The fact that Curiouslabs is still trying to correct problems after what... 18 months speaks volumes to me. soulhuntre, We're all happy that you are having a pleasurable experience with P5, but wrapping it back to "it's all good" undermines the valid concerns that the user base seems to have. Is there a problem with trying to let a company know of customer complaints?

"15 years not enough?"

It has nothing to do with how long. You may have a billion installations and a thousand years, but if you "have never seen anything as bad as P5" (your quote) then you're experience is limited because I can assure you that Poser5 is far from the buggiest piece of software ever to see consumer release. If nothing else, Windows 1.0 disproves the claim :)

If you are honestly going to claim that P5 is the single buggies piece of software you have ever seen, then your experience is limited. That's not an insult, just a fact.

"IMO, that is a blanket, VERY untrue statement."

Not in my experience. And in absence of specific third party metrics all we have to go on is our experience. Now, you and I can trade resumes all day and it wont change anything - you have your experiences and I have mine. Those reading or viewing this thread will draw their own conclusions.

"Again, please refer to my post #32 where I state: "Why then do many people having trouble with P5 don't experience problems with their other programs?"

Nothing about that statement has anything to do with measuring how buggy P5 is. For instance some game engines have had bugs that were very specific to specific set of circumstances... the engines were not in fact very "buggy" as the number of bugs was small... yet the bug was noticeable under those circumstances. In other cases, the bug was not in the game itself, but in the video drivers or the operating system.

In reality, the fact that a user may not experience problems with other programs is no indication of how buggy or not buggy a specific program may be. It is simply one piece of diagnostic information.

"The fact that Curiouslabs is still trying to correct problems after what... 18 months speaks volumes to me."

The Linux codebase routinely fixes bugs that are almost a decade old in some cases. Windows 98 was getting patches till the end of it's life after 5 years for bugs. No trivial program is bug free, and none of them ever will be.

The issue with most reported P5 bugs seems to be that they are specific to system factors, and while they may represent real bugs in the P5 code base they do not, in fact, indicate that the bug is obvious or glaring. The opposite in fact, most of the bugs seem to be subtle (code wise) and hard to diagnose specifically because they are not consistently reproducible on other systems.

"but wrapping it back to "it's all good" undermines the valid concerns that the user base seems to have"

No where in here have I states "it's all good" or that there were no bugs or issues to be addressed in P5. No where in here did I state the program was bug free or perfect. No where in here did I tell people not to bring their concerns to the community or Curious Labs.

What I >have< taken issue with are the assertions that P5 is the buggiest program ever released,  that the program is fundamentally unusable by >anyone< and the assertion that the majority of those using the program experience these bugs.

My position, consistently, has been thus:

• Poser 5 has bugs, like all complex software
• These bugs are (for the most part) configuration specific
• A minority of users find that Poser 5 is not usable on their systems and this is unfortunate
• A lot of us are using Poser5 in a stressful (for Poser) manner and not experiencing most these bugs at all

I really don't see why any of that is causing great distress or making people ignored or attacked.

Hey, I noticed I have been makign a number of large posts of late - and that possibly some of the combativeness of the OT forum has maybe creeped into my posts on this thread. Anyway, if I came down a bit harsh, I apologize and I'll try and keep any future replies inthis thread shorter :)

People are entitled to get annoyed. After spending to buy Poser 5, I find that I can't use it for the sort of image that I make. Poser 5 should have been written to accept as many characters on stage as Poser 4 can, including on Windows 98, since very many people satill have Windows 98. Many people can't afford to keep on buying more Windowses or more computers. Also, the CR2 language to handle Poser 5 nodes should have been made much more compact. The size of a Poser 5 uncompressed .CR2 for an ordinary model such as the Businessman, is unbelievable.

There is simply no reason or method for companies to continue to try and add features and still support obsolete systems that are more than 5 years out of date. For many people, new systems (hardware or software) is serious expense and the thing bought has to last several years like with furniture etc.

I am gonna have to keep this short to keep my promise :)

"Poser 5 should have been written to accept as many characters on stage as Poser 4 can, including on Windows 98, since very many people satill have Windows 98. Many people can't afford to keep on buying more Windowses or more computers."

Poser 5 can hold as many characters as Poser 4, you just need a fairly recent computer to do so. There is no way to keep advancing software and supporting Win98. It just can't be done. Win98 lacks basic, fundamental features needed by memory intensive programs like moderately advanced 3D systems under heavy load. The amount of extra code needed to try would be huge, and the effort would be doomed to fail.

"Also, the CR2 language to handle Poser 5 nodes should have been made much more compact. The size of a Poser 5 uncompressed .CR2 for an ordinary model such as the Businessman, is unbelievable."

It's the trade off for an open, easily modified and human readable format. The solution was to allow users to compress those files, and it is a good compromise.

It is unfortunate that many people cannot afford to upgrade their machines, and they will simply have accept that at some point that means they will not be able to run the current software.

Im running poser5 on a waaaay underspeced system in Mac OSx and its as stable as the poser4 propack its understamdibly slow as hell(300MHZ+352megs RAM) I believe the homogenous nature of MAC Hardware has helped the stability of P5 MAC OSX. and at the $89 upgrade price its a joy to do cloth animations that are far superior and better implmented than Cinema4D's $500 allegged Cloth"Dynamsic" plugin :-( Cant wait to run P5 On a new G5 !!

lured back in by a kind little bird, and Soulhuntre has done exemplary in his posts, so all I have to add is this: Windows 98 is no longer supported by Microsoft. This Summer, Windows ME will cease to be supported. This means that companies which make software for those platforms cannot get any kind of support from MS in ensuring further compatibility and in making bugfixes -- somethign MS does for free for many companies at this time with products they do support. Once the support life ends, the software is dead. Dead as a doornail. Supporting it is a waste of time, effort, and resources from a business perspective, as it's very much like throwing good money after bad. And I am glad I did leave the thread -- I missed the post above my last one, and had I been here for the following, I would have been Troll baiting. Much rather spend my time working to help folks enjoy the software.

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/ lists 2 versions of Windows XP:- WINDOWS XP HOME EDITION, 180 WINDOWS XP PROFESSIONAL EDITION, 260 What is the difference in performance etc between them to justify the different price?

It isnt a problem with windows 98 that your scene doesnt work properly, it is a memory problem. 128 megabytes of memory just isnt enough nowadays, though memory chips are a lot cheaper now to buy so maybe you could buy more memory? I only have 128 megabytes and I cant afford to buy a new memory chip, but it seems like that would be the best way to fix it, or else buy a newer version of that rubbishy mess they call windows...

Attached Link: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/howtobuy/choosing2.asp

AnthonyAppleyard: I've pasted a link that will describe the differences. I have XP Pro on my Poser Machine and XP Home on a work machine (A Compaq Presario). Remote networking can be done in XPPro but not XPHome. Not much of an issue for Poser. XP Pro has some advanced management features that XP Home does not. Also not a big deal for using Poser. The multi-processor support of XP Pro is a plus, but for Poser is probably not going to help much. I think either version would be a vast improvement over Windows 98. The posts here suggest that XP Home works just as well with P5 as XP Pro. Now.....I'm going to give you my personal opinion on upgrading an old computer to XP. If your computer is older generation hardware and does not have "at least" 512 mb of ram....don't do it. Also, IMHO, you should have at least a 1.5 ghz PIV processor. Ignore what it says on that XP box. In my opinion Microsoft, like CL, lists totally unrealistic "minimum requirements" on their product boxes. If you have a reasonably fast processor, a decent amount of ram, and a large harddrive (say 20 Gig) do a clean install (remove Windows 98....f-disk) and start over. If you don't know how to do this, get someone to do it who has done it before. XP is a totally different OS from 9X. For example, it does not use the FAT32 file system, but rather NTFS, the set up for upgrading and registering is totally different and it handles memory differently. All vestiges of 9x need to go. If you can afford it, a new computer would be the better option. Poser 5 needs (in this order), lots of Ram (1 gig seems the best), a fast processor (1.5-2 ghz PIV seems the best). Video cards don't matter for Poser 5 (but will if you ever decide to use DAZ Studio!). The harddrive is only important in terms of space.....as you know, P5 takes up a lot of space and so does XP :) Also, if you decide to go with a new machine, get a decent power supply and a well vented case. I have a 300 Watt power system and lots of vents on the case of my current machine and it works fine. I also have good fans.....not those plastic, bearingless crappers that burn out once a year and can put your system at risk.

'Windows 98 is no longer supported by Microsoft. This Summer, Windows ME will cease to be supported. This means that companies which make software for those platforms cannot get any kind of support from MS in ensuring further compatibility and in making bugfixes -- somethign MS does for free for many companies at this time with products they do support.' sorry but had to correct this Microsoft have extended the support period until 2006. to quote - "Windows 98 wins support lifeline Windows 98: A favourite with many Microsoft has granted its venerable Windows 98 software a reprieve. The software giant was planning to end support for the product on 16 January but has now changed its mind. The turn off date has now been extended to 30 June 2006 following protests by some developing nations who are keen users of the ageing operating system. Extended support means users must pay for help to solve problems but Microsoft will issue free patches to counter serious security threats. " full story here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3392559.stm

xantor suggests adding more ram. That will definitely help, "if" your motherboard and processor can handle it! Most machines have limits to how much ram you can add. You need to read the documentation that came with your machine and see what those limits are before adding anything. Ignoring those limits will create an entirely new set of problems. It would help a lot to know what kind of computer (besides the OS) that you are running P5 on :)

Crumbs, this thread has run. Perhaps I have saved a few people from spending on Poser 5 and then having to uninstall it and put it on the top shelf for spiders to spin webs on.

I sit corrected.

For anyone who says things like: {These bugs are (for the most part) configuration specific } Please, please tell me what the correct "configuration" is. I routinely create 18"x24", 300dpi images in Photoshop with no problems. I create 2-3 minute animations in Lightwave using HyperVoxels, fire, and smoke effects. Poser 4 works perfectly (well, except for the usual bugs, but at least it doesn't crash). I have a Sony VAIO, 3Ghz dual Pentium 4 Hyper-Thread, 160G hard drive, 512M RAM, and Windows XP Pro. So, how do I change my system so that it is the correct "configuration" for Poser 5? These other, more complex, programs have no problems at all with my system. Why should Poser 5? It's rendering engine and modelling features are vastly inferior to Lightwave, yet Lightwave works perfectly. I agree with the above poster who said that the complaints about P5 have died down because people are tired of being told that it's their fault. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to play with the registry or virtual memory settings or the system BIOS or some other arcane setting just so ONE program will work properly.

And just a follow-up to people who claim that they can't afford to upgrade from Windows 98 to XP: you can't expect modern software to work on older operating systems. And to be quite blunt, you say you can't "afford" the upgrade, yet you can afford 3-d rendering software. And I'm assuming you can also afford the Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro that you use for post-work. And you can probably "afford" all the stuff you purchase here or at DAZ. But a new operating system that would boost Poser's abilities 1000%? Nope, too expensive. Windows 2000 is very cheap and works with 99.999% of the stuff out there (printers, peripherals, etc). So the claim that your printer won't work with the new OS doen't fly. It may be true that XP doesn't have the correct printer drivers, but 2000 does.

ahhhh, nothing like good old fashioned poser trolls....

Drat! I had a nice post going, then something got buggered up and it was lost! Well, I'll just sum it up. I agree with JohnRender. Too many people get caught up in software gluttony, and don't prepare for the occasional infrastructure (OS and hardware) upgrades that will eventually be required. If you don't have the money, I sympathize with you. But that doesn't change the fact that you need to be responsible to yourself and plan for big expenses. 3D graphics is a big hobby/lifestyle/way to make a living, and so you can expect to occasionally have big expenses. I know that what I say next will sound overly simplistic and maybe a bit hard-hearted on my part, but it is, in fact, the prescription for the problem. And I offer this with only the best of intentions and love for all of you fine folks: Either decrease your other costs (rent, food, bad habits such as smoking, drinking, eating out too often, or getting tattoos), or increase your income (find a second job, deliver newspapers, work weekends someplace). If you are carrying high-interest consumer debt such as credit cards, 90-day-same-as-cash loans (that you couldn't pay off in 90 days), or high-interest loans of any type, then you need to pay those off as soon as possible. Until your consumer debt is paid off, you probably should NOT be making non-essential purchases of any kind. Think about this: If you have just $10,000 in credit card debt, you could be getting dinged for upwards of $300 or more per month in finance charges! So if you have finance problems, do yourself a huge favor. Find out where your money is going, how much you need (or want), and make an adult decision as to what to do next. If you can make extra money by producing art or models, then more power to you! If that's just not in the cards, then you may need to find something else to help make ends meet. Do it now. Start this weekend. What else were you planning to do that is more important? Watch the teevee? Go drinking with your buddies? Be responsible and kind to yourself and your financial future! Let's face it, Windows 98 and ME are long in the tooth. They're poor memory handlers, and they're not designed to protect the OS and applications from errant or self-destructive applications. Windows 2000 is better, and Windows XP is even better yet, assuming that it is set up correctly. But life is full of harsh realities: These OSs require faster machines meeting the newest industry standards (ie; chipsets, memory, video, and disk I/O subsystem advancements) in order for the OSs to do their job. You'll only be disappointed if you try slapping Windows XP onto a Pentium 100 machine with 128 MB of RAM and a 20 GB hard drive. I hope I haven't irked too many people, especially as seeing how I'm a newbie here on R'osity. Good luck to those of you who need to upgrade your infrastructure.

If you have a computer that shipped with Win98, there is a good chance that it simply won't work that well with WinXP. These days you can find basic computers starting at around $400, and get pretty decent ones in the $600-$800 range. That includes a pretty fast processor, lots of RAM, and a big hard drive. Of course to get a killer machine will cost $1000-$3000, but even the $400 machine is light years ahead of what was shipping 5 years ago for many thousand. You can save money by not getting the very latest CPU. A year old CPU is very cost effective but still very fast. A Gig of RAM solves a lot of problems in modern software. Less will work, but RAM is probably the number one fix for problems. You probably can't buy a computer these days with less than a 20GB hard drive, and that's fine unless you gather every bit of free stuff from every site you ever go to. Too many people worry about getting the latest, fastest game graphics card, and end up killing their system. An older decent graphics card is typically more stable. It often takes graphics companies a year or more to get all the bugs out of their drivers. Some people get overclocked CPUs and think it's great because a game runs faster. But it can kill complex software since complex programs can cause an overclocked CPU to overheat and crash the software. Programs like Photoshop seem complex to end users, but they are quite simple programs compared to a 3D editor. A P5 scene with a few characters is more complex (software-wise) than a 10,000 pixel square image with 50 layers in Photoshop. BTW, I have an old 1Ghz PIII, 1 GB RAM on Win2k and run Photoshop CS, Lightwave 7, UVMapper, Netscape 7, and P5 at the same time for hours on end with no crashes. If I ran Word, Outlook, IE, or any IM type stuff at the same time it would crash constantly.

Geeze there's just no talking to some people. Facts and common sense seem to have no place as long as they can win their point. So I'm outta this thread after I make this point: To all others debating the OS problem...CL says Poser 5 will work with Win98. If it won't work with 98, then the responsibility lies with CL, not the user, to make it work. If they can't or won't make it work, they should recant their statements and issue refunds. No matter who says what about what, no matter what excuses or workarounds are offered, the fact remains that P5 still does not work as advertised on many systems that meet or exceed the system specs. I've said this before but here I go again: I like Poser. I want to see it succeed. But I don't think it can as long as CL keeps pumping out bad/OLD code and people just sit back and take it. And when someone does report problems, the flag-wavers blame them, call them names, and make excuses for the software. You don't get problems fixed by shooting the messengers. But you DO get fewer "complaints." People just stop posting about it. Big help that is.

The point is it DOES work with Win98. It just works a whole lot better on a newer, larger system.

"The point is it DOES work with Win98. It just works a whole lot better on a newer, larger system." -daverj Yup, I believe we have arrived at what is commonly called "the take home message." And here's another one: If you're still running anything with "Pentium III" (or lower) or "Windows 98" or "ME" or "NT" in the name, then you probably ought to start planning for (ie saving money for) a new system. Because if you don't, you'll eventually reach a point where new code no longer runs well (or fast enough) for you. If you don't believe me, then do a web search on Microsoft's new operating system, "Longhorn", which is now in development. There are a lot of changes on the horizon. It's best to be as informed and financially prepared as possible.

{To all others debating the OS problem...CL says Poser 5 will work with Win98. If it won't work with 98, then the responsibility lies with CL, not the user, to make it work. If they can't or won't make it work, they should recant their statements and issue refunds.} I totally agree with you on this point: if something is stated on the box, then it should work in the program. Unfortunately, years of reading game reviews have taught me that the "minimum system requirements" are just that: a minimum. Your system should actually be above their "recommended system requirements" to get the best performance. Anything less and you won't be happy. The question to ask is if Poser 5 really works on Windows 98 or is CL just included it as a way to placate Win98 users and not lose that market. I can image the outcry: What do you mean P5 won't work with my poor-memory-handling Windows 98? Geez, next you'll be telling us that I have to set my monitor to at least 1024x768! I love my 640x480 resolution. Don't make me change.

"Please, please tell me what the correct "configuration" is."

A computers configuration is the sum of hundreds of factors ranging from the hardware, to the drivers, to installed software and administration practices. Obviously it is impossible to completely and exhaustively give you a practical and complete idea of the "correct" configuration.

For my money? I would say it's a driver problem... but that's just intuition :)

"To all others debating the OS problem...CL says Poser 5 will work with Win98."

Poser5 does work with Win98 - as well as Win98 will ever work with high memory demand programs. However Win98 is a dramatically more fragile OS than Win2K and WinXP in every way. It is obvious and natural that Poser5 will have more problems with Win98 than Win2K and WinXP - as will all programs that have high demands on the system.

Personally? I hope CL (and everyone else) simply stop listing Win98 as a acceptable OS for software. it's dead, gone and buried... it is a waste of time and resources to support it.

Your simply NEVER going to be able to load as much stuff into Poser on a Win98 box as you will on WinXp box (assuming the system can run WinXP). It will never be as stable because the OS itself is dramatically less stable. When you couple that with the tendency for those running Win98 to be using obsolete hardware and it would take a miracle for CL to deliver the same experience as on a modern WinXP box.

SR4 has been released. OMG, Poser 5 is so fast now! :-D But I still wanna know how DrDavis managed to render 9 DAZ generation 3 figures in Firefly. I'm not sure I could do that with PP...