hey, how do you like DeadHorse 2.0? pretty cool stuff, hehe. "unless we set examples, we will continue to fight the battles about what is OK and what is not." Well, posting those example pics was a HUGE mistake. But the mistake I made was not regarding copyright, it was by MISJUDGING what an uptight, repressive place this forum has become. I have to consider it a mistake because it has essentially ruined this thread AGAIN, making it hopelessly OT and into an endless tangent. The spirit of this thread is to inform and inspire, so that the difficult task of Digital Cloning isn't abandoned but instead conquered and elevated into a distinct genre of art in its own right. If you're reading this please don't be discouraged by what you've seen here, visit the yahoo group and LEARN.

The yahoo group has photos of movie stars and musicians taken from films and publicity materials. That is against the Yahoo terms of service. I have been brought up in the Yahoo group thread so I thought I'd clarify some things. A female model friend recently had to hire an attorney to have renders taken off a porn site, her face was used on poser figures and she spent a month getting the images taken down as well as haveing money taken out of her pocket pursuing the matter. I'm am interested in the topic of Digital Cloning. The article on Daz M2 and scanning a human for 3d was a interesting read. As well as software such as poser 5 face room, and FaceGen and their use in games. In the discussion of digital cloning there are legal ways to do it, model releases, permission from people who's likeness that your using etc. When the legal issues are dismissed and copyrights of photogaphers violated I find it hard to support your way of creating digital clones.

MC, I understand that you take copyright very seriously and I feel that this thread has benefitted from the information that you've provided. But whats hard for me to understand is why you've argued here with such fervor yet in the last two threads relating to digital clones there have been numerous violations of your copyright standards and yet you had nothing to say on that. Please look at the following threads , I'd be interested in your reaction to those. http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1698084 http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1715807

Zarabanda, Calling people who want to protect intellectual property and personal identity "uptight" and "repressed" is hardly going to sway opinion to your side. Unless you have permission to use those photographs, and have contracted with the model for the right to make a 3D clone, you shouldn't be showing your followers how to do something blatently illegal, and especially when you are "sharing" your creations over the internet. It has been suggested that you and the members of your group use your own faces. That is a very good idea. You would have something to practice with, and you can give corrective feedback to each other, and it would be legal. What a concept. Carolly

Thats all well and good but you've yet to apply the stringent standards to the other threads I referenced. At least be fair and even handed in the criticism. If people are going to disrupt and attack a thread, do it to all the threads. http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1698084 http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1715807

FYI, I deleted the images that were creating so much emotion. I hope this will make everyone peaceful and happy. If not, please vent the anger elsewhere.

Anyway, real weirdos clone the girl next door!

LOL delt! yah those might be the ppl to REALLY wonder about.

But then they had to wipe Poser from their harddrives!

"Zarabanda, Calling people who want to protect intellectual property and personal identity "uptight" and "repressed" is hardly going to sway opinion to your side. Unless you have permission to use those photographs, and have contracted with the model for the right to make a 3D clone, you shouldn't be showing your followers how to do something blatently illegal, and especially when you are "sharing" your creations over the internet. It has been suggested that you and the members of your group use your own faces. That is a very good idea. You would have something to practice with, and you can give corrective feedback to each other, and it would be legal. What a concept. Carolly " I have an issue with this part of your statement. "Unless you have permission to use those photographs" I would like to ask if you obtained permission to use the screen caps from LOTR in the post currently in the Copyright forum? http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12395&Form.ShowMessage=1715332 If not, then you really have no business commenting. L.

I am in no way am saying that copyright infringment is acceptable in any form. I just see no point in lecturing someone on usage issues when you may aslo in violation of it yourself. It's better to look within your own house rather than peeking in others windows. L. (I am also not here to make friends.)

WOW! Lobo thank you so much for posting that link. Apparently there is some serious HYPOCRISY going on here.

Legally you clone everybody..... (as long as you dont use original photos as textures) Read this: http://www.fairness.com/articles/digital_clones_hom and now the horse is really dead...........

A female model friend recently had to hire an attorney to have renders taken off a porn site, her face was used on poser figures and she spent a month getting the images taken down as well as haveing money taken out of her pocket pursuing the matter. That is EXACTLY the reason why you are running a very high risk by using celebrity photos. I've been biting my tongue on this scenario, but I can only imagine how quickly these clones will turn up in porn sites.

Zarabanda, The horse isn't dead, and never will be. BTW, in your image "Grief"... did you paint over a film clip? Sure looks like a bit of PhotoShop filtering.... ****** Hey, isn't this a screenshot from the movie "While You Were Away"? Wow! Great use! This is really well done...I especially like that the movie and the theme for this picture correlate...I'm sure you did that on purpose. ^_^ Heather ******* Carolly

Zarabanda honestly I didnt see those threads and am a little shocked that nobody made any comments in those threads. I was thinking of the limitations within the poser 5 face room, use of digital cloned poser people and their uses in games or films or The Sims. With Poser 5 face room a lot of people take photos from the web and throw them on Don or Judy. As Poser and the content for Poser has gotten more real, I have yet to see a film or short using real people for animations maybe I haven't looked hard enough. If you have gotten a model (real person) contracted to use their face/body and work with poser 5 face room or by other means like a 3d application creating morphs and used them for poser, how can you use them for games or avitars etc since distribution of meshes that you haven't created is a no no like Don, Judy or Daz models. I know about Encoding the mesh. I rewatched Al Pachino last night in Simeone. Poser could go that way, the ethical delema of the character was interesting. M2 was a body scan of a person and we use textures based on photos of real people so in a sence a lot of poser is digital cloned work already, just not taken to the extreme of a exact likeness of a person yet. (I'm tryin to stay on topic, really I am)

First let me say a few words about copyrights. In order to copyright anything YOU MUST BE THE AUTHOR. Its hard to see how you could copyright your face when you are not the author. Its as reasonable as try to copyright a tree. Now about digital cloning cloning is making an EXACT copy of the original. Therefore, what I do is not digital cloning since nothing I have created is an exact copy. Zarabanda, I would like to clear up a misunderstanding. I never intended to imply that what you are doing has no artistic merit, it does. I was trying to make the point that its not for me. I am bothered by number time you have put down people who dont agree with your point of view. If what you are doing has artistic merit, then Dial Twiddling" as you put it also has artistic merit. Why do I do what I do To me its more a study of faces. I use celebrities because pictures of them are easy to find, and face it if they didnt have striking or unusual features they wouldnt be in movies. How many plain everyday faces do you see in films? I go though dozens of pictures looking for good front and profile views of their face. This is why the Internet is such a big help, therere usually piles and piles of pictures. Typically I go to the official site to get my pictures. I figure that way Im using pictures that the star wanted on the Internet. I dont just twist dials, I have a pretty good idea as to what morph does what before I start. I start with the shape of the face and try to get it as close as possible. Once I have the shape of the face the way I want it I work on the mouth, nose, eyes and ears. I go back and forth doing little adjustments until Im either happy with it or I give up. Im not a perfectionist, so close is good enough. I feel that its kind of like drawing a portrait, sometimes your dead on sometimes your not. Either way Ive learned something about using Posers face morphs and thats my goal.

MachineClaw, TY so much for your input and thoughtful commentary. I have come to fully understand your perspective on copyright. By us having a meeting of the minds this thread can come full circle. Everyone can learn a lot from you regarding IP, I know I have. You bring up some excellent points that reach to the core of poser as a program and its limitations. The figures we use created by DAZ, et al. don't really belong to us, we're just borrowing them. They have virtually no commercial potential in and of themselves. Renders made with poser have moderate commercial potential, but we must be meticulous in examining every aspect of the composition to ensure that no copyright has been infringed. Face Room in a commercial sense is really just a novelty because of its marriage to the default P5 figures. So far the results from Face Room have been mediocre. But hasn't CL been reckless by including a tool with P5 that makes recreating a real person so quick and easy? Its only a matter of time until somebody figures out a way to make it work. And then what if they teach people how to use it in a way that makes precise digital cloning a matter of formula rather than technique or skill? What about the unauthorized if not unflattering renders of real people that are sure to follow? These are all questions that need to be asked, and I'm grateful you have the courage and honesty to discuss these here. p.s.- Simone was a great movie, and really touched on a lot of what we're dealing with here.

Grey_Cat, I have tremendous respect for the excellent work you do and would never try to diminish it. My criticism of "dial twiddling" is based on my own exhaustive experience, and certain scientific observations I've made regarding the nature of facial recognition. Facial Recognition is a core aspect of how we interact as humans. Its not something you have to think about a lot, you either recognize a face or not. Thats really the core of what I'm trying to accomplish. Any criticism I've had has mainly been trying to positively inspire people to be honest with themselves and really look at the final product. Something like this can't just be in the eyes of the beholder, its a universal human experience and my hope is for as many people to share it as possible.