I was going to comment that Michael 3 looks too much like Victoria 3, but now I will just shut up.

I think Robt had a LOT to do with how well the Freak came out! NOW- Just think if DAZ had STARTED their M3 promo campaign with some FREAK images??? Wouldn't THAT have quieted a LOT of CONCERNS about M3's BASIC girly-look? It seems to me DAZ did it BACKWARDS- But thankfully the FREAK really gives us the MANLY DUDE the rest of us wanted. Thanks Dann Farr and Robt Whiz!

It's no use; I have to say it. "Real" men are guys like Albert Schweitzer, Silas Soule, Abe Lincoln, Martin Luther King (Jr & Sr), Nelson Mandela, Titian, Goya, Robert Oppenheimer, Edward R. Murrow, and the anonymous Finnish emigrant who dipped his hands in Lake Superior so they would freeze to the oars and he could row his son back to shore. "Manly" lions (and yeah, the females do all the work), tigers, wolves (and yeah, the females have absolute equality, with tigers and wolves), stags and stallions are not bloody sponges of nearly immobile meat. Aspire to be a gorilla? They are actually gentle, bored, and boring, more interested in cabbage than in whomping their fellow meat piles, and the family jewels are nothing to get excited about. A bull? They are only good for one thing, and that can be done more effectively with a syringe. Sorry. I find the phrase "girly man" very, very offensive, even used in jest. It manages, in two words, to insult both sexes.

Well said, Mickmca!!! Well said indeed! applaus

ok... please explain to me as an obviously insensitive male, why that girly man phrase is so offensive and insulting. And I'm not looking for a fight...just would like to hear why this affects you so....Mickmca and ernyoka1.... Perhaps you guys can enlighten me so I can change myself, to make me a better human being.... I'm serious here... I have been brainwashed by the great American old west, tough guy, kill or be killed syndrome....manly men and womanly women....where men are men. I think a lot of people use terms and phrases without really thinking of their implications to individuals, races, cultures, and societies. We need a lot of sensitivity training. My use of the phrase here had no thought other than the fact the big brute was sticking up for his cousin, who was called a girly man.

Hmm... I never thought M3 looked like a girl. Nice pics, though. And, as a sensitive male, I don't find the term "girly-man" offensive. But I do find most of what mickmca said offensive, insensitive, and largely incorrect.

Ok, assuming you are serious: The phrase implies that a man who is like a woman is contemptible. Just like calling someone a pig insults them and carries the message that pigs are contemptible, the phrase insults both women and men. What really gets to me is the notion that "manhood" is a matter of steroids and violence, which the image states pretty clearly, just as all the male fantasies of Poser girls suggest that "womanhood" is a matter of biologically unstable mammary growth, skinny ankles, and a desire to be protected. The real men I have known were not slab-fisted Hulks with the brains of a Pamplona bull. My father weighed 120 pounds, thanks to a Harley that fell on his abdomen when he was a teen, and when he died he was buried with full honors for winning the Congressional Medal of Honor. He had gone onto a battlefield to rescue wounded comrades. He refused to talk about his war experiences. "Real men don't," he said once. Charles Bronson, in The Magnificent Seven, has the last word on "real men." The little peasant boys tell Bernardo (Bronson) that they want to grow up to be real men, like the gunfighters, not cowardly nobodies like their fathers. Bernardo reprimands them and says, in effect, "Your parents sacrifice everything for you. Your fathers have the courage to endure their lives for your sake. They are the real men, not us. Don't you dare disrespect them!" Shane makes the same point, contrasting Joe Starrett with the sterile male fantasy represented by Shane. I suppose this is taking all this stuff too seriously. But we live in a world where children want to grow up to be Britney Spears and Steve Austin. And pre-adolescent fantasies like 90% of the Poser universe not only offer no alternatives, they enthusiastically encourage this. Done now. Mick

I see your point Mick.... maybe a bit too seriously, at least for here, but no doubt in my mind that the way we portray men and women has a direct impact on how societies operate... In the U.S., men are raised to be macho.... to be a MAN...and that usually means not displaying your "feminine" side. No showing emotion...cold , calculating. Things are slowly changing..you see images of men crying now...but in the same breath, I've seen plenty of guys on TV.live on the local news, trying desparately to hide the fact they need to cry...they don't want anyone seeing them being "weak"..when this is actually a showing of strength and caring... I understand fully what you mean... I'm not a macho man myself...I have no qualms showing my emotions, and do so as they come. In fact, I'm a bit too honest..I do not believe in lying to others, if its politically correct or not..but for the most part, our society doesn't want to hear the truth..they want everything glazed over and sterile.

not all women like Macho men, as a matter of fact most macho men are so stuck on themselves that most women don't want anything to do with a man like this. I would much rather have a sensative, understanding, and careing than one who only cares about his "Manhood' and its showing enough..

You heard them, Dave-So, Go back to the M3 base girly-man and give us a teary-eyed, sensitive "male". No muscle-morphs or jaw-morphs- just your basic Whimper-Boy! Then they can all feel really good that they have you back in your place!

Why do i get the feeling that this may become very interesting shortly......?

It's already started. Check out the thread "Too girly" up there...

OK I better chime in too then :o) First: Renders are NOT real people. I have made loads of bulky renders with the freak these last 24 hours or so, since I got him and I think he's way cool (more than I had thought in advance actually) BUT remember, he's a FREAK! He is NOT a real man, nor is he portraying a real man. To be honest, pictures of bulky bodybuilders makes me wanna run away screaming to the nearest place where I can PUKE over that gross un-natural pile of muscles. Same with Vickies, with or without clothes and temples: Those E-size breasts makes me sick and (sorry guys) I can't help feeling pity for the people who has such a freak as an apparent idol. But well, perhaps it's just the nature of fantasy, to exaggerate, and that's fine with me, AS LONG as it doesn't lead people to believe that this is the way you SHOULD look, male or female. There are far too many anorektic(sp?) girls in today's society who starve themselves in an attempt to look like popstars or the like. Far too many boys/men take steroids to bulk up their muscles, thereby ruining their ability to actually BE men when it comes to the more "important" parts of male anatomy. And thay're shortening their lives drastically at the same time, and worst thing: They doesn't seem to CARE. BUT. All things aside, I think the initial pictures in this post are great and please do not think I didn't get the joke, I was actually thinking of doing a "who are you calling "girly" picture myself", but then Dave-So beat me to it :o) so I'll go back to working on my neanderthal morph.. Sorry if I was part of derailing this thread, Dave-So. It really wasn't my intent, but Mickmca DID say a few really good points :o)

agreed... wait till you see the next one.. and be forwarned..its a joke..ok ?

so I'll go back to working on my neanderthal morph..<< Cool ...

hmm, how did this turn out to be a debate?? anyway, debates are always interesting...

my opinion regarding poser renders are that they are, indeed, just FANTASIES, they just carry with them a message wanting to be expressed (generally).. and usually when you wanna convey a message in images, you need exaggeration, so the message can come across clearly.

Like, some of my female characters have these humoungous breasts because their characters require them, but then some of my other female characters are rather "normal"... and all my male characters look feminine so far, but that was done on purpose (heh) (I'm talking aesthetics here, this by no means was an offensive comment).

my point is that I don't think I'm being sexist by depicting women with large breasts... in my case, it's just a matter of characterization, something to get the message across, like "ok, here's a woman who's really concerned in making her breasts look large, so what kind of person is that?"... or even, she may have NATURAL large breasts and has to deal with it, as many women do (have you heard of breast reductions?)... so, when you see one of my female characters, you'll have your chance of making your own opinion about it, and anyway, the character building will be made in the comic I'm using them on (forgot to mention that last bit).

In the end, I wouldn't worry so much about what "being manly" is or "being womanly" is... something in a U2's video woke up YEARS ago "EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG". Don't confuse being a "real man" or "real woman" with being a real and decent human being, which is all that matters at the end.

Max

A fundamental principle of fantasy is, you are what you eat. Dave made my point was well as I did, in his reply. 'Nuff said. Mick