If you read the contest rules, it clearly states:

"HOW THE WINNERS WILL BE DETERMINED? Selected judges from our sponsors will vote to determine the winning entries, and the winners will be announced on September 30, 2003."

So, what happened was that if you happened to come to the forum, you could vote but shouldn't have been up to the sponsor judges to decide on the winner from the 35 entries?

If you were going to have a pre-vote, and that pre-vote would be from the forum here, then I think that should have been clearly stated in the rules at the very beginning of the contest.

Just my opinion of course but this procedure just doesn't sit well with me.

Irene

I'm sorry Irene, but at e-onsoftware the people are so busy at this moment, that I cannot ask them to see 36 images. That's why we did a pre-vote to give them less trouble. I hope this is understandable. Guitta

and, Irene, I could not preview this "busy" problem when I started the contest.

I too am upset by this prevote. If you didn't happen to come here and send all your friends then you probably didn't get in the top 10. If the folks at Eon agreed to be the judges then they should see all the entries. It would not take them all that long and I think it is a crime that they will not see all of the entries. Another reason for me to avoid contests and challenges at Renderosity.... I often submit an entry, never expect to win because I often miss the "vote time". Many people have busy lives and don't live at Renderosity.

I think the voted images are deserving the points they got:-)

Guitta, I am not complaining that the voted images are deserving the points they received - that is NOT the issue. Your rules specifically stated that JUDGES of the sponsors would choose the winner - this is vastly different than allowing forum members to vote because 1. You could ask a lot of your friends to vote for you. 2. Not everyone who entered comes to the forum every day. 3. It gives contests a bitter taste when you change the rules This was a big contest with major prizes, not a monthly challenge. Did E-on tell you at the beginning of the contest that they were too busy to judge 35 images (and that's another bone of contention with me - you stated 35 images, now you say 36???? - just how many are we talking about? I run contests and the sponsors are more than happy to review and judge the entries, in the past we have have 177 for a Valentines Contest. It just gives out the wrong impression when you run a contest this way. I know you work hard - but we all do - if you are going to run a contest, then don't change the rules in mid-stream.

I'm puzzled, somehow I knew that the entries would be whittled down to 10 and submitted to the sponsors, but try as I might, I cannot find the forum post where I read that this would be the case. The contest rules were not edited by any chance?

Here it is. Noboday said anything when I announced it, nor during the 2 days votes were going on. And now you come. A little late, isn't it?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12368&Form.ShowMessage=1452060

Strange, I thought I knew at the start that you would be submitting 10 images to the sponsors. Must be in a time warp somehow 'cos that's the post I was thinking of. I didn't find the post in the link because I was searching for the post around Aug 25th when the contest started. Hmm... memories failing me big style today, must be a sign of something, if I could only remember what... :)

I have to chime in on this one and say I agree with the overall sentiment. The pre-vote was just announced after the contest had ended, according to the contest rules. What is posted in the forum should be considered non-issue as pre-vote should have been stated up-front. If e-on agreed to judge it and they had a limit as to how many images they would be willing to look at, then it should have been stated in advance. Then folks would have been aware of the pre-vote. If not, e-on should review all the images and judge that way. Irene has some valid points and I 100% agree with her. Guitta, don't get me wrong, this is not about sour grapes as I did not anticipate winning. I was mainly looking to get my work out there and seen. However, I don't believe it's fair to change the rules at the end of the contest. If you see two images in a contest and both are exceptionally good, would you not vote for one if it were a friend of yours? IMHO, that takes a few of us out of the race who do not have a huge friend base here to login and vote for them. Just my 2 cents.

The best is, not to do contests at all:-). There is no obligation for a mod to do contests. Less work for me to write to the donators for the prices and no problems from members. I explained already why I did so, try to understand. I was thinking to do another contest in December, but I will relly consider not to do so.

Now that I know that the rules don't always apply, I know not to enter any more contests here. If the rules are not going to apply, what is the point? Whether or not you choose to have more contests is up to you, however, it would be nice if you stuck to the rules that were posted. Thank you anyway for the opportunity.

I have written to e-onsoftware about this story and asked them to consider all 36 images. IMHO it would wonder me their selection is different, but who knows:-).

I think the mod here has made the right decision to send ALL 36 images to E-On to judge. Busy or not, how long does it take to look at 36 entries? Take a coffee break and make a choice. After all, they agreed to be judges correct?

Guitta - you're missing the point. The point is that there was no pre-vote stated in advance and that all images would be viewed by the judges. The only thing I'm asking here is that the contest follow the rules and the format stated. I'm not asking to be treated special and I'm not asking that my entry get any more of an advantage than anyone else. The same images may indeed win. Again, this is not about sour grapes, this about the contest following the stated rules. Irene's point, unless I'm way off base, is that the pre-vote is more along the lines of a popularity contest, not actually being judged by your talent. I agree. Assuming the judges have no knowledge of who entered what image and are judging based on what they see and not who they know; the contest is indeed fair. With all that said and done, the same images may actually be the ones to win, but at least I don't feel like a lost a popularity contest. Apologies if I appear to be difficult, but I really feel strongly about this.

I wholeheartedly agree 100% with Irene, which is why I don't bother with contests here, and do so elsewhere!

Guitta, please do not consider this a personal attack. and to say no more contests is maybe not the route to go. As many VUE enthusiasts enjoy to show their work here. It is just a case of not changing the rules as you go. I know, for one, that I was given direction that it seemed I was not following the rules. I changed my render accordingly. Only to find all was well in the first palce. Don't take this to heart. I know all of this is a great deal of work. And I, do appreciate it. It is more a situation of the judges not coming through for you. Let's just move on and in the future if there is a pre vote it could be announced so all could participate. We know that in contests at Rosity the more people you know the better the chances. In the mean time Guitta, keep the faith. I know you made this decision in the best interest of the sponsor, but here is also the entrant to consider. Thanks, for all of your hard work and time. Not grovelling, here it is sincere

Okay, EVERYONE take a chill pill! This was supposed to be just for fun, remember? Johannah

Gebe, Thanks for your hard work on the Sept. Contest.!!! Please don't let a bunch of whiners make you change your mind about future contests. It is hard work, to do these and again I want to say thanks. I look forward to the next one in December....Hopefully James (timefighter)

Guitta, I hope you will re-consider your idea to avoid december contest ... People are happy to do these contest, they are very motivated, thus they can improve their skill in composition, texturing, rendering more efficiently. Thats what is interesting for Vue community and for you. You have surely taken the good decision in submitting all the pics to the judges. You still are for me a very good mod, hope all here are understanding that point, especially the new Vue users. Not easy to organize contests, having to write the rules, to spend time to find sponsors, to upload the pictures, to answer the questions, not only related to the contest but also to the Vue forum (to do the same for the challenge!!!)... I've not participated to the contest, it's easy for me to say that the problem beeing solved, it is very important to sustain Guitta and her work, and not to discourage her IMHO, Yves

I would hope that Guitta, as well as all who read this, understand that I was not in anyway attacking her position as moderator or the wonderful job that she does in this forum. I was not in any way trying to discourage her but only trying to point out why I thought something was not as it should be. I apologize if I have offended her because that was certainly not my intent. I certainly am not a whiner, nor or any of the other message writers who spoke in support of my message and if someone cannot express an adult opinion without being called names, that is truly unfortunate. :) Irene

It is very easy to criticise but it far harder to actually "do". I have run forums (forii?), clubs, websites etc. and moderated boards too. It's often a thankless task which takes many hours a week. IMH(but experienced)O Guitta's doing a fine job so cut her some slack. OK?

I know I moan about E-On's implementation of OpenGL in Vue but, credit where it's due, E-On are rare amongst software companies as they actually take an active interest in what we say and do here. Just check out the other forums and spot the involvement of the software producers there..... Doing a little to cut down their workload is fair exchange for their input here.

Less whingin', more renderin'.

Simple solution would be to make the pre vote part of the rules from the begining. That way all would know.

What a very long discussion :-) I can't imagine that anyone would change any rules unless the situation about the contest called for it. And Guitta did explain why she did what she found right at the time. I agree that it's not fair to change rules in a contest that has already started - but I do understand that it sometimes can be nessesary - as life is rather be unpredictable. Guitta - you are always willing to help people out - even dim beginners like me! Don't loose courage! Anette/Pixpax

Well, since I seem to be the 'bad guy' here, let me say the following - first - Guitta, I don't fully understand all that goes into being a mod here. This is not a personal attack on you at all. It was a statement pointing out that it was unfair to change the rules of the contest, in mid-contest. That is all. That is not whining, that is asking for the contest to stick to the stated rules. I appreciate your time and talent here as you have helped me out before, as well as many others. There was not really a need to respond like a child and say if you don't like it, I'll take my toys and play elsewhere and there will be no more contests. You don't need to punish the masses on my account. I realize that it takes time to set this stuff up, I've done charity work before and I've run entire fundraisers on a wing and a prayer, with little help, but overall it was worth it. I would tend to think that you would not continue to do this, if you did not receive something out of it enjoyable for yourself. With that said, I thank you for asking the folks at e-on to review all of the images, as stated. If you feel that I have attacked you personally, I did not intend that and I apologize. In the meantime, the resident 'bad guy' here will now disappear and you will have one less person competing in contests.

Elektra, we are all free to do what we want. But you should continue to participate to contests and challenge : you are not a bad guy, nobody here is against you IMHO ;=) Yves

I don't see any bad guys at all in this discussion. That people don't agree doesn't mean that things are black or white - or wrong or right.

Yves - thanks. Appreciate the support. Just noticing your name, are you a merchant here? Annette - I agree. Life itself is never black or white. :-)

Communication issues again? All things should be clearly stated and adhered too IMHO. Making a pre list or a pre vote or a list of images that should be considered over others, making featured artist the spot light to encourage others to view them, all should have a clear meaning and be well communicated or feelings will get hurt. Fairness is a balancing act however and is always in question here it seems. Those that have language barriers should consult with those that don't. This is indicative of a few un-intended problems that arise here on a regular basis. When members cry out for fairness I certainly would not think it to be personal by any means. Keep it fair to all IMHO. Thanks, shoop

No I'm not at all a merchant ;=) OT : I often build models but am too lazy to upload it to my site and propose them for free :=) Yves

Ok, I think this should stop here! Contests keeps me motivated, unfortunately I didn't had time to do something for this month. But I do agree with Irish totally. Since, Guitta did told e-on to take care of the problem; it's done and over with! Forum is all about conversations, advice or debate; here aren't any good guys, bad guys. So, certainly no need to disappear over a conversation! AND calling someone "whiner" was totally uncalled for and I'm a bit surprised! Well, that's that ... Now Guitta, I'm sincerely hoping you will do the December contest! And Finally, Amen to "rds" for those nice words! Let's take it easy everyone!