I recently read an article about the Church here in England debating homosexuality. Despite being a Christian, I have 'issues' with the Church discussing anything other than how to better clean its places of worship... So I decided to render a small piece to vent my frustration... and in essence, it's a semi-futuristic cross with its ends stuck firmly up... well, men's ends. Well... yeah, as opposed to the old me that would have posted it without a second thought, the new and improved drac 2.0 is now able to have a bit of independent thought... so... yeah, what would you guys think? Drac (I wouldn't mind ppl flaming me as much as a serious kick in the butt from the ugly grunts upstairs)

One way is to do it the way you were planning. How about a bunch of religious folks with anuses for heads? The other way is to replace the obvious items with other metaphors. If people are on the right wavelength, they will know what you are saying. If you are a perv, you will know what this picture is about. This is an example of using objects to represent other objects. If you are not a perv, you will not see it. http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=462467&Start=1&Artist=SevenOfEleven&ByArtist=Yes

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.... i'm a perv :/ drac

actually... heh. it's overrated anyway :D

Drac: Please don't. John

tjohn: okay Mihnea

Darn, I was looking forward for some interesting pictures. Maybe a picture of priests pushing two interlinked male symbols into a firey pit. I guess disgression is the better path.

Hey Mihn, We really enjoy your company here. :)

I'm not in any way religious - I might possible manage to drum up some interest in Buddhism, but that's about all. But.....I don't see the point in insulting anyone else's religion. People seem to be very careful about which religions they choose to insult. They don't insult the Muslim or Jewish religions, but think it's fine to insult the Christian relgion. Why is that? If you're going to insult a religion for debating about whether or not to allow the ordination of gay priests, why are you not insulting other religions that consider it an executable offence to be gay? Well, there's my two cent's worth.

drac, my opinion on that debate is something like yours. but I still wouldn't post such an image. OTOH, I might tell them they are idiots. :-) I do have quite a negative attitude towards religious institutions. Especially the one officially mine - I'm technically a Catholic and cannot stand the church as an institution, although I'm just fine with priests. Unfortunately, just a minority of priests.

Well, pogmahone, if you do get interested in Buddhism, take heart, it's not a religion. The most it can be called is a "belief structure." In order to have a "religion" you have to have a separation from "God" and the religion must be the means to come together with God again. The word comes from the latin for "reunification." There is no "god" in Buddhism (and, no, Buddha was NOT and is NOT a "god", nor is he worshiped as such). And, getting back to Drac's suggestion for a piece of artwork, it would definitely step on some toes. As to why people tend to insult the Christians more often than the Jews or the Muslims ... it's simple: 1. Most of the people we see here doing the insulting are, or were born Christian, and they feel comfortable insulting their own; 2. Since the holocaust it is considered VERY bad form among most Christians to insult the Jews. The last several thousand years have been one big insult to the Jews, so leaving them alone for a decade or five seems like a small thing to do; 3. When you insult the Muslims, they tend to kill you, or at the minimum, put a global contract out on you. Just ask Mr. Rushdie. As for the ordination of gays .... I'm sure there are lots of gays who are already ordained, it's really more a matter of not kicking them out when they come out of the closet, or allowing them to be ordained when they are already out. Personally, I think it would be a good idea. Who better to counsel people then someone who understands prejudice and human foibles??

Ricky - the point I was trying to make, pretty badly, is that Christians are an easy target to insult....but that doesn't make it OK. Drac would really prove his bravery if he moved to Saudi Arabia, and insulted a few Muslim clerics ;)

Art, in all it's forms, is a medium of self-expression, and as such I think you should have the right to post any image, no matter how provocative. While I feel that the image you described is perhaps a bit over the top, I still say post it. Just be prepared to dive for cover. Maybe the 'Rosity brass should add another tick-box for posting images. We already have "violence" and "nudity". Why not "blatantly in bad taste"? ;)

Aye, I think that insulting someone else's belief structure based off of your own personal pain is retroactive, anyway, Drac. I grew up Mormon, and am now as far from a Mormon as possible! Hell, I even practice MONOGAMY! But I think your time and spirit would be better spent making NEW spiritual pictures, exploring your spirit through art... THe most spiritual thing that ever happened to me was at the end of Wheel of Time Book 9, Winter's Heart. It's affected the way I think and feel about the world, and although my WOT art isn't the best in the world, I find it glorious to express myself through it... But that's just me. Do as you like, we are often more accepting of controversy when it's coming from you!

No, insulting any group of people is never "ok." You're so right. However, sometimes it is a part of self-expression. Truth be told, I find a lot of the nudie crap over in Poserville insulting to women as a group, and I hate it when people post thumbnails that "expose" the whole of that sort of "artwork," and don't have the courtesy to put in a nudity tag. Let's face it ... whether intentional or unintentional, any time visual media is involved, it's all to easy to insult someone or some group.

I am uncertain if posting such an image is a violation of the TOS, however, I suppost that you do have a 'right' to post the image. I would keep in mind though that 'rights' tend to have 'responsibilities' attached to them, and sometimes risks. You may make a well taken point, but you may also insult someone who is visiting this sight. What they may have to say to others about Renderosity may not be very nice and may cause future problems. A little respect goes a long way. BabaLouie

Sometimes religious folks use religion as a replacement for thinking. Heard about schools in the South that have stopped teaching evolution and have started to teach creationism. Drac if you want to express your frustration with the Catholic church, you will need to be tactful. Check out medieval paintings for some ideas. Study El greco or Brueghal (sp?) or Bosch or other medieval painters. Please be careful because some folks here have sensitive toes. We should be able to put up artwork that says "Folks we have a problem here" and not fear being flamed or worse. I knew someone who used to be here and he put up a picture of the statue of liberty with a demonic face and carrying an AK-47. I liked the picture because I agreed with his stance, I am unhappy with the US's foreign policy. The war in Iraq is a waste of lives and money. Sometimes I think the US is going to be or is a rogue state. Anyway he got a lot of flames for his picture, people were calling him Anti-American. They also said his picture was an attack against the victims of 9/11. He was also getting hate mail and had to leave. This is off topic but someone mentioned it. What are the Wheel of time books about? Just a quick sketch about it, I might want to read them. Will probably need a bookcase for the books though.

eh..I know that prosteletyzing (sp?) in Saudi Arabia is illegal for sure, but converting people to Islam is not only allowed, but encouraged..;) I just figured this would show up in the OT forum..

Drac, you have the right to post any image that is not against TOS, but as mentioned afore, with that right comes responsilbility. The fact you asked showed responsibility. I personally have a problem with organized religion because on a whole it's hypocritical, and in general, just a way to control the masses for the betterment of the 'Church', and not the betterment of the people who attend it, and no way related to God or spirituality. Some of the most barbaric, abhorrent, and loathsome atrocities have been commited in the name of 'Christianity'. If Christ -had- a grave, he would have turned over in it multiple times by now. But then again this is a free country, and everyone has the right to pick their own hell as a religion. Because images so offend everyone seeing them, and your talent as a writer is no small thing, why not express your feelings in a written piece? I enjoy your writting immensely, and would enjoy a good, 'up the ___story about the Chruch'...and for anyone interested I was raised Episcopalian, but gave it up as being too stressful...

episcopalian??? catholic light?? :D

Yeah, a hoot isn't it?...;]

Well said Zhann ... I am/was Catholic, gave it up for a more spiritual-less dogma path. BabaLouie

Zhann, guess who was also raised Episopalian?? Yup ... me. In fact, my grandfather was a minister of the church. I left when they had the nerve to excommunicate my mother for marrying a Methodist. I mean really, how absurd is that!! Of course, my extended family (aunts, uncles, cousins) are still in the church (and way too involved if you ask me ... one aunt left $4,000,000 to the church - including all of her husband's estate - and bypassed his kids!!). They all think this Buddhist thing of mine (35 years now and still going strong), is just a "phase" that I will "grow out of." Ha!!

Without doubt, with the high price of freedom, which many tend to forget, comes responsibility to exercise it. It is stated that you have the freedom to express yourself as long as no one is hurt by it. In todays world everyone stands a good chance of being hurt in one way or another. Thusly, with respect to our fellow worldly citizens we should learn how to thread lightly on their chosen way of life although we may not agree with it. The believers in Christianity as a whole should not be made the scapegoat for the shortcomings of a few derelicts in authority. The same holds true for many systems. Not all Catholics are hypocritical and the majority shouldnt have to suffer the inequities of the few. Yes, many atrocities have been perpetrated in the name of Christianity but no doubt, many atrocities have also been perpetrated in the name of Islam as well but often those are conveniently overlooked and hardly ever mentioned or singled out. I respect and support your freedom to express yourself appropriately (key word) but be mindful to the implications in the larger picture. You should make certain that youre not going out of your way to be spiteful, vengeful, hateful, debasing or disrespectful and prejudice of a select group in society just for the hell of it. Otherwise, all groups become fair game and you must be ready to accept any backlash that would come your way. Just my opinion.

SevenofEleven, do not buy the books. You'll get frustrated with Jordan's inability to conclude anything. He stretches the page count like a chewing gum. There is a good reason why people coined the term "extruded fantasy product" for those books. Incidentally, the fans of the books usually behave like some religious people: you can't say anything bad about the books, regardless of how well founded such a remark is.

Isn't it amazing? Certain fantical muslims get to insult christians on a daily basis and get away with it. We insult muslims and get thrown in prison...

I don't ever post in this forum since I haven't used Bryce yet, currently working with Vue & Poser.

Point being...I was going to do a scene with a HUGE cathedral covered with dollar bills & empty parking lot. Next to it a small chapel with parking lot full...something of this nature. You get my drift as to how my thinking is on these HUGE churches albeit any religion. This is why I do not attend church anymore, can't find one small enough that is what I consider to be "normal". No chanting/speaking in tongues/raising hands etc. I was raised Catholic myself & when I turned 18 my parents said I could stop going & I did.

I have not contstructed the image yet, bought all the supplies though LOL. Been afraid to post something like this myself.

Sorry to invade your forum.....JMO

Seven of Eleven, I am not only a great fan of the Wheel books, but of High Fantasy in general. I have read hundreds of fantasy and sci-fi novels, and from a literary and comparative base I am saying that Jordan is the best fantasy author, ever. Different people will have different opinions, of course! The Wheel of Time is very long, as Erlik was stating. But as far as never concluding anything? Each book contains countless victories and conclusions. The Wheel of Time is fantasy fiction for people who need the most complex of plots and the most detailed interweavings of theme. There are more people (characters, they are fictional characters, SELF!) in the Wheel than there are people we know in real life. The main theme, of course is good vs. evil. And the things that happen in the Wheel make anything historically evil seem like a child's story in comparison. But, amazingly enough, it is balanced by such potent acts of good and healing that I'm convinced humans are not mere destroyers... Erlik just doesn't like toting around HUGE books (there are 11 of them, now, although the latest one is Book Zero...)! But I know he enjoyed them, and is only trying to keep it to himself!

I don't want to be simply labeled as some fanatic, but does anyone remember some murders in a backwards little country called Yemen?

I don't know drac....I think you might end up with a lot of hate mail...or worse.

Thanks for the warning I will avoid this one not really that found of looking at hair men butts

Wait until you see what I have planned for Good Friday/Easter.

Hi dlk30341 - I doubt that anyone would be particularly shocked or upset by the image you're describing.... "Point being...I was going to do a scene with a HUGE cathedral covered with dollar bills & empty parking lot. Next to it a small chapel with parking lot full...something of this nature." because it's just making a point about religious institutions. You wouldn't be gratuitously insulting an image (the cross) that is of the utmost sanctity and significance to millions and millions of people. SevenOfEleven, you mentioned... "Drac if you want to express your frustration with the Catholic church"... but I have a feeling that what Drac is upset about is the current controversy in the Church of England (ie, Protestant, not Catholic) about whether an openly gay clergyman should be elevated to be a bishop. Rickymaveety - yeah, the older I get, the more attractive Buddhism seems. While respecting people's rights to believe in anything they want, organized religions seem (to me) to defy all the laws of nature and logic LOL.

as long as TOS is upheld then its OK....you might want to send them ( admins ) a preview even, just to see... :) as to flame mail/messages.....???? does it matter? really? is it going to stop you thinking and expressing yourself? I doubt it, you are much to experienced to even worry :)

heh..and I make the 3rd Episcopalian, y'all must be 'high church'..we went from the Book of Common Prayer in King James English to 'rite b, rite a'..reads like a tax form..;)

Started out low church, then when we came to California (when I was 8) we were high church (and I hated it ... all the incense and ritual just made me feel creepy). Of course, they probably have incense and ritual at the Buddhist temples here (and there are a few), but I go to hear my lama speak at a private club in La Jolla, where it is very low key and informal. That's what I prefer. I'm a low key, casual sorta crazy cat lady.

I thought it was the Anglican church in England, and the rest of the world, that was having a major fit over installing a gay man as a bishop. Personally I think the image you are suggesting Drac would be just a little bit too much but I've got to agree with the sentiment behind your idea. Although I'd would really like to have a peek at what you've done. 8) Catlin

Anglicans are the original 'mother church' to Episcopalians..after the Revolutionary war, there was a lot of bad feeling towards it..the Episcopalians are the ones having the hissy fits..not sure what the Anglicans are up to..have to ask Queen Elizabeth, she runs it..;)

Aye, my only point in bringing up the Wheel of Time was not to distract, but to focus on the fact that, Drac, if you were to make an anti-Wheel-of-Time image, it would be humorous and I would never be offended! Why can't religious people relax enough? (shrugs, then answers himself) Because often people are agnostic, not SURE, and lack discipline and hope. One should never take fire about the spirit as anything personal, but just as an idea, a different view...

Drac, you got some top renders I can only dream of making. Why risk it? Secondly, didn't we want people to stop leaving Renderosity? I don't think there's anything wrong for a particular group, in this case a church, to make their rules. I personally think that making women wear veils is absurd but I don't go around telling that to my muslim neighbors, I dare not. I'm not religous, but frankly I think you should take your nose outta that subject. As far as the response. If I told someone "Your momma's a B**ch", how would that person respond? How about if I say Bryce sucks and you should "upgrade" to Vue? How bout that "Bryce, eat your heart out?" I think you'd get a similar response.