Attached Link: http://secure.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=876

its interesting......even in PoserDom ethnocentrism and racism exists....Mein Gott! ....heh...what is this world coming to? OK...when you market software around the world, why would you put goods in categories like "Ethnic"? for example, say i market my Poser characters, accessories, etc. through DAZ (brokered) and they're all what "normal people" would call Ethnic (example a Japanese clothing or character). OK, now suppose i'm a Japanese DAZ customer and i mosey on to DAZ3D.com looking for stuff....then i come across a Japanese character by typing "Ethnic" in the site's search engine (for example, see the description in the link)... OK...heres the point to this-----> If i was born in Japan and am 200% Japanese, and i am looking at this website FROM Japan....why would i consider this character to be ethnic? from whose perspective? its like passing off anything that isnt White America/European as "ethnic"....if i am a Japanese customer living in Japan why would i search for a Japanese Samurai Character by checking out the "Ethnic Section" or tying "Ethnic" in a search engine of a US-based website, which markets goods worldwide? A Samurai would definitely not be ethnic to me since im Japanese and living in Japan, right? Would a McDonald's in Japan be considered "ethnic food" by Japanese? This is like droping a White Man in the middle of Deep Dark Africa and he goes "What are all these Black Minorities doing here? Theres too many of em!" Now, thats real comedy right there. ...interesting....

Ethnic merely means characters of different ethnicities. Your own ethnicity is still ethnic. It isn't specifying "other ethnicities." See what I mean? Half of my ethnicity is Scandinavian, well, if I see a Swedish character in the offerings, it's still ethnic, even if it's my own. The term "ethnic" doesn't necessarily mean something other than your own, it merely means of some race, regardless of whether it's yours. It's a character of an ethnic background. Melanie

"Would a McDonald's in Japan be considered "ethnic food" by Japanese?" Would it be considered "food" anywhere ?

LOL! Melanie :)

hey man...i grew up on Mickey D's....McGrittles is one of their best inventions!

Maybe people should save inflammatory words like "racism" for where it actually exists. I agree that the use of "ethnic" to mean "non-white," as it is so frequently here in the United States is absurd, but to accuse either the content provider or the store itself of "racism" in this case is just wrong. You need to evaluate the spirit in which the potentialy offending words are used, you've conveniently failed to do that, here. In my humble opinion, the word "ethnic" didn't need to be used in that ad copy, but what minor insensitivity may be read into that useage is absolutely not the same thing as true racism, which is malicious. Obviously, neither DAZ nor dalinise intended malice, racism, or anything negative at all with this product or its ad copy.

melanie wrote: "Ethnic merely means characters of different ethnicities. Your own ethnicity is still ethnic." Fine; then all characters are ethnic and should be labelled as such. xoconostle wrote: "to accuse either the content provider or the store itself of "racism" in this case is just wrong" No it isn't. It is a very correct use of the word "racism", which means the (discredited) theory that humankind is divided into races. All these words "race" and "ethnic" and "ethnicity" are loaded terms. There is only one race - the human race.

"the use of "ethnic" to mean "non-white," as it is so frequently here in the United States" Actually, it's not just non white as Italians, Greeks, and Jews are often considered ethnic if they favor in looks something other than white bread. I take the tern to mean anything other than generic - like Vicky out of the box.

Why do people group all fair skinned people into one group called "Whites"? Most "Whites" have one or more ethnic backgrounds. Myself it's Irish Dutch and German. If an Item is labeled Ethnic it just means it's from one cultural race group. If its Oriental its not ethnic, but if its Japanese it is. If its Caucasian its not, but if its Irish it is.

Well, I was curious so... ethnic adj. 1.a. Of or relating to sizable groups of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage. b. Being a member of a particular ethnic group. c. Of, relating to, or distinctive of members of such a group. 2. Relating to a people not Christian or Jewish; heathen. --ethnic n. A member of a particular ethnic group, especially one who maintains the language or customs of the group. racism n. 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race. --racist adj. & n. Both of those are from the American Heritage Dictionary. Looks to me like they're not very closely related. "Ethnic" can be (and frequently is) used as a descriptive adjective, and nothing more. bonni

I think it's possible that Daz has some employees who are insensitive to racial issues, but in general their management tries to be as liberal and fair as possible. If they slip up now and then, forgive them, since they're only human.

Maybe DAZ should set up a "politically correct" texture category? ;)

This isn't the first time this has come up (anyone remember the "Brown Sugar" situation?), but just like most previous incidents its not being done out of prejudice or racism. When you have a community as large as the Poser world, someone is bound to get offended or see something in a negative light. There's no way anyone could spend enough time purifying and generalizing every product name or description to keep it from happening, and you'd run out of original ways to say "generic" pretty fast. I don't think anyone's wrong here, its just a matter of varying perspectives.

And you couldn't pay me to eat at McDonald's!

~ Molly

sirkrite asked: "Why do people group all fair skinned people into one group called "Whites"?" As a simple matter of communicative convenience. It doesn't imply denial of ethnicity or ancestral nationalities. Phantast rebutted: "No it isn't. It is a very correct use of the word "racism", which means the (discredited) theory that humankind is divided into races. All these words "race" and "ethnic" and "ethnicity" are loaded terms." So you're also accusing DAZ of racism? I'm sorry, but the true spirit of the word "ethnic" as (mis)used in context vs. biggert's assertion is getting lost in pedantic argumentative details, here. I stand by my prior clarification. It was correct. :-) mateo_sancarlos wrote: "If they slip up now and then, forgive them, since they're only human." Well said. If you find the ad copy offensive, write a respectful e-mail to DAZ explaining your feelings. Perhaps they will respond thoughtfully, as they have in the past when these issues have come up.

LOL: "Would a McDonald's in Japan be considered "ethnic food" by Japanese?" Would it be considered "food" anywhere ? In Japan, a McDonald's Big Mac is "ethnic" food, because you cannot use chopsticks to eat it. However, in every country except France, McDonalds (or anyone else's) French Fry's is definitely ethnic food.

"In Japan, a McDonald's Big Mac is "ethnic" food, because you cannot use chopsticks to eat it." no man....you can use chopsticks to eat a Big Mac....just stab it.....then eat like a giant fingerfood on a toothpick

Well, you cannot use chopsticks in the intended fasion to eat a Big Mac. Remeber, form is very important to us Japanese. I forgot to mention that McDonald's is an Irish Restraunt. Happy St. Patrick's Day!!

Well, I'm 100% scottish but I've used chopsticks in preference to a knife and fork for years (wherever possible - I draw the line at spaghetti - LOL). Knives and forks are barbaric instuments, IMO. But to get back on topic, it seems to me that no matter what terms we use to define an item, there's always somebody who takes offence. And I use the phrase 'takes offence' deliberately. I believe that with the best intentions in the world, it isn't always possible to sugar-coat every word we say or use. We're (mostly) adults and old enough to realise that there are certain words commonly used to describe the things around us. Nobody likes gratuitous racism, least of all me (although I LOVE jokes about the scots!). But when someone 'takes' offence, even where none is being given or intended, I tend to roll my eyes and say 'Here we go again'. Don't people have anything better to do with their lives? mac PS Yes, Molly.... I remember the Brown Sugar thing too.

I have heard that in Japan, they call McDonald's "Neko-Donaru" (CatDonald's), just like we joke about "General Meow's Chicken." :-)

Where I work, ethnicity is required on paperwork as demographic data to determine whether all our clients are receiving adequate and appropriate services, as well as giving us the ability to be culturally sensitive in our services (we deal with mental health services for children in this case). It's not the purpose of discrimination. I'm sure this is so a lot of places. Melanie

I'll just say that it seems that most of the free stuff for Poser characters is "white", with Japanese/Chinese coming second in numbers. I've found a few "african" character morphs, and very few textures for them. I think a part of this may be little more than the distribution of Poser users -- think MayaDoll and all the Japanese=language sites -- rather than conscious bias. It's still the sort of thing I'd worry more about than such things as what "ethnic" means.

Indeed, and furthermore, Dalinise has created several outstanding African and Asian textures. To weild the very ugly charge of racism against her or DAZ for carrying them is outrageous. Again, if DAZ' use of the word "ethnic" offends you, tell them why. That would have been more appropriate than coming here to stir the pot over what I see as being, in this case, a non-issue.

Funny thing is... ethnicity was a term promoted by liberals so as not to offend minorities, with some absurd results. Me, I'm a an arch liberal, and no shame - show me anywhere in history where liberals were the persecutors - I was well amused when a very left-wing organisation in the UK held a conference that offered workshops dealing with: minority rights in respect of ethnic asian women.

What's funny there? Well, doesn't take a statistics genius to realise that 'Asian Women' constitutes the biggest single definable ethnic group on the planet, by a very, very long way.

Aren't Asian males the largest ethnic group? More males are born than females. While males tend to die more often of illness, accident, and violence, females die more often in childbirth. (Until recently, men outnumbered women even in the U.S. due to deaths in childbirth. Even all the male deaths in the Civil War created barely a blip in the demographics compared to deaths in childbirth.) Add to this the preference for male children in many Asian cultures, and the sex ratio is quite skewed. They are worried that many men won't be able to find wives at all in China, because of their one-child policy. If families can only have one child, they want it to be a boy.

Hmmm....lessee... Ok, as one of those North American Mongrels who happens to be 2/3 Native American of mixed Nation, and the rest is Celt and mixed western European "honkies," (OHMYGOD>>>DID HE REAALLY SAY THAT??)I have to go with what the Elders here taught me and combine it with what the White schools taught me. Every single self-aware person has a sense of "self" and "other." Ethnicity is decided by the "ethnic" group who controls the media and the situation. Whether it's religious (yep, I'm a dirt hugging 'alternative religion' Pastor), political (liberal conserviative), or racial, everyone tends to point their finger at someone else and declare them "other." As an American, and a disabled veteran, I take marginal offense when people point a finger at me and say things like "well, what do you expect, he's an American." That creates an artificial ethnicity that I have to live inside at that moment. How about I just declare my ethnicity as "me," and everyone else does the same?

Was working on figures from MS Encarta, world population Female 52%/ Male 48%. You're not sugesting that MS would lie to me surely? John

No, but using world population figures is probably misleading. Women outnumber men in Western Europe and the U.S., where medical care is good and sex selection via abortion and female infanticide is frowned upon. Men outnumber women in countries like China, where most of the Asians in question reside. :-)

yeah..have you noticed, though, that the current designation is women and minorities? I've seen basic character types of all ethnicities even in basic Poser (have used several..though in Bryce you can't tell..?..;)
I wonder what Shade (the Japanese 'Poser'..sorta..;) has for it's settings? One of the most popular recent models has been Maya..(also Asian)..I remember the Brown Sugar debacle..I just thought they meant the song..;)
There's a school of analysis that says that media (programs, whatever) reflect the environment that they're created in. I would not class your average computer programming staff as a representative sample of the population at large (I support them, among others, at work..;). There's nothing stopping any of us from using any ethnic characters, so as long as they're used responsibly..shouldn't be a big deal.

pakled:

I've got to tell you that if your main awareness of ethical diversity comes from what you've seen in basic Poser, you really need to get out more man :)

Seriously though, Brian Eno - one of the first to truly use a computer for art - once said that he'd never found a genuinely intuitive interface, as none of them have anything of Africa in them. That in itself sounds a bit close to racism in the current political climate doesn't it? I do think I understand what he meant though, but I'm not your average computer programmer, I'm well below average, still if somebody doesn't quickly grasp an interface I designed, I think that's my fault, not theirs - it's amazing how many programmers see that the other way round.

John - drifting rapidly off topic.

This post and it's title is very irresponsible. Biggert you throw out these sensational titles all the time like you are writing for a tabloid. It is obvious you are trying to make a point but the way you are going about it is inappropriate. Your link and such to daz and this specific product is irrisponsible. It is suggestive and attaching a "racism" term to you post may mislead others who do not read all the text. If you want to make conversation that is one thing, but to link to Daz and a merchant's product impying racist where none exist is wrong -Anton

Damn, for one glorious moment I thought that subject line was reffering to me. Notoriety at last! Oh well. John

Though putting all the African textures in Special Interest isn't really smart marketing. It is a very vanilla store. I think what you are calling racism is just shortsighted ness.

Any relation to Elliot? :) John

My penpal in Indonesia sent me some batik and other little things, and she wrote "I wanted to share my ethnic with you". I could write the same thing if I send her a picture of Australia. I agree with everyone else. Ethnicity isn't racism it's a normal word. Love esther

DAZ should label their "ethnic" clothing (including their fantasy clothing) as "traditional," and their (LOL AntoniaTiger) "white" clothing as "contemporary." That would be a more accurate description that would not offend anyone.

ye...good idea...um with you on that one man. ;)

Disclaimer: Thread diversion. jwhitham's interesting mention of Brian Eno's "Africa" comment reminded me of the debates it inspired. The misplaced objections of a few to the comments Eno made in an old interview were a matter of misunderstanding. (I'm referring to a few hotheads back then, not jwitham's remarks.) On the surface, the comments might indeed seem inappropriate, as Eno noted in the interview. But in the specific context of the conversation, they were an "out of the box" and intentionally provocative means of encapsulating sets of characteristics by using continental groupings of people for the purpose of representation. For example: "Do you know what I hate about computers? The problem with computers is that there's not enough Africa in them. This is why I can't use them for very long. Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a person without enough Africa in him or her. I know that sounds sort of inversely racist to say, but I think the African connection is so important." -Brian Eno, Wired magazine, May 1995 He's talking about general sensibility, not color, not race. :-)

elizabyte's dictionary said: "racism n. 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race. --racist adj. & n." That is actually a good definition of racialism. Racism is properly the belief in races. There has been a certain amount of meaning drift in recent years, but that means that one is left without a word for racism in its original sense, which is a theory increasingly under attack from anthropologists. I oppose racism AND racialism, and without the distinction between the two words I can't make my meaning clear. I'm certainly not accusing Daz of being racialist, far from it.

This is not really about Poser.

Okie DOkie

Would a McDonald's in Japan be considered "ethnic food" by Japanese? No, it is "exotic food"

more like toxic food ;P and in response to post # 7- "there's only one race- the human race"... I'm officially dropping out of the rat race...

"Would a McDonald's in Japan be considered "ethnic food" by Japanese?" Would it be considered "food" anywhere ? Like it.....in fact 'I'm lovin' it' (hurl)

{Like it.....in fact 'I'm lovin' it' (hurl) } So does that mean that McDonalds's is now "ethnic" food because their commercials are aimed at the hip, inner-city youth? Personally, I hate their new commercials where everyone (including the white people on the beach) is rapping about "I'm lovin' it... " Yep, I can relate to this: me and my friends always go to the beach and spontaneously rap about how "I'm lovin' McDonalds". I guess people don't "deserve a break today". To bring up another point: who is to blame? If DAZ puts oriental/ asian stuff in the "Ethinc" section does that mean that they're "racist" or does it mean that they know how to market to their customers? Obviously DAZ put their stuff in that section because they figure that's the first place that customers would look for it. So, who's the racist now?

well i don't think they (Daz) really thought about it at all beyond a "well he have to section this stuff somehow so we can keep things neat and tidy" kind of thing. Think of the logistics: a humanoid catagory subdivided into subcatagories such as chinese, Korean. Japanese, Tiawanese (SP?), Korean, African, African-American, Irish, Black Irish, Celtic etc. The catagorization would be a nightmare. I wouldn't want to be the web grunt having to sort this stuff into catagories....

er the repeat Korean- the second one was supposed to be Veitnamese(SP) but i think you get the idea...

So does that mean that McDonalds's is now "ethnic" food because their commercials are aimed at the hip, inner-city youth? Sirrah, I may well be hip but I am no youth! :) Back to the topic..Here's a thought ..don't use any loaded words..racism, ethnicity etc. In the UK the 'acceptable' word is 'afro-carribean'. If I refered to any of my mates as Afro-carribean, they'd think I was having a laugh with them..particularily the black ones.. One cannot know what motivates somebody, there's no magic formula for spotting a bigot and who can say why somebody makes a texture and calls it a certain name. Curious coincidence, I've been working on a P4 black woman for the last week....she's getting there but I have had to use a lot of morphs.....a lot!