Hi there, After a long talk on the phone about recent events I thought it might be helpful for some new people to see this now instead of getting burned later. When making products or freebies there are alot of common problems you see over the years so I wanted to share. Hope these help. ------------------------ Things not to do: Do NOT use anything you get from a friend or is a free download area because you will be held responsible and cannot ensure integrity of item Do Not think that people will not recognize their own work even if you don't Do Not Use meshes or elements from stores or sites like TurboSquid or 3D Cafe Do NOT use anything you did not make yourself or did not, providing it was sold with a developers liscence. Do NOT apologize with a lie once you are caught AGAIN do NOT use if if you did not make it yourself or purchased a liscence. Do NOT think an alias will hide your identity Do NOT think your friends won't rat you out. Do NOT use other people work as a base or launcing point unless you purchase a developers liscence. People lie. Do NOT purchase OR use any developers tools unless you have somethign in writing that goes with it and saved for record. ------------------------ How to Cover you butt with textures Do keep a folder inside your project folder containing all original images with a text document with links to sources. Do keep copies of liscences and screencaptured of authors of said materials in same folder Do Keep a summary text file with notes Do keep a ALPHA folder with pics are various stages of development. Freebies are NOT development tools If you bought it you only bought the right to use it, not the right to make stuff from it unless a developers liscence is sold with it. -------------------------------------------------------- Things to know If you are making a freebie and use pictures from sites or books(which isn't recommended) you cannot yell at people who use the same sources you did and think they ripped you off. If you have any skeletons in you texture closet be causreful about yelling at people for doing what you have done yourself in the past. The web is forever. Someone will know If you bought or downloaded a development item, other people ARE allowed to use it too. Don't claim it as your own. If you scan printed material like wallpaper, patterns, etc you CANNOT copyright them as your own. ----------------------------------------------- LIES to avoid using cuz they are tired and lame: "I used a freestuff texture but forgot the name and don't have it anymore" (oh yeah sooo believable) "I got it off another site" (your kidding right) "So and so did it so I thought it was ok" (very 6th grade) "I got the files from a friend and trusted them" (stupid) "I swear it is mine how dare you accuse me!!" (gas on the fire) "I could have done it myself but was trying to save time" (at someone elses expense?!?) --------------------------- Basically what irks me is people's ability to lie and avoid being honest to save their own pride. If you have been victimized you have options. 1) First gather your proof 2) Get the item pulled as quickly as possible 3) If on a freesite report the site to their service provider in case events still occur in the future 4) If a store, first get stores portions of profits. If store will not give you artists portion you would have to get that half based on stores half. Stores have broker agreements keeping the artist liable for damages. Store is still untimately liable. Make sure you get stores half of the money as well (Turbosquid,etc) 5) Keep records of names, alias, ISP, screencaps for every istance 6)Backup on disk. Save this to a text document for reference, but one last word of advice for merchants: Claiming ignorance will not protect you. If you want to make products professionally then there is a whole ballgame that goes with it. Hope this protects someone or prevents a future problem from ever happening.

If this board had a system like UBB/EZ boards I'd say this should be made sticky :) Some good advice there, it always suprices me how little tought people somethimes put into things like this. I recently had a discussion with somebody using one of John Malis' free models in a MOD for the game Morrowind. They never even bothered to ask John or even notify him of wath they were doing. Cheers, Axe

ok stupid question. I bought anglemoons texture resource set from poser pro{an amazing set wonderful go get it go get it go get it!!!}. do I need to get a -written- as in signed by hand paper deal to safe guard? I know their is a deally that comes with the package a readme but does it need to be in -writting-? your first part mentions development tools...that means texture resources right?

PheonixRising - THIS IS PERFECT - thank you for taking the time to create this, worded exactly right, and to the POINT. Mike and Sharen

DarkElegance, If there was ever a problem and you wanted to seek damages I would recommend a letter from either the company or artist, signed and mailed to you. A detailed readme with all contact info and names may surfice but anyone can type up something bogus in wordpad. You might want to see if something signed can be mailed to you. At the very least print out the readme and any correspondence on the matter through email. Follow up every phonecall with a summary email. Print and save all replies.

I don't currently sell anything in the marketplace, but I printed out a copy just in case that changes. Just had a discussion about this with one of the artists I write copy for. You need to be very careful about how you word things on a web site. Make sure you are up front about what it is you are selling and provide accurate descriptions of your products! Some of it may seem like common sense, but who ever bothers with that anymore? LOL Thanks for some good advice, hope you didn't have to learn all of it the hard way ;) Regards Lz

let's just say I have seen it all and have had all those excuses and more used on me. :)

How about: 7) Don't accuse people of theft on the forums and air dirty laundry before first discussing the issue offline with the concerned parties. In any event the forum isn't a soap opera. It could very well be a misunderstanding. Not everyone is a thief. 8) Don't make a big deal out of something that isn't.

I bought anglemoons texture resource set from poser pro{an amazing set wonderful go get it go get it go get it!!!}. do I need to get a -written- as in signed by hand paper deal to safe guard? Since it states on the web site (and I suspect in the readme) that you have permission to use this as a base for developing textures, just make sure you keep a copy of the license in case you're asked. For merchant resource bases, please make sure that you did make substantial modifications to them before uploading them, commercially or non-commercially. Just sticking a small mole by the left cheek and uploading that as your "new" texture could get you into trouble because the merchant resource can obviously be extracted from "your" texture. There's no hard-fast rule on how much you need to change with these kits, but use some common sense. If it's easy to tell what the base was, you probably need to work it some more. Thanks for the info, Anton! Cres

I know Turbosquid has a reputation for hosting overpriced items without checking first to see if they're stolen from some other mesh creator, but they apparently make some kind of effort to remove stolen items if notified by outsiders or other watchdogs. Telling people not to redistribute Turbosquid items as freebies is 100% correct, but maybe you should modify your statement so it can't be construed as using Renderosity to encourage a boycott of Turbosquid. Although they probably make plenty of money selling $795 basketballs and aren't worried about competition, it could be construed by a tricky, sneaky lawyer as "unfair trade practices".

Excellent, Anton. Excellent. :] Fish

Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/wiki/PublicWiki/CopyrightsAndEthics

bleah - typo. /P

.< ack guh this thread is making me cring! I was just curiouse I was not thinking of adding a mole and going walaaah! texture!{specially as I mainly wanted them to use for personal art not to sell but ok now any idea of tweeking out adding stuff and maybe making something for a marketplace just went straight out of my head...out went the marble textures} ack!!!! just was curiouse if it was suggested that even though a read me was inclosed to better to be safe then sorry. sorry for steping in this thread... Ill step out of it now and go take a shower somehow this thread now has turned slightly muddy and the originating post was much needed and well written but ..GUH

DarkElegance - I wasn't saying that you were. Since a lot of what Anton posted ought to be common sense, but apparently isn't, I posted a "this should be obvious" point as well. Cheers!

Dark - you can do whatever you want to items for your own personal use, just make sure that none of it gets mixed in with anything you intend to sell. HTH, /P

I don't know if I'll ever make anything good enough to sell, but this is good advice I will keep in mind. Thanks Anton. 8) Catlin

its ok it just seems the whole topic no matter which way you step is like a landmine field.O.O one side or the other is going to get a burr under the saddle. just kind or...ack.

Anton good advice and thanks for sharing, can never be too much said about this topic it should probably be part of the poser forum faq but that's my opinion. DarkElegance keep a copy of your payment reciept as well as any documentation from the web site with the readme giving you rights of use, also would be good if your really planning on using them for commercial use, even freebies to get a written statement from the original creator. YOU CANNOT COVER YOUR BUTT TO MUCH. if there is ever a dispute then it comes down to how much evidence to back up your claims of use you have. I had a right of use item with documentation and the product got pulled and the creator of the item started going after people saying he never gave rights of use. can get REAL sticky quickly. I never actually used the item and just trashed it as a loss, but some others got burned. this wasn't poser related, but it could very well happen. goes back to the rule of best thing to do is create anything you do by yourself then nobody but you has claim to it.

Hmmm ... Don't steal! Don't cheat! Don't lie! What a concept! Now, where have I seen that before ...... hmmmmmm ??? Thanks for the info Anton, it's good advice. cheers, dr geep ;=]

two questions: what about stuff found in public (and monitored/moderated areas) such as usenet groups (when i say public and monitored, i ask this because of many ISP are not mirroring all usenet groups and only let some filter through their nntp serv). I guess materials found here are just out of question to use... what about free of right or public domain materials ? in what extent can we use it in free or commercial items ? third question (yes i do not know how to count): when a freebie allow redistribution, modification and such (lets say MayaX copyleft licence for his freebie)s, can commercial item be made when using it in a base work, as long as additionnal work and ehancement are put in ? fourth question (oki gimme a break with maths), can i use free material (material stated to be free of use in non commercial uses) in another freebie i would make ? sounds lame questions, and i am sure that me asking this would even make me look guilty and criminal without doubt, but i still wanted to ask... I shouldn"'t even ask this, i am sure my accoutn will be cancelled and my stuff be deleted from rosity, but better die knowing than die ignorant.

usenet is one giant copyright violation. Almost nothing ever posted there is done so with permission of the copyright holder. There are exceptions, but they are rare. There is very little that is truely in the public domain. Many people claim they are showing something that is public domain, but they are wrong. Photographs are owned by the photographer (or heirs) for 75 years. A photograph of an old photograph, or art, etc... can go for another 75 years. Photographs do not have to say "copyright..." to be copyrighted. They are copyrighted automatically just by being photographs. Unless you have written permission from the photographer telling you what you can do with a picture, you do not have the right to use it. If a photographer gives you the right to use his photo on your web site, that doesn't give you permission to use it in a product (free or otherwise). You need specific permission for your type of use. When somebody gives you permission to use an object or texture for non-commercial use, that does not give you the right to include it as part of a freebie. You have to get their permission (and you better do it in writing). Buying an object or photo does not give you the right to use it in something you sell or give away unless those rights were expressly given by the person who owns the rights to it. And just because somebody says you can do what you want with something doesn't mean THEY have the right to say that. They might not understand who really owns the rights. In other words, take your own pictures and use them. Those you can be sure of. But even then be careful. You can't take recognizeable pictures of people and use their image in a product without their permission. You can't take pictures of art, even in a public place, and publish it or use it in a product without the permission of the artist. The list goes on...

Public domain belongs to the public. You can do anything you want with it -- even sell it. It belongs to EVERYONE. Once an item is explicitly placed in the public domain by the proper copyright holder, it cannot be rescinded. I mean, someone can't say "I place this super cool groovy texture I made in the public domain" and then come back and say "Nope, I change my mind, it's mine and you can't use it." Now, on the other hand, if I took Bob's texture, claimed it was mine and said I was putting it in the public domain, and you used it, you probably wouldn't be off the hook. If Bob found out and said "Hey, I never put that in the PD!", then AFAIK, it isn't in the PD. So you could get burned that way. As for the others, unless it says in the readme or whatever that you can do that, I would strongly suggest asking the freebie maker. It's really their call.

Attached Link: http://www.funnystrange.com/copyright/bridgeman.htm

well, the more i learn about all those copyright stuff, the more i understand and the more i am depressed... in fact i could hardly point out even one thing i saw that would not be illegal or infrigement in some way or another... That means that, as long as you cannot take your own pictures (so if you need tropical ones, get yourself some holidays there) or even make all by yourself, it is illegal.. Even if the copyright holder stated somethign in the licence, you cannot trust it at all... Man it's depressing. I think i'll give up even making freebies... I already lost time making them, if i also must loose hairs, sleep and money, i'll only do things for my personnal use, and even not display it to anyone...

I didn't know about the Bridgeman vs Corel ruling when I posted above. But interesting to note that it does not cover photos of sculpture, which are still copyrightable even when the sculpture is old, and does not cover photos of flat art where the photo includes more than the art (such as the frame and the wall behind it, or something else in the picture) which is also copyrightable. It only covers a straight on direct reproduction of the original artwork. Also I just learned that the amount of time of a photo's copright can vary up as high as 120 years from when it was taken or for the life of the photographer + 70 years. But other photos that are less than 75 years old may already be public domain depending on a number of different factors because of different copyright laws in 1909 and 1978. It's all very confusing. :)

Hmmm ... Don't steal! Don't cheat! Don't lie! What a concept! Now, where have I seen that before ...... hmmmmmm ??? I'd say someone's parish priest was very remiss...

Confusing: you can say that again, dave. Current copyright law is FUBAR. It needs to be rewritten from the ground up. (IMHO, it is absolutley ludicrious that the lengths of copyrights and patents are SO different when they serve the same ultimate purpose and were established by the same clause of the U.S. Constitution.)

this is just ACKKY ACKKY POOH!! ok really stupid question number two. I do web graphics. have actually had to go after someone for the use of specific name oriented graphics, but the server told me that a graphic could not be copyrighted. even though this was a very specific animated graphic for a very specific site. -can- work such as webgraphics be copyrighted....especially as now I use alot of poser work to make such graphics?

Do not use freestuff for freebies or products because you can't gaurantee the reliability of the source. If you didn't make it or buy a developers liscence for it..don't use it. Why is that such a complicated concept?

"Hmmm ... Don't steal! Don't cheat! Don't lie! What a concept! Now, where have I seen that before ...... hmmmmmm ??? Thanks for the info Anton, it's good advice. cheers, dr geep ;=]" I see it every day, in my conscience... Don't say stuff you don't mean, dont' take stuff that ain't yours, don't fuck people over. Yep, what a concept. I wonder if it'll ever catch on?

i'me not yet good enough to make my own things but am working on it.have never posted an item but do remember awhile back them talking about checking things before posted.if they don't want the many fine free things on this site to be used or made into new things then i believe there should only be a choice for personal use only.many items say for personal or commercial use.

in fact the mentions of commercial/non commercial use and the license texts (both for freebies and MP) are rather unclear... In fact you never know what was really intended in the text and you end up with buying products you can in fact do not much with... (and i say not much wich, i do not talk about ripping it off in your own product, but even more genuine uses...) You could expect things shared/given for free to be less restrictive than commercial and heavily checked products, but it seems that no matter the licence text, you can always misread it, it is unclear and you'd better do all yourself, never use anyone's freebie or product legally bought... I can bet that a mere 9/10th of gallery art or freebies here surely infrige on "some" copyright somewhere without even knowing, or unwillingly. I guess that when you make a picture, you should mail each and every maker of things you used in it, wait for replies and listen to people complaining their mailbox is exploding ! believe me with all the copyrights fuss and threads all this past week, i am at only an inch to simply put back my poser disk in its box to a dark corner, give up poser and not wasting my spare time anymore. Too many troubles and danger for very little joy if you ask me. If we want to take any random site, art or item, i am sure that, digging down enough, we can find any infringement, just a matter of time.

many items say for personal or commercial use <<< They are usually talking about the renders you make with them, not about using the raw textures and objects to create your own textures and objects to give/sell.

and i thought i understood it THAT way, but even then it is still frigthening. I just looked at civil law book of my country and found that, even unwillingly, you could have commited at least 3 severe offenses before age of 7 without even knowing. Key with law is control through fear and paranoia. Those who do not know law sleep better becausze they do not realise the mess they are in. Those who try to be responsable and keep themselves informed about it only find they were criminals since long regarding many ways. Though there is a practical difficulty to sue everyone, you can be sure that the possibility exists, no matter what you do... Key is not that you are innocent until proved guilty, key is that you are guilty by start, you do not know even what for, but you know it only takes time to find once someone wants to find. sorry i am sick and i am fed up with all that... I guess i better get lobotomised with some TCPA and palladium right now, for my own sake. i'm fed up with all that... It is just too much trouble to even worth bothering abotu trying to behave accordign to it, best option is to do NOTHING at all. Just like against AIDS, condom MAY work, but not having sex is just the only reliable way (of course providing you dont use drugs oo and you pray all day not to have an accident and need blood in hospital). what i understood about copyright law is: do not do ANYTHING AT ALL, and you can hope maybe be safe...

Things to know... If you release something either in a store or as a freebee, it WILL be stolen, it WILL be used comercially and you WILL find it in Warez. Be prepared for this, know it's coming & don't freak out when it DOES happen.

NaySayGuy sez:

"Him whot steel ma stuf, steeleth junque!"

Steeleth ??? <------- from NaySay ... ??????????

;=]

Farside that has to be one of the strangest satements about warez I have ever seen.

simply and sadly the truth, don't release anything if you can't take finding it where it shouldn't be. You'll give yourself ulsers and the person that did it simply won't care.

so everyone is basically saying that i'me wasting my money by buying stuff here??????????i'me starting to agree with riddokun and park my intrests in it.i seem to remember a time when things were much simpler but now we disect everything into a thousand pieces.

Raptorweb1, I don't think anyone here said that.

in so many words i think it was.you're basicly telling us that everything we download free or bought is a copyright infringment when we use how we want to even if it means making changes to it.i seem to recall a few artists here saying how much they would like to see how people make changes to their item and my hats off to them for understanding that people are going to do exactly that(change them to fit their own needs and maybe share the result).does that mean that when someone makes a new character out of v2 or v3 and try to sell it their in the wrong? because that would wipe out alot of items right off the get go.who started this whole thing anyway?

we are talking about stealing.

Thou shalt not ...

OT, I know, but that's a slick texture, CT!

Some people are making this unecessarily complicated. Things that you find, you can use them in your work, use them for renders, it is in matters of redistribution that the problems arise. If you make something available to others, either for free or for sale, EITHER - it must be completely yours from the first pixel and the first vertex - OR - anything else in it, you must have permission from the originator. So in answer to Charlie Tuna - you can use that texture all you like in your own work, but you can't redistribute it as part of some project of your own (say a character package).

It doesn't help when people muddy the water by using the wrong terms - a fair number of freebies say they are Public Domain when it is clear, from the rest of the readme, that the author is in fact reserving copyright but allowing free use, and possibly even modified redistribution subject to limits. Others stick in a claim to Trademark status, which doesn't apply both because it takes active effort to obtain which they haven't made and because Trademark wouldn't be relevant if they did.

Slick texture! I gotta say... All good points :) I've not ventured into the realms of being a merchant and making stuff. I really suck at making textures from scratch and could never produce something that would be of outstanding quality. (Ok never say never) I admire those who can. :) The closest I've come to "producing" anything is to modify a texture for my own needs. (Namely the excellent MilDragon textures) But I would never try to sell those and pass them off as my own work because... they are not. I wouldn't give them to anyone either. Actually I did offer a freebie for Bryce once :) But I made that because I needed it, and it turned out good enough that perhaps others could get some use from it (It was a pentacle, pretty simple) so I offered it as a freebie. But that was like donkey's years ago. I don't even have it anymore lol. I do keep any modded texture in a seperate folder, I don't make mats for them (Wheee I suck at those, too!) and that's where they stay. Anyone wants em... tough. I can tell you what I did to get that look, but that's about as far as it goes. Silke

Charlie Tuna, what about it? Rikkodon and raptorweb, etc, if you're not redistributing, you don't need to worry about this conversation. Check the subject line. CYA when making FREEBIES and stuff FOR Poser. In other words, stuff you're going to redistribute. No one has said that freebies cannot be used for their intended purpose. We've said that it cannot be used as source material for a similar item without permission and/or a developer's license, and to document your sources so if someone tries to yank the rug out from under you, you have something to stand on anyway. This conversation isn't a "you're breaking the law and going to hell if", it's a "this is how to cover your hinder while". Again, the key is redistribution. You can change as much as you want for your personal use. If you want to redistribute, you're going to need the copyright holder's permission. It's a simple legal fact. If you don't like it, I suggest you join a campaign to change the law.

oh nelly standing by with the firehose if needed