and it's this kind of cases that hurts very deeply the Poser comunity. Some months ago I participated in a 3D contest and something very similar hapened there (http://deathfall.com/feature.php?op=showcontent&id=24). The winner used Poser models and never mentioned it. I was very angry because it was unfair, because I did the whole modeling in my entry. I love Poser, and use it a lot in my work and for some "recreational" images, but I really hated the program in that moment. Just a natural human reaction that I corrected later. The artist who uses Poser doesn't have to prove anything to nobody, but those who try to fool people around aren't only destroying their reputation, they make other people say: "aw no, it's ONLY Poser" and that affects a lot of genuine artist. Sorry for my bad english

Ooops, "Recreational" means for my personal joy (the first thing I'm defending and I call it recreational, sorry :P). I don't consider myself an artist, I'm a graphic designer.

"I don't consider myself an artist, I'm a graphic designer." I'm a graphic/web designer, too. I do consider good design to be an art, but again, that's another argument. ;-) bonni

Most of the flaming in that thread is due to "Strike" lying about the origin of the mesh he used, but you see a lot of Poser bashing and weird opinions about "true art" as well. It always strike me that people in the hard-core modelling forums always confuse "art" with "technical craftmanship". "Art" is the result. Regardless of what kind of craftmanship used used to make the art. Yoy can be a great modeller and make lousy art. You can also be a lousy modeller with a great eye for making fantastic art. I sometimes wonder if these "3D modelling purists" considers Leonardo da Vinci a lousy artists just because he didn't tailor Mona Lisas dress himself. "What?? He let a tailor do the dress?? He used another persons work in his painting?? He's not an artist!!!"

Hehe, between you and me, I see my work as art, despite what my less sophysticated clients may think ;) Sergio

You're a blasphemer, segart! You are herebye condemned to eternal NVIATWAS rendering! ;-)

well so if i understand, if you ever want to dare make any digital art, you have to be a 3d modeller all by yourself ? means people not making their own 3d objetcs and charaters are just morons or unskilled dumb loosers ? then i guess many talented people here dont worth a crap :( i dont subscribe to such point of view. no one can master each and every aspects involved into digital art or any kind. You can TRY to get some skill in all but you'll be rather limited in each. i rather focus on what i can learn and do by myself, and use quality work of others on fields/areas i am lacking...

i forgot to sum up all/some aspects you need to master for making poser digital art: 3d modelling (so they told :) posing lighting (especially with the lousy p4 light system afaiac) texturing (making your own i suppose :) camera handling postworking oh and also imagination :) (yes i swear you need it :)

Before condemning all the CGTalk folk perhaps one should look more closely. They actually had a poll regarding the use of Poser. 12.6% thought Poser should be banned at CGTalk. 25.2% said they only objected if someone used an available Poser model but claimed to have modeled it themselves. 11.81% said they didn't care if one did or did not use Poser. And so on... The poll allowed only a limited set of responses. However, if one sorts them into those against Poser and those who have no objection (provided one does not pretend to have modeled a figure one did not) then 84.18% see no particular problem with using Poser. It was a relatively small poll but nevertheless does not support a general anti-Poser attitude. I dare say that if one were to peruse the various fora here at Renderosity one would also find about 16% of the members are Poser-negative. Like Renderosity, CGTalk has a variety of fora dedicated to particular subjects. Understandably, their members tend to object when another's work is claimed as one's own. At Renderosity we have seen people make minor changes to Poser textures and say that it is their original work. We have seen the same thing done with actual models. And hardly a day goes by that someone doesn't serve notice that someone else has posted other peoples' imagery as their own. In all cases the members here rise in righteous indignation and worse. How is this any different than what goes on at CGTalk? This is not the first time I have read complaints here about the perceived attitude at CGTalk. It seems to me that these complaints may be as bigoted as what we claim goes on over there.

in this case i admit it was different, of course, but this thread comes shortly after another thread about another website's antiposer (epilog.net if i remember) and it surprised me to still hear always same reasons/arguments

Certainly there is no denying that different individual cases are, well, different (grin.) But even when the apparently overwhelming majority is negative one must remember that this is only the vocal majority. It may well be that 98% of the group doesn't give a damn but felt no need to say so. I suppose it's like a two party government election. One claims a majority win because they got 51% of the votes so brag that over half of the population supports them. But in fact, over 87% of the population did not vote for them. In the end, we still don't know what most of us think. Half of the time I don't even know what I think- LOL!

This is the same Strike who once came in here and knocked us all saying that he modelled everything from scratch and wouldn't touch Poser with a bargepole - right? What a muppet!

You can be a great modeler and a crappy artist. You can be a great artist and a crappy modeler. Which makes the best art?! And who's to decide what's art? Personally I do not consider something like Miro's scribblings as art. I don't like "art" that looks like it's made by a threee year old, but some do. I look at it and see "the emperor's new clothes" - things noone really likes but noone dares to say it out loud. I don't make "art". From time to time I - with sheer luck - can produce a pretty picture, but I do not consider it art. But that doesn't mean my JOY of making it is any less.