Surely we've got an alpha tester in here... How about somebody who's USED the program, to share their experiences with it?

Oh what a great idea. Let's do to Daz what the dopey twonks in Poser Forum did to Curious Labs. Nag nag nag nag, gimme gimme gimme. I want it now. And what did they get? Yeah, let's all nag at Daz and nag and moan and bitch and howl how it's not here yet. Maybe that way they can be forced into releasing early so that everyone can shout and scream about what a dog they released. Sheesh. History repeats itself over and over and over. HEY DAZ? Release Studio now, let's get this incessant frackin' about finished with huh? The Hyena's want something else they can savage as crap because they bullied an early release.

Yes relax people. This is getting a little ridiculous. It'll be out when it's ready.

Oh c'mon now...I'm just having a little fun (nudge-wink on the CL fiasco) D|S is a freebie (initially) so I seriously doubt people are going to gripe like they did with Poser 5. I won't be expecting it to be perfect anyway. There's no other way to use Poser figures with a free OpenGL 3d app until D|S hits. I've been dying to take advantage of the OpenGL capabilities of this Sawtooth for SO LONG... Daz won't get bullied into releasing it too early. They dragged out developement on V3 until she was perfect, and I've got no complaints there!

I'm thinking, after the holidays. I'm in no rush, let them do it right the first time. Yes, people will grip even though it is free. Read the forums, someone is always complaining. V3 had 2 updates after release, that I remember.

***Oh c'mon now...I'm just having a little fun *** There are several threads in this forum, all asking "where is it, I want it now, I'm going on holiday and wanna play with it. Gimme Gimme Gimme." Just like there was when Kupa told everyone that Poser 5 would solve world hunger, world peace and make their breakfast. so I seriously doubt people are going to gripe like they did with Poser 5 I seriously think they will, because that's what some do. As Beryld said, someone is always complaining. In fact there's a complaint thread about V3 because the morphs etc are extra. You can't please all the people all the time and one thing with these types of forums, people love to complain. I know, I do it too. :) Daz won't get bullied into releasing it too early I sincerely hope they won't but I have reason to suspect that the constant "I want it now, I don't care what it's like" comments throughout the overhyped P5 build up was the primary motivating reason that EGI forced CL to release early. No, I've not changed my mind about CL's complacency in the matter but the hundreds of "I want it now" threads may well have been a contributing factor. Didn't mean to jump on you (which I confess it does look like I did) but it gets wearing. People want what they want and they want it now, and if it doesn't work how they expect there'll be festive flames. Pre-release of Poser 5 I was one of those saying "give them time, let them make sure it works" and nobody listened. CL released a diseased dog (which they're still trying to fix). Betcha nobody listens this time either. ;)

Whining did not help all of us poor Mac users get a Mac version of P5 out of CL in any particularly quick fashion. ..

I doubt ranting for release is what caused CL to ship P5 too soon. If I recall, there really wasn't that much ranting. And everytime someone did ask, 5 or 10 people jumped on his/her back shouting "give them time; let them do it right!" And I believe Kupa himself said they released it when they did because they needed the cash. Anyway, I doubt anything said here is going to cause DAZ to release it one minute before they think it's okay to release.

Do you think I should give up waiting for the promised release of Corel Draw 3 on my Amiga. I doubt that it would be a rush release. They have surely had enough time to get all the bugs out by now?

No, keep waiting Numanoid. When the Amiga makes a comeback in 2014 after the asteroid hits, Corel will pull themselves out of bankruptcy and release version 3 for the Amiga. Good news all round really - except I'd have to digging through the attic to find my old Amiga. :) ***Whining did not help all of us poor Mac users get a Mac version *** Well of course not. After they were torn apart in several forums for the PC release there's no way they're going to do the same with the Mac, especially not after large portions of their staff were deserted in the trenches.

Anyone want to buy an Amiga 500?

Is there a way to look at a file and know if it was created in P4 or P5? Modified in P5?

Yes, open the file in a text editor. If it was created in P4 it'll have { Version { number 4.0 (or 01 depending on service pack) at the top Pro Pack will have 4.2 and I should image version 5 will have number 5.0 (plus service pack) at the top. This applies to cm2, pp2, cr2, pz2 and all the other active files.

Thanks. That will help me make sure I am testing a proper file when D|S Alpha comes out.

I'm away from home, I'll get back to you on the A500 privately when I return. Thanks

"Poser 5. $300+. None of the features people requested. Didn't work right. Removed feature that we had in P4PP. No real continued development. Slow bug fixes because the development team working it was laid off."

The world is a funny place, because my experience with poser 5 was dramatically different :)

• Much better rendering engine... like LOTS of people requested. This includes better lighting, materials and shaders and resolution improvements
• Worked just fine for me. More stable or as stable as P4PP
• Added dynamic cloth, which while the market was too dense to ever embrace had the potential of forever getting us off the treadmill of having to buy new clothing or have clothing that didn't fit out figures.
• Added dynamic hair... again, the market hasn't figured it out (the Poser market is mostly amateurs so they are slow to learn new tech at times) but once you see how it can add life to a animation "helmet hair" seems lamer and lamer all the time
• Dramatically more productive asset management
• Constant improvements via the service packs that have addressed most of the bugs people had

Hell, the asset management along in P5 paid for the upgrade for anyone who was using the beast to make money. The time savings were outstanding. Coupled with Body Studio P5 is a solid production tool.

Of course it's a religious thing now for most people... they hate P5 cause, well, they just hate it! Thats OK, I know lots of Linux people who feel that way about Windows :)

I don't think people hate P5 near as much as they hate being cheated, conned and used. "Much better rendering engine" A little better, maybe. But a LOT slower for sure. "better lighting" Seems exactly the same to me. In fact, I understand lighting that works fine in P4 locks P5 up. Dynamic cloth ... true. Dynamic hair ... the old "we don't know what we're doing" excuse. How about it looks like crap compared to transmapped hair and slows rendering to a crawl? "Dramatically more productive asset management" Dramatically? Not really...we're still stuck with that old runtime system and the same libraries. Still a pain. A dramatic improvement would have been a normal file handling system that most every other program uses. "Constant improvements via the service packs that have addressed most of the bugs people had" I only see minor improvements in the addons. The major flaws P4 had are still there in P5...still no fixes since 1999. I believe a lot of people felt P5 would be a brand new program with improved work flow, interface, file handling, memory handling, etc. It isn't that and never will be according to CL. I don't hate P5. I don't like what was done to it and what was not done to it. And I hate how its release was handled.

"A little better, maybe. But a LOT slower for sure."

I don't mean to sound like a snob here, but the only way Firefly is a "little" better is if your only doing the flat basic renders. If you keep thinking in p4 terms then I am sure that's all you'll ever get out of it. However the engine it

• Displacement maps
• True reflections
• True Refraction
• True volumetric effects
• Tree based shaders
• Procedural shaders
• Micro and subdivision surface rendering
• Ray traced shadows
• Real 3D motion blur
• True Depth of Field

"How about it looks like crap compared to transmapped hair and slows rendering to a crawl?"

No matter how slow it is, sometimes having a "helmet" head in an animation simply will not do. Period. Vicky in a temple doesn't care, but in a more dynamic world when your competing with bigger firms it sure as hell does. And it can look extremely good if you spend the time to learn it :)

Besides, it isn't all that slow once you are used to working with renderers that have this kind of feature set.

"Dramatically? Not really...we're still stuck with that old runtime system and the same libraries. Still a pain. A dramatic improvement would have been a normal file handling system that most every other program uses."

It sure sped my life up. it has simplified my ability to make absolutely sure I knwo what assets I have used on a project and how I maintain the runtimes. That is a dramatic improvement for me!

"I only see minor improvements in the addons. The major flaws P4 had are still there in P5...still no fixes since 1999."

There is not one outstanding bug that impacts my work that I know of. All software has bugs, the issue is does it have IMPORTANT bugs :)

P5 doesn't suit you? Fine. Don't use it. But to pretend or imply it was a do nothing upgrade that added no features of import and has seen no maintenance is simply incorrect. Just say "I don't like it".

"Firefly was no where near good enough to replace something like Lightwave, so immediatly the value of Firrely is less to me. Add to this the extremealy buggy nature of the "improved" renderer, and this added feature becomes far less desirable."

Since I use Mental Ray for most final output I agree with you that Firefly is not my "weapon of choice" - but since only an extremely small percentage of Poser users have access to the big guns it is a very good thing to give them a good solid rendering engine upgrade.

Besides, having Firefly to work with has cut down a lot on the number of "round trips" I need to make for animatics, motion tests and pre-production visualization renders. Time is money, saving time means making more money :)

"A quick search of the Poser forum will let you see that you are fairly unique in your stability claims."

Actually no, it doesn't I see a fair number of people who are willing to say P5 is stable and works for them. Either way the reality is that forums will always attract a large number of people who have something to complain about compared to those who do. most of the forums at Discreet complain of bugs in 3DS Max yet clearly the majority of actual users have no problem.

"majority of the people who own the package cannot get the same results in simple getting it running."

The majority of those I know who use it (small production houses who are not active in this "community") have no problems at all. My experience tells me most people run it just fine.

"it WOULD have been a far more popular feature if the overall P5 package had delivered the bare requirement for an upgrade to Poser 4."

That's not it at all. The simple reality is that most merchandise for Poser is from a cottage community of artists. They do great work but they don't really have the time or urge to learn a whole new way of making clothing - especially one that would impact their future market possibilities. Few of them actually understand the importance anyway because they have never used the larger systems.

It is simply easier (because they already know how) to slap together a dress with 3 or 4 morphs. Then you can add more morphs later as an "expansion" and so on. hell, Daz is going to add a whole NEW market with the Steph 3.0 character that would not exist if dynamic cloth was actually well supported.

"In professional render packages strand based hair is used in conjuction with physics tools and special "at render time" shaders to give it the neccesary realism. We go back to Posers poor code base here too. Poser is simply not capable of properly handling enough memory to allow for realistic hair."

I don't buy it :) First off, the special "render time" shaders you speak of are micropolygons to my knowledge (sub polygon, sub pixel rendering calculations to handle something as thin as hair), and Firefly has em :)

Of course the base of Poser has some memory issues, but the core of poser isn't the issue because Firefly is essentially an external system with its own memory management (it's a bolt on renderer so we know something of it's architecture by nature). i doubt the core Poser system actually handles Firefly memory management at all.

Is it the same thing as a full on pro level hair simulation? Nope. Just like Firefly isn't Mental Ray or Brazil. I never claimed any such thing... but to say that it isn't an improvement is ludicrous.

"The service packs were not gifts from CL."

I didn't say they were. But again the implication was that the Poser program has seen no continuing support. It has. it's that simple.

"Of the requested "features" such as use of OpenGL/Hardware accleration, improved work flow, more functional interface, multitherading, none of these were even addressed."

You know that most of the people screaming for OpenGL think it will speed up render times right? I mean, most don't even really understand what it >IS<. I also saw dynamic cloth and hair, better lighting, support for larger textures, support for larger renders, better shadows and volumetric asked for. Maybe you didn't see any of that?

Did we get it all? Nope. Was it perfect? Nope. But again, the concept that it is a non working program with no support that improved NOTHING is simply revisionism born of anger.

"What we got was the same Poser 4 with some new features stuck in that weren't useful to any higher end Poser user."

Right, cause non of us use any of those features for pre-vis, pre-production, prototyping or smaller renders. And then there is the idea that the improvements are dramatic for the core Poser user base :)

Of course, if they had given us high end guys a boost and not added a better renderer for the common user they would be getting blasted for that :)

"Poser 5 actually does not have key functionality that I cam to expect with Poser 4 Pro Pack. It still doesn't."

Buy Body Studio. The "PRo pack" was an add on feature, so is Body Studio. If you can afford Max or Lightwave you can probably spring for it. it supports dynamic hair and cloth and does a great job... it's also much more stable than the Pro pack was.

The feature is there if you want it and you are high end. It certainly would have made NO SENSE to deal with adding price or time to the release of P5 to include that built in.

"It is the high end users in any market who dictate what becomes popular, and Poser 5 was all but a slap in the face to Posers most dedicated users."

You really might not want to speak for all of us :)

"But why would I buy a program that doesn't do what I need?"

Don't. Don't ever buy it if you don't want to. It's no issue for me what you own. But when a poster says that P5 "doesn't work" as a blanket statement and says that it added no features except a minor render improvement I will continue to set that record straight. A lot about P5 was wrong - but a lot of good is there too.

"P5 doesn't suit you? Fine. Don't use it. But to pretend or imply it was a do nothing upgrade that added no features of import and has seen no maintenance is simply incorrect. Just say "I don't like it"." I don't "pretend" or "imply" anything, my words say exactly what they mean. P5 suits you? Fine, use it. But to pretend or imply it is what was promised or what it should have been is simply incorrect. Just say you like it.

"Ok. It seems like were approaching the Glass half full/half empty mark." Yup, we are :) I sold computers during the old Atari/Amiga/Appple days so I know when things have gotten religeous :) Thanks for the ideas though!

LOL. It is tempting. I run an Amiga Emulator on my Windows box sometimes just to watch the Pong demo :)

I started out on an Atari ST and learned DOS using a emulator called PD Ditto. With it and DOS 3.2 it was able to run every PC program I threw at it. I later bought a Tandy 1000 from a sidewalk sale at Radio Shack. Ahhh, those were the days of Atari is the best, no Amiga is the best...

I started programming on a Commodore 64, and was so proud of the technological superiority of my machine, which had SIXTEEN colours, as opposed to friends ZX Spectrum, which was monochrome. I was still using my Amiga till two years ago to do voices for animations using it's built in voice synthesizer. On another note, the Amiga was the only true plug and play machine I ever had. Everything since then has been plug and pray.