Here's a question (don't know if something similar has been posed before or not) that I thought I'd put out there to initiate some FRIENDLY debate or conversation... Should it be acceptable for participants in the monthly challenge to do excessive amounts of postwork on their renders? I noticed the rules imply that it is, and that artistic impression is the most important factor, yet rendering a scene in other applications is frowned upon. This seems a little strange to me. I feel if you are allowed to postwork an image, you should be allowed to use other rendering engines outside of poser as well. Either that, or the playing field should be completely level... no postwork, and only Poser final renders. What's your views?

PS: Not trying to fire guns at anyone specifically, just trying to understand how postworking a render is considered any different from just rendering in another app. Let's keep it friendly. ;-)

I agree. Marque

Personally I agree, all or nothing.

I never really thought about it that way before, but you have a point. The Vue forum challenges often don't allow any postwork, or allow only minor postwork. Of course, we're a larger, more fractious forum than they are. We'd probably get into a major fight over the definition of "minor"...

I think you bring up a good point Fido. If it says postwork is allowed, or implies postwork is allowed, then postwork of any type should be allowed. That would include rendering the pic outside of the 'creation' program. However, rendering an image outside of poser seems to sit in a shady gray area. I guess it goes to your definition of what is a poser picture - is it poser only if the initial render is done by a poser renderer, and not poser if the initial render is done with a non-poser renderer? Or, is it always a poser picture when the content of the pic was created and intended for poser? Perhaps it's time for the contest rules to be made more explicit. My .02.

Many of the forums seem to either frown on postwork, or just don't care one way or the other. I have absolutely nothing against postworking an image, but if you're going to differenciate between postwork and rendering in a different app, then that seems a bit contradictory. Postworking hair, etc. seems to be common practice, and does look great. But there's really no way to distinguish just how much actual postworking was done (unless you see both original and postwork side by side), and for all we know, the image could be 2/3 postwork. Meaning, it could be painted over so heavily, it ceases to be an original Poser render, and instead approaches a Photoshop work. I haven't yet looked at this month's challenge, and will never point fingers. I'm simply questioning the "rule" as it applies.

Good observation, Freejack. In my opinion from working not only with Poser, but also with other apps, if a scene was posed, set up with props, etc., then the majority of the work has been done within the application, and qualifies as a Poser scene. That being said, if you paint the clothes and hair afterwards in a 2D app, and touch up the lighting, and colors, and every hint of seems in the mesh, then you're doing probably more to the original result than if you just rendered the original scene in a 3rd party app. Personally, if you have Poser 5 at least, I see no reason to use another app for rendering (other than speed and using GI), because Poser 5 has a splendid renderer built in.

I think the point is that those with P4/P3 will have renders that up front won't look as good as other apps including P5. If you set up a pose in Poser then render in Lightwave hasn't it ceased being a work of Poser really? As for post work, I think they are thinking mostly of PS and Painter, much harder work than just rendering in a different program. I think it's a way of evening the feild a bit. Just my $.02

Barbarellany, I see your points. However, I must disagree. Rendering in an app such as Lightwave or 3dsMax or Cinema4D can produce some very high quality renders, particularly when compared to those done in P4/3. But it's not as simple as pressing a button. To get great results, you still have to know a lot about what you are doing, and there are some complicated settings and materials that would need to be mastered in order to get a great render. The same could be said for postwork in photoshop or whatever program. You need some skill to make hair look good and match the lighting, etc. And you still need to know your tools. Some people are professional 2D painters, and this comes easy to them. Still others can use pre-made tutorials and brushes that automatically make some decent looking hair in about the same amount of time as rendering an image in a higher end app. Some people just can't paint. Some don't have PS or any high end rendering apps at their disposal... For those people, making the playingfield even would mean there should be no postwork OR outside apps used. Then all the images judged would be so done on the skill of the "poser" himself, as rendered by the original application.

My $0.02, I think that Post work in PhotoShop, PSP, PhotoImpact is perfectly, OK.....as long as the "original" render was done in Poser. I rarely enter this challenge, simply because I always, always, always, have a problem with the lighting in the scene. I can create the scene, save it, import it into "Vue" and set my camera, my lights, my what-ever, Render, and be very happy with the results........but doing it in Poser only.......NOT! And I have to say.........even if I did Post work....it would not help! LOL! BTW.....I NEVER do Post work on anything.(:

Don't get me wrong, friends, I'm not a Poser "purist" if that's even a real thing. I'm just speculating on the rules, because it doesn't seem fair that someone stuck with Poser 3 for whatever reason must possibly be judged, along side someone who may be a Photoshop wizard and can paint very well from scratch, without getting a little help from outside applications. Same goes for us using Poser 5 with it's enhanced rendering abilities, yet I don't see any mention of Firefly renders not being allowed.

Genny, that's probably because Poser lighting leaves a LOT to be desired. That hasn't changed no matter what version you use. Fido13, let's be realistic here: painting over a render and rendering with a totally different 3D program are two different things. Fixing up what Poser screwed up by hand, and using a render engine that can do things Poser can't is totally different. However, THAT being said, there is NO WAY allowing people to postwork a Poser-rendered scene to no end is having a "level" playing field. That's simply not true, especially with the skillz some people have at painting in hair, etc. And being that you can't judge just how much postwork was done, then I feel there's only one way to make it perfectly fair to all... NO postwork, NO outside apps. I'm not counting Firefly for Poser5 as an outside app, because if you can produce great results with that thing, you deserve an award! LOL! Either that, or ANYTHING goes, so long as you used Poser to set up the poses and the props. Hey, fair is fair, right? ;)

I'm all in favour of no postwork and no outside apps for Poser challenges/contests. I have nothing against postwork per se (although some people believe I have) but I think a Poser challenge should be as much about what you can do with the application as much as artistic interpretation.

Well, I suppose the best way to approach this is: state it in the rules....if the "newest" winner of the challenge says that the new challenge be a poser render, without any post work........so be it. (: That, to me would be the "fairest" way to go about achiving this.

It would be interesting to have different challenges. Some with any postwork allowed, some with no postwork allowed, some with only minimal postwork allowed, some anything goes, as long as you used Poser to set up the scene. I mean, why not? They are challenges, not contests. The point is learning, right?

I would have to weigh in on the "limited postwork" side, myself. I don't often do any postwork, but when I need to smooth a seam, fix the crease on a leg or arm joint, clean up a corner or fix an anomaly, I try to make it as un-noticable as possible. The only reason, really, that I'm a purist is because while I own PSP 8 and PS 6.5 I'm not all that good with them. Heck, I can't draw a straight line with a ruler most days. But I see the point to the question, and the discussion, and I appreciate the politeness.

Maybe everyone should submit two images. one with no postwork or use of other programs to see who can make the best image in poser and one with postwork, so we can enjoy the beauty of the image.

Ever since they started the Poser challenges, I have been soundly disinterested for the same reason: postwork is allowed. now, I do postwork of the simplest sort on my stuff -- my earliest gallery image is pretty much postwork. But, all too often, I've seen that postwork tends to be used to make up not for the shortcomings of the software, but for the lack of knowledge of using it. On that basis -- lack of knowing how to postwork versus lack of knoweldge of how to use poser -- then the playing field becomes level as much as it possibly can. There is still the issue of artistic skill, which is the reason you've only ever seen me enter 2 contests! lol (hey, simple renders of ugly dorks and posettes playing store ain't art -- it's making training videos.)

I've been known to complain when a render does not follow up with appropriate postwork-- like cracks in the mesh and smoothing of hairlines. However, complete repainting of clothing or hair seems to me a whole other issue. Can't that be banned and allow the kind of clean-up postwork that is normal for most extreme poses in this op? After all, we are talking about specific painting skills here as opposed to Poser skills. I think a good cleanup job is a great Poser skill. EMily

My vote? No postwork AT ALL. No third party renderers AT ALL. Poser 4, Poser 5 or (arguably) Daz studio only. No post. Thats the only way I would be interested.

Very interesting replies. ynsaen said something that captured my attention and also made me think. "I've seen that postwork tends to be used to make up not for the shortcomings of the software, but for the lack of knowledge of using it". This is something I've noticed too particularly with P5, and something that makes a good point as to why there's little difference in my mind between rendering in an outside app, and doing excessive painting on a native render. Both are for doing things you "seemingly" can not do in poser. Yet there is no distinction made in the challenge rules that would draw a line as to how much postwork is too much, only the fact that you must produce the initial render from the native app. Interesting.

I think things depend on what the contest is judging. If the is judging how good an image "you" can make in "particular progam", then you should use "only" that program. No other applications, third pary clothes, textures, props, etc., "you" do everything. That way,(except for talent and experience, the playing field is even). Note; Poser 4 and Poser 5 are two different programs, because you can do things in Poser 5 that you cannot do in poser 4, including better rendering, and that does not make a level playing field for people who donot have both. For the most part, contests would be determine by money. If you can afford "Professional" programs, then that give you an unfair advantage, and people who have several "professionl" programs would have an advantage over people who have none or one professional programs. Every body needs the same Professional program(s), and number of programs to make a level playing field. If you can afford the fantastic Mats, Props, figures, lighting that's available, that gives you unfair advantage over people who cannot afford to puchase them. Should people who have training/talent/professioal experience in 2D art be put in another catagory of the contest, they would have an unfair advantage in post work etc). Should people who are Professioal 3D artists also be put in yet another catagory, (to make a level playing field)? If you are an amatuer but knows enough to make your own mats, and props in Poser should you be put in another catagory, because of the advantage you have over non skilled people? I'm sure, with a little thought, I could come up with more "unfair" advantages. What do you think? :OP

I agree that the "Poser challenge" should be a Poser challenge, not a contest that allows postwork or other renderers. That's not such an extreme purist rule, and it's not a matter of eliminating unfair advantages, just of comparing apples to apples. All sorts of outside apps are involved pre-render: the modelling program that created the props and figures, the 2D that created the image maps, etc. They can't reasonably be eliminated. And having enough money to purchase Vickie 3 and "Vickie's Dream Temple," as well as "Vickie's Disco Rags" and "Vickie's Pretty in Pink Porsche" and "Vickie's Ultra Extreme, Hell-Spawned Bigger Sword Than Can She Can Possibly Lift" is certainly an "unfair advantage" nobody can quantify, so it's not an issue. The idea is simply, what can you get Poser to do. So no other renderers, no Photoshop postwork on the oowies. I think the distinction between running the pz3 through, say, Carrara and running it through Photoshop is fundamentally arbitrary. If one is not allowed, the other shouldn't be either. And I say this understanding that I'm pretty much eliminating myself from any competition, because I specialize in composites. And PS: What earthly argument could anyone make for calling the P5 renderer (Firefly) an outside product?? Get a grip. Or call the contest the Poser 4 Rendering Challenge. M

Gave the matter some more thought... While I agree with mickma that the Poser 5 renderer isn't exactly an outside product, I will say that it does have several advantages over Poser 4 -- primarily in the area of splashy effects and such that give you an "edge" in these sorts of contests. But then, that is why they added it to Poser in the first place, lol. My understanding of the topic thus far is that we are talking about Postwork versus No Postwork (the eternal debate?), not Toys versus No Toys, or skill levels (though I may have fogged that a bit). The point of the challenge is to display your talents -- artistically AND with Poser. Since the challenge is specifically a Poser challenge, I believe, and always have, that postwork sort of defeats the purpose of using poser in the first place. Much of what is derided about "poser art" is based in the tendency to use it for a bit too much NVIATWAS and also the fact that Poser artists are considered little more than the merest step up from 2D artists because much of the good stuff is so heavily postworked as to be unrecognizable. Meanwhile, the "serious" 3D art community strives for a purity of render within their chosen specialty (the fact that poser artists seem to outnumber the serious group is subject for another friendly debate) -- in other words, postwork is a sin beyond the signature, and I've noticed a strong trend among many of them to even work that into the actual render itself. So it's possible that encouraging no postwork could bring to the community as a whole a bit of recognition (not to mention a whole lot more "how the hell do I stop my character from disappearing when I add clothes" questions...). And thanks, fido13 -- that was very nice of you :)

Give you an edge.... Considering the lambasting P5 takes on a regular basis, calling the renderer "an edge" is pretty funny. I see regular posts here about how crappy the Firefly renders are, usually with a response that suggests learning how to use the render options. Anyway, I don't think it's fair to consider the renderer outside any more than it would be to consider add-ons like the shaders, dynamic cloth, and dynamic hair "outside." And if we can't use the renderer, the materials, or dynamic cloth, then, like I said, it should be a P4 Challenge. BTW: I'm agreeing with you, in case that's not clear. ;) M

It has been noted (privately so far, thankfully) that I am one of the people who provide those responses along the lines "learn to use it" -- I just hope my responses are a bit less critical and much more helpful in specific than the usual. Now there's a challenge I would actually find the time to do: a pure Poser render, no postwork, on an interesting subject (with, oh, a month for me to trick it out right, lol)

...so maybe someone should get in there and win the contest challenge then suggest an "absolutely no postwork" theme.

Eeeek! bad Tyger, bad!

wha's a matter ynsaen? you don't want a real challenge? LOL

Interesting. I hadn't realized that the 3D community valued "purity of render," nor that they looked down on 2D artists. I thought they looked down on Poser artists because we tend to buy our models, instead of making them ourselves. Hmmm. I don't know that striving for recognition from the rest of the 3D community is worth it, or achievable. The problem with "purity of render" for us is that Poser's lighting and render engine aren't great. So even if we got very good at it, I suspect it wouldn't measure up.

"I hadn't realized that the 3D community valued "purity of render" Of course they do - look at most of the contests on other sites int he 3D areas and the majority of them will specify "no post work" in the rules. The issue is what can you make the renderer do. A free for all contest that allows images with 99% postwork do exist - they are called 2D art contests :) "The problem with "purity of render" for us is that Poser's lighting and render engine aren't great. So even if we got very good at it, I suspect it wouldn't measure up." Not really - in fact when handled well Firefly is a damn good renderer (though it would loose to Mental Ray et al) that is perfectly capable of competing in such contests if the subject and composure are compelling enough.

Firefly is decent, but as I am repeatedly reminded when I complain about non-P5 compatible packages, most Poser users use P4 or PP.

Actually one very open contest that allows all kinds of software is held monthly on the Challenge Forum. No restrictions as to postwork or type of software. It's very interesting to see a theme displayed in 2d, 3d, realism and abstract. No software snobbery there...it's often free flowing, creative, and original stuff being posted there. That aside, I think it depends on the point of the contest. If the desire to show the best of the best from an artistic point of view, then that would probably include postwork. (Personally I don't think a postworked staring Vicky is any more artisting that a non-postworked staring Vicky. The art is in originality and creativity...not just in technique.) However, if the point is to improve technique and challenge one's ability to use Poser, whatever version you are using, then there should be no postwork that might mask a poor technical style. I guess it depends on what the community wants overall. As usual, it will be a minority that decides because the majority don't care that much.

I guess the real solution in this debate has been mentioned a few times. Let the next winner chose on Poser rendered and no postwork and see how it flies.