As Renderosity continues to grow and evolve we often find it necessary to modify existing policies and procedures based on feedback from the community. Renderositys copyright policy has been a topic of concern for our buyers, merchants and copyright holders. Based on the generous feedback we received our copyright policy was tightened up on 8/26/03. Upon further evaluation we were able to determine that some new policies were still needed to help increase customer confidence when purchasing products in the MarketPlace. With that being said we have implemented a New Merchant Policy. This policy is being put into place in order to help protect our customers, our merchants, copyright holders and Renderosity if potential copyright infringements occur in the MarketPlace. It is also designed to limit MarketPlace flooding and help increase the quality of products from New Merchants until they become an established merchant. Determination of established merchants will be based on Gross Sales exceeding $300. Overview of changes: New Merchants and existing merchants that havent provided us with their payment information will be required to provide this information prior to uploading a new product. This will allow us to detect previously banned merchants trying to reenter the MarketPlace using a clone account. New Merchants are limited to 3 products in the MarketPlace until they exceed $300 in Gross Sales. Existing merchants with Gross Sale under $300.00 and more than 3 products will be allowed to leave their current product line in the MarketPlace but will not be able to upload any new products until Gross Sales exceed $300.00. Once Gross Sales exceed $300 the upload restriction is lifted. In-Store Credit purchases for New Merchants will not be available for 45 days. Monthly payments for New Merchants will be held for a minimum 45 days (maximum 76 days depending on date of first product release). The Merchants first check will include payments for all previous sales. Future payments will follow our standard payment schedule. Existing merchants are exempt from the 45 day payment hold. Thank you, The Renderosity Admin Team

why a 45 day hold? while this doesn't involve me or my store I am just curious as to the 45-76 day till 1st payment thing.

R'osity will be paying the Merchants a common interest rate (ie, average Savings account rates) on the held money, compounded monthly, right?

IIRC, it is the law in the US whenever compensation is withheld for long periods of time - to compensate the rightful owner of any interest they may have lost due to it being withheld against their will.

45 day hold : To help protect our customers, our merchants, copyright holders and Renderosity if potential copyright infringements occur in the MarketPlace until the merchant becomes established. I will have to let our accounitng dept respond to the interest question. Clint

No, interest is not paid for a 45 day hold since it is not considered a long period of time. Sales are paid out once a month, so this is only a 15 day extension. The 45 day is not just for potential copyright issues, but helps to ensure that only members that are serious about becoming a merchant upload items into the Marketplace, which can also have a positive affect on quality.

Thanks Jen. Clint

'To help protect our customers, our merchants, copyright holders and Renderosity if potential copyright infringements occur in the MarketPlace until the merchant becomes established.' and after that period if a copyright infringement happens? then.....?

It depends on the day (and month) an item is released (because payments are made by the 7th of each month; they're usually completed around the 3rd or 4th). Example: if an item was released Jan 15th, their 1st payment would be processed in April (which would be 76 days in years with only 28 days in Feb)--because Feb being only 28 day they'd miss the payment for the beginning of March. In other months, items released on the 17th could have 75 days until 1st payment (depending on how many days are in the month). After that, the same copyright policy exist, the 45 day hold is to "help". A good percentage of copyright concerns are found within the first 45 days of when a member becomes a merchant.

hehehe...cross posted :)

and the other percentage that is not in the first 45 days? how would that be handled if the situation ever arises?

By whom is 45 days not considered a long time ? I mean - that money does accrue interest - If I simplify the math, it'd go like this: 10 new merchants sell for 10 dollars a day per seven days: 10 x 7= 70 70 x 10 = 700 They are selling nice little earners, and these 10 sell for 10 dollars a day per month - 30 generic days: 10 x 30 = 300 x 10 = 3 000 That's dollars into the rendo account before they get dispatched, and that money is accruing interest before it gets dispatched. My bank gives me a 7.5 % interest rate on my normal transaction account a month - I am assuming rendo has an equally good deal with their bank. That'd mean that in addition to the cut, you'd be making money on the interest of the newcomers as well. I can understand that with payroll expenses, bandwidth expenses, running expenditures and all the money needed to run a big site, you can't dole out interest on every little thing that enters into your account and out to the merchants - even automated it would take time to go over it and do the math. However, I would very much like to suggest that the new merchants get interest on the money for the waiting period as an extra little incentive and a thank you for their patience. And another question: New merchants and a copyright quarantine: What if Cyberstretch or Illusions decided to set up shop ? They've been members of rendo as long as I have been I think, and it's highly dubious they'd pull any copyright crap. Do the rules apply to well-established members too ? ~S

"Do the rules apply to well-established members too ?" Yes, The rules apply to anyone that is a New Merchant. Clint

Trust me, under these conditions I would never consider opening a Merchant account here when/if I decided to go commercial. It is obvious from the various posts that R'osity cares more about itself than either the Merchants (as evidenced by this and other ludicrous policies) and Consumers (as evidenced by the lack of support during copyright infringement cases). IM(NS)HO, R'osity is "policying" itself into non-existence. R'osity gets to keep 100% of the sales for a 45-76 day period, while gaining interest, and would not consider paying Merchants their fair share as if the payment was made on time as before? Smells of financial troubles to me, nevermind potentially illegal/improper business practices as well.

So what happens to money that's in the account and has been marked "cash for copyright violation" ? Does the money go back to the buyers, does the money go back to the person who's copyright has been violated, or does one actually have to go to court to get the money out of an assumed escrow ? I can understand the demand for a better quality of items and a 3 item limit. Don't like it, but I can understand it. What I do NOT understand, is why Rendo is taking a route like this - would it not be easier if the merchants or wannabe merchants proved the item was theirs in the first place ? i.e a digital marking process in meshes or a watermark in textures or a small digital detail that's always the same on a texture ? ~S

I don't see how this helps people that buy stolen goods. Do they get their money back entirely? Any part of the money that you're holding for so long? There really should be some sort of interest rate.

I'd love to know where you're getting 7.5% interest. We do not put the funds held for 45 days in a savings, which wouldn't matter considering the current rate at our bank (in the US) is only .5%. Although your mathmatical assumptions are not realistic, even if there were $3,000 unpaid times the .5% that would only be $15. Now, divide that by the 10 (or more) merchants (that accumulated the $3,000) and it would be $1.50 each merchant in interest. Any interest earned is easily off-set by the administrative time it would take to calculate the interest earned on each account. These helps the buyers by being able to offer exchanges for items where copyright concerns exist. "New merchants and a copyright quarantine: What if Cyberstretch or Illusions decided to set up shop ? They've been members of rendo as long as I have been I think, and it's highly dubious they'd pull any copyright crap. Do the rules apply to well-established members too ? " I'd be very comfortable with CS or illusions becoming merchants because I know they understand copyright laws, our policies and are well established in our community. However, yes, the rules apply to all new merchants. Mainly, because the policy is not just for copyright issues. It's to make sure that new merchants are serious, that they provide quality items, and deter them from trying to make a fast buck off someone elses work. The 45 hold policy is outside of the copyright escrow. Funds put into escrow for copyright issues waits for a judgement from a court of law. Given our newer copyright policies, thankfully, we haven't had to use the copyright escrow. And, we will continue to work to resolve copyright issues so that we won't have to.

"Any interest earned is easily off-set by the administrative time it would take to calculate the interest earned on each account."

And where would this be an issue? The Administrators are the ones withholding the funds, not the Merchant, and are responsible for any overhead caused by the policy.

Regardless if the interest is $0.01 or $100.00, the Merchants are losing out on the ability to earn interest on money that is lawfully theirs and can expect to be compensated.

Besides, modern computers can make trillions of calculations per second, so you are overstating the complexity to, seemingly, divert attention from the issue.

'The 45 hold policy is outside of the copyright escrow. Funds put into escrow for copyright issues waits for a judgement from a court of law. Given our newer copyright policies, thankfully, we haven't had to use the copyright escrow. And, we will continue to work to resolve copyright issues so that we won't have to. ' what policy? todate I've seen no conclusive policy on dealing with copyright issues, and am still awaiting an answer on the question I place above.

I bank in Norway, since I live here - Skandiabanken is the name of the bank. I never said my estimates were realistic, that wasn't the issue in the first place - I wanted information on how this is handled and set an example. But still - I really think it's unfair to the people who've bought an item that should not have been sold in the first place, and the people who've had their meshes or textures nicked to have to go to a court of law in the US in order to get compensation - who the hell is going to be able to afford that ? Who's going to bother ? What if any of the European crowd would like to take this to court, but can't due to financial constraints ? How do merchants currently prove they are copyright holders ? ~S

well, its a way better policy than 'stuff it' I have to admit. I don't find fault with this... long time in coming.

It's not difficult to reach $300 gross sales with 3 products. It's a good policy change.

Regarding the copyright policy though, it's been said that coupons would be used to compensate people who have bought infringed items. (tim's interview) Is that still in the plans and if so, when?

I love how you guys rewrite the merchant agreement as you go to reflect what YOU need at the time. Even tho you require that merchants agree to it at the time of setting up their stores (not knowing that it's gonna change at any time with or without their input, and usually to their detriment). Dirty pool. I'm so glad I pulled my store... Laurie

Actually, Laurie, how the hell are they supposed to pay gipped people off if they allow them to spend the money first? I was one of the people that originally suggested targeting the new merchants, and I am delighted to see a suggestion I had vocally made here utilised in some fashion, finally... But then, I'm not a merchant here, I just buy stuff. What I would like to see, is a clear delination of how the "gipped" customers who bought infringed product will be recompensated. Be that coupons, whatever. Kendra is right, and I'd like to know the answer to that question, too.

Anyone want to walk a mile in Rosity's et al shoes? These financial changes are long time coming. Anyone else own/operate a site as: enormous, difficult to manage/update ((HEY GUYS! .NET)) expensive to run, and every soul that enters can do ALOT for free. Rosity is SLOWLY turning the corner from Freeware Community to Business. So what? Don't like it, leave. Good luck finding the same exposure though. It also seems that they are trying to break new ground in copyright protection, online sales implimentation, and consumer safety. At least give all this some time to run it's course and give a result. And $300 ain't alot. sheesh

calzgal: "It also seems that they are trying to break new ground in copyright protection, online sales implimentation, and consumer safety." Huh?!? Try this for "breaking new ground" ... when a stolen product is sold to a customer, give the customer a refund. Period. Eat the loss if you have to. Other sites do. Much, much, much smaller sites too. ;) Russell

"And $300 ain't alot. sheesh" And this place AIN'T Tiffany's...sheesh Laurie

To rcook : I fail to see why you think that this thread is any of your business, since it doesnt affect you ... Thomas

To smitthms: How Rude. He is still part of the Community, and he was here from long ago. He used to work here! So how the heck do these changes help me as a customer?!!! I buy a $20 texture. It turns out to be stolen. Does Renderosity give me back my 20 dollars? Or do I get a coupon for 20 dollars? Does the merchant that was stolen from get anything? Does the merchant that did the stealing get banned?

Caly : KEY words being Used to Work Here. Well... he's NOT a merchant here anymore, & doesn't work here anymore, by his own choice, so, why is it any of his business ? The same guy who, everytime a change happens @ Rosity, him or his wife jump in & slam Rosity & claim thier site is better & would NEVER do things like this, etc, etc, etc, yadda yadda yadda. If his site is soooo good, why didn't ALL of Rosity's merchants leave & go over there ? Thomas

please can the flaming... Rcook had a point, one I've been trying to get an answer on. we still have not had a definitive answer of HOW this site handles the question of refunds to those buying items that later are found to be pirated. Because of this, I will not purchase from this site. I have no guarentees you see.

Fact is NOT a flame. Thomas

whatever... I'm not here to argue with you... just to find out how we the buyers are to be protected.

Hostile, much? He's still a community member. The end. Yes, I want answers to the important questions and agree with Kaibach.

Oops! Sorry I posted (in #18) how it helps buyers, but in re-reading it, I realize I wasn't very clear. This policy helps buyers because we'll be offering exchanges for items that bought that later are found to have copyright concerns.

thanks for clearing that a bit... this is beyond the 45 day new merchants time? eg: a new merchant clears this grace period, but later posts a questionable product that has to be 'pulled' does the buyer still get the protection of a exchange?

Yes, the exchanges (through gift certificates) would be available beyond the 45 day new merchant grace period.

smithms - I appreciate that you're defending this site, but rcook is still welcome here as a member, even if he has a competing site. It's okay to have dissenting opinions, even if they're strongly worded, so long as they stay within the TOS. Thanks, Crescent

Crescent, I made sure NOT to violate the TOS, & say what I had to say. Thomas

Yep, I never said you violated the TOS. rcook hasn't, either, so he's welcome to voice his opinions here, just as you are. Cheers!

About that TOS. Work with me a minute. Didn't someone get an image pulled because it had piercings on the nipples or something? Didn't someone else have an image pulled because it had a hand lightly covering a breast? And this TOS is supposed to cover everyone equally, yes?

If the above questions are answered in the positive, then one can find that smitthms' gallery appears to have been exempt so far. An exchange is a good start. :) However, if the thief had already been paid, will the original creator get any of the profit?

Caly - I don't know what images you're referring to when you talk about pictures yanked due to nipple piercings. If you give me a specific example (here or by IM), I'll ask about it. As for the hand on the breast, pictures that feature that have been debated back and forth and at best they hit that gray area - the difference between contact versus arousal. Again, without a specific example, I can't give you a better answer than that. If you do see an image that you feel is against the TOS, please contact myself or one of the other Mods and we'll be happy to take a look no matter whose gallery it is. We try, but we don't catch every violation. As for the merchant payment issue, I have no control over the RMP portion of the site so I don't have an answer there, either. I'm not trying to weasel out of answering you. I'm not going to make guesses on "an image pulled because it had piercings on the nipples or something" nor images by "someone else" because there isn't enough infomation for me to answer you. It's not fair to anyone for me to guess or make up an answer for those questions. As well, I'm sure the admins who are in charge of the RMP are still watching the thread so it's best if they answer your question about the original creator being paid due to losses from rip-offs because they do know the policy. If you'd like, I'd be glad to specifically post your question in the back room as well to bring it to their attention. Thanks, Cres

Ok, now when will this exchange policy go into affect and will it only cover those who've lost money after the change or will it cover anyone who's bought something they can't use?

"I fail to see why you think that this thread is any of your business, since it doesnt affect you ..."

smithms, he simply made a point by stating that even smaller sites are able to refund on fraudulent purchases. If Russell hadn't said it someone would have. And like you say, a fact is not a flame. :)

Interesting concept but, your "shooting yourself in the foot" here. Suppose a merchant sends something to the Market Place here and another site. It take 5-7 days for it to get posted here while it's already posted at the other site and people are already buying it there. So, but the time you do get it in the Market Place here, everyone has bought it at the other site and you've lost those sales and money. I know, I've bought stuff elsewhere that was going to be here but because I found it at another site sooner, I bought it there.

smitthms, I find your comments to Russell to be very rude and completely inappropriate. Grow up a little and when you have the urge to post something like that, just sit on it for a minute and find a way to say what you want to say without being offensive.

It effective now, I just have to update the copyright policy and return policy to include it. The policy was meant for going forward, but anyone that has an item they feel is a copyright concern can email copyrights@renderosity.com and request a refund by gift certicate. The requests will be granted, with the only exception being if the accused has paid the copyright holder for the rights of buyers to use. Thanks, Jenifer

Ok, thank you Jeny.