this occured to me......i wonder if Poser is being used somewhere for psychotherapy? i mean some doctors use art, music, and things like that to "cure" people right? so i wonder if Poser is somehow being used in this area? why not right? some use coloring and music therapy......so why not Poser? imagine that.......using Poser as an outlet for pure rage, torrid sexual frustration, and things like that....... hmm.....interesting...... a tool for psychiatrists!

By the looks of the galleries, I'm guessing it already is!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!! Ducking from all the flame throwing arrows....just couldn't pass this one up...sorry ;)

ye its actualy a tool we can use for ourselves.....as an outlet...

Docter, I am just totally obsessed with naked sword weilding barbie dolls, Please help me!

Yes, you're probably right. For all we know, FBI profilers have added "collects Poser torture props" to their list of predictors when looking for suspects in murders. The standard line we hear from torture artists is that "it's only a 3D render, at least we're not doing it for real", so it clearly is a way for them to release their rage against women, or whatever their Poser victim of choice. And I agree with them; I'd rather have them sitting in front of their computers and pretending to torture women, than to be like that guy in British Columbia who did all those horrible things to dozens of women on his hog farm.

i have a friend who is also a poser fan and once we got in a sort of discussion about some of the things avaiable at renderotica and dark toys. you know, those places, tend to specialize in a lot of stuff that's maybe a bit too, i don't know, maybe "over-the-top" for outlets like this one, and DAZ. torture sets and whatnot. pretty scary stuff! Anyhoot, I objected to one torture/bondage set called "the kidnappers cabin" (seriously i did not make that up!) as being patently inappropriate. But my friend said something interesting along the lines of "Well, maybe if someone plays with this type of thing, that will prevent them from bonking a real girl over the head and dragging her off to a real 'kidnapper's cabin.' " At any rate, it seems like 80 percent plus of the people who use Poser are already using it for a constructive (a relative term i suppose) sort of escapism -- fairies, medeival-type stuff and romance imagery seems to be most popular -- but without doubt there is a sizable minority who dig the bondage/violent stuff. I'm not really sure if it's because some artistic people (who use Poser) may be inclined to fantasize about that sort of thing, or if Poser becomes simply a "good outlet" for people who have that sort of inclination, if it's some kind of joke, or if it's simply an example of talented people pushing the envelope, so to speak, of artistic expression. Psychiatry-wise, though, and even in mainstream public perception, I think a lot of that sadistic imagery would raise more "red flags" and lead people to think the artist has homicidal ideations more than it would have people just sort of say, "well, this person is venting their frustration or whatever in an appropriate manner." Ultimately, I think just about everyone who uses poser is doing so for a therapeutic and/or escapist purpose, whether they are creating images of "a better world" in the future, a romantic medieval scene, the fairy world and even the controversial stuff. So really, i think it's already a therapuetic tool. it's just that the "rest" of the world probably has yet to see it that way and give it its proper respect, in those aspects. just my crappy opinion anyhow! :)later -- moxey

Isn't it obvious? Anyone that uses Poser for anything should have their head examined.

Such persons are not normal.

They probably eat creamed cauliflower. And kick their cats for fun, too.

Poser is a disease...not a cure (j/k) (another poserholic has spoken) :P

Regarding people acting out their 'fantasy' with Poser (i.e. the Kidnapper's Cabin)....I would think that if they do it repeatedly in front of their computer that it would desensitize them to how horrid it is of an act that they wish to perform. In addition, what if they posted or shared images with a community or persons that approved of the image, even if it was on aethestic value alone. The approval could come off as an approval of the act depicted to the person who created the image. I am not a psychologist or therapist, but speak only from my own personal experience (books, classes and discussions). My opinions are my own and are not representative of Sixus1 Media as a whole Rebekah

Poser is a disease...not a cure (j/k)

Yes.....anyone that uses Poser clearly has issues.

These individuals ("artists", they dare to call themselves) take great delight in manipulating helpless, tiny people-figures, bending them to their own will. Forcing them to obey their every command. Not ever thinking to ask the Poser figures if they WANT to run through a wooded glen, or creep down a castle hallway, or dance beneath a virtual moon.

Maybe Victoria doesn't ENJOY being in that temple!

ALL POSER USERS, BY DEFINITION, ARE ON A POWER TRIP!!!!

People like that are in need of some serious help, let me tell you.

Rebekah is right... paedophiles viewing kiddie porn, sharing with their "peer group", will become desensitised to images and need to escalate their crimes in order to recapture the same thrill. So they move on to flashing, peeping, eventually moving up to molestation and rape, if they are not caught beforehand (sadly, rarely...) The acceptance of their peer group and lack of disapproval allows them to convince themselves that they are "normal" and that their actions don't hurt anyone and all that other bullshit... But leaving aside unpleasantness, I use poser as a therapeutic tool for myself, whether I'm expressing sadness or rage or just destressing and playing. I'm always more mellow when I'm in a creative phase :)

Poser is merely a tool: to be used as an individual wishes.

One cannot force others to use Poser the way that they are "supposed to".

Much as one might wish that they held that power.

I use Poser to relax..at least I try to..until something crashes etc :).....then the relaxation goes out the window, as well as the thought of tossing the puter out as well LOL

I won't identify his screen name for obvious reasons, but there is someone who periodically posts to the Poser and Bryce forums who appears to be schizophrenic. Like many people with forms of that affliction, he clearly has his intelligence ... he's not a totally incompetent "crazy" person. He can compose and complete renders. The perspectives and (unintentional?) surrealism evident in his imagery and titles are fascinating ... a glimpse into a different way of seeing and thinking, if you will. Why do I (and others) think he's schizophrenic? I'm not qualified to make a professional judgement, but as someone who has known two people with that mental illness, I recognized the patterns of disassociation, etc. evident in his rare forum and gallery posts. Apparently this person is considered a bit of a problem by the staff for his un-neighborly behavior, but again, I find the art fascinating for its originality and passion. Whether his perceptions and opinions are grounded in consensual reality or not, they're certainly passionate and very different from what "normal" people post. I have no idea if this person's art does him any sort of good in the sense of mental health, but I can't see how it could be a bad thing, excepting the fact that his social views are considered offensive by many.

Poser is relaxing as long as nothing crashy hapens.... ....i remember the day i quit my job i went home, slept an afternoon nap....then played with Poser without even thinkin of those stupid coworkers! ......thats a kewl move.....seriously man.....then i slept again while waiting for a render tha finish.

Bah... I disagree that Makin weird kinky , or horror themed images is in any way abberent or dangerous, any more than I think Wes Craven or Stephen King are Axe weilding psychos. Just because somebody chooses to mix sex and violence in their art doesn't mean they have any actual desire to inflict pain or physical harm on anyone in real life. That sort of art (animation, games, comics, model kits... yes I said model kits :p) is commonly produced and consumed by all sorts of people in Japan, and nobody bats an eye at it... and Japan has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world.

All that being said... You can tell who the true Freaks are more by the comments left on a picture... I often find them more disturbing than any work of art...

I didn't mean to imply that anyone creating such images was automatically a nutjob, but I don't think that a therapist would recommend that a rapist recreate or act-out their wants as it could result in what I mentioned above. Rebekah

I forgot to mention the positive aspect of using Poser for therapy. I know that sometimes everyone needs to vent and what way is more natural than through art ?? :) And, if you saw the books on my bookcase...you would think that I was a nutjob. 'nuff said. ;) Rebekah

O.o making disturbing or violent images makes a person prone to violence? dear god ...I wonder if someone out there is -really honestly- thinking that I hung a woman from chains attached to her flesh for those hideouse beauty pictures...sometimes a picture is just a picture.

DE - no - there is a difference between exploring a theme and a darkness in art, from someone who makes render after render of violent images and does so because it excites him/her. When we make a picture, we do so for our own individual reasons. We don't think of the audience (well I don't) - we make what is in our minds, and it expresses some feeling we want to capture, or exorcise, or evoke. We do not necessarily want what we make. When I made "Self-Mutilation" I did so to express my self-anger in a way that did me no harm. I did not make it because I wanted to slash myself: I made it precisely because I didn't want to. If I made a picture of my boss being stabbed because I was angry at her, and it helped me feel better and less like punching her out, then that's okay. But what if I kept making more and more renders of my boss being killed, tortured, degraded? What if I found I couldn't stop fantasising about it, and the renders were just an aid to that fantasy? It's like the old old hoo-ha over violent films. "If people watch violent films, they will become violent!" No - it's the wrong way round. The films/renders/books aren't the disease, they're the symptom. If I have a violent streak, then I will seek out media that titillate that violence and as I become more and more desensitised, I will need more brutal and violent things to keep the same thrill from it. But watching "Pulp Fiction" isn't going to make me go out and hack someone's ear off :-)

It's called Art Therapy. Very few people get out of childhood without a dent or two. Most of these dents were incurred before the age of six, often pre-verbal, where memories are not accessable by normal thought processes. Art, set free, with Poser can allow a person to dig out the dents without having to go through some process of rationalization, or verbalization. The Poser images and those that are drawn (anime, comics, etc) are a fantastic view of the inner mind where anger, love, sex ... are all mixed together in forms that are not considered socially correct. As such they can be used by the experienced Poserite to look inside one's own mind. Attempts to censor the Poser artist, whether self imposed or by others, is like censoring a secret code before it is decoded. In short ... let 'er rip. And hope Ashcroft doesn't discover this nest of sickoes.

Dark Elegance,

what you do is, at least to me, real Art (notice the capital A:) and always puts me in mind of the original, wonderful, artwork on the cover of Germaine Greer's seminal (or possibly not, given the context) feminist work 'The Female Eunuch'. Anybody who doesn't know this image, it's a well detailed female torso hanging in a closet, most areas only required for occasional use you see. That's a whole other thing from the crude depictions of violent sex I've seen on 'rotica and, toned down a bit, here.

My instincts are all ultra-liberal but I can't ignore the evidence any longer that people with a predisposition toward aberrant behaviour DO take seeing other peoples images of their fantasies as affirmation that it's ok to try and live them.

John

But what if I kept making more and more renders of my boss being killed, tortured, degraded? What if I found I couldn't stop fantasising about it, and the renders were just an aid to that fantasy? One could say the same thing about the artists who almost compulsively have to use nudity, whether it makes sense or not in terms of the image. Not the folks who do nude studies, but the guys who create image after image of naked chicks just for his whack-off pleasure. There's a guy like that on one of the other Poser sites, and after looking at his gallery in toto, you really start to wonder just how bright the candle really is. Then, of course, that leads to the obvious next question: if he can't get a girl in RL because nothing will match up to the volumns of pretty naked ladies he's created, how does that impact on his feelings about RW women in general?

Well Sean...I would guess his expectations are way to HIGH...I'm guessing this individual will die a lonely old man with only his hand & penis & renders of pretty women. He could be one these guys who meets a women...acts normal for awhile, then after a period of time starts asking her to get a boob job/lipo/nose job etc...all to look like his "poser girl"..... Then again as a society, most encourage women to do these things anyway....Remember all women should be a size 0 with D size boobs and a shaved crotch.....~sighs~ I can tell you this..ANY man that requested any of the above of me, I would tell them to go F!@# themselves! OTOH..maybe he is physically deformed/paralyzed...or something of this nature..then I guess he should just enjoy. It's all a double edged sword with no simple answers...circumstances are different for everyone.

Well.....I administer employment and training programs by day which means that I spend a lot of time working with people who have lost their job of 40 years because some dipshit owner decided to use the company funds to take his wife on a binge trip to Italy (among other things). We also work with people who have been on welfare all their lives and either have never had a job or don't want to. Finally....the kids...whose parents beat them and otherwise abuse them....they drop out of school and end up with us. In between, my time is spent dealing with half-wit politicians and "stuck in a time warp" bueaurcrats to try and get the funding we need to assist all these folks. Anyway......at the end of a "normal day" of this stuff, I find a nice release in Poser and Vue. Sometimes I'll create a nice little image of Kiki in a tree with a bird. Other times, I'll haul out the Sixus Minotaur and have it tear off a Trog's head! The next night I'll create a caricature of John Kerry or George Bush :) However......I have "never ever" created a "naked vikie in a temple with a sword"! :) Not sure what all that means. I do know there is no sure way of telling by behavior or actions or art alone, if a person has mental health problems or not. The "signs" are not always clear indicators, but do need to be attended to. I sort of have this notion that most of the people who act crazy as hell in these forums are probably just bored housewives :) The rest of us just have "crazy" day jobs! And Rebakah.....those of us who frequent Sixus, don't think you're a "nutjob".....we "know you are"!!! Brrrrruuuuhahaha!! (just kidding!)

Awww...Thanks Sandoppe...nice to know that someone has noticed ;) And DarkElegance...I took a look at your gallery and two of your images could be considered 'disturbing' by some, I found them thoughtful and expressive. These would be very fine examples of Poser 'therapy' at work in my opinion. http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=636304 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=635544 Rebekah

"Very fine examples of Poser therapy." Hmmmmm..........hmmmmmmm........ I must admit: that's one of the more interesting critiques of Poser artwork that I've seen.......

Buying stuff for Poser must be therapeutic for me. I do it enough.

Rebekah you know I hadnt thought of it..those pieces where done while rather annoyed over comments about a nose {of all things} and the increasingly narrow field of "beauty" as it was said above about the person obsessivly doing naked woman and not allowing themselves a girlfriend due to her not "measureing up" that is not just poser..poser is reflecting societies "ideals" it is not just vicki renders looking the same..if you grab a HUGE stack of playboy....you will see a re-accuring ideal of what sexy and beautiful is. 90% of the time it is blonde blue eyed/green eyed medium busted usually with a turned up nose on the smallish side. {though the percentages are wavering more recently with the growing attraction to red heads~evil grin~} if you look at typical vicki she fits right in with that. the violence. I will admit I have seen some props that made me just shiver. just I guess it never seriously crossed my mind about some using those props. also jwhitham, Rebekah thank you very much for the kind words about my work @)}----}------

As someone who has worked a bit in the mental health field (in internships) and is just finishing a Master's Degree in Counseling Psychology, I would say that it would be highly unlikely for Poser to ever be used as a tool in therapy. There are several reasons for this, the most pressing of which is funding. Most mental health facilities are inadequately funded, and it's getting worse what with HMO's and cutbacks in federal funding. Unless you work for a large, privately funded institution, there is probably not going to be enough money to get everyone a word processor, must less computers capable of running any sort of 3-D program, then, of course there is the cost of the software itself. Secondly, making an image in Poser can be extremely time-consuming, especially as you get better and "tweak" more areas and concentrate on detail. The time-constraints of modern therapy would not allow you to spend several sessions letting someone "play" with Poser. When the HMO's decide that a person only needs to be in therapy for 8 one hour sessions, regardless of what the therapist thinks, to use up two or three of those letting someone make a Poser image is not condusive to getting the task accomplished. I believe that as a personal form of letting out frustrations or just wanting to put together something pretty and appealing, Poser is great. But I don't ever forsee it's being used in a clinical setting.

I have done some work in art therapy and was going to say the same as linnymac, there just isn't the funding to make computers and 3d software available, and I'm in the UK so it must be a worldwide funding problem. As for using Poser, well, I haven't had to see a psychologist since I started using it, so it must be good therapy. 8P Catlin

Humans have a great tendency to blame something else for what they are, when what they are is not acceptableto themselves or to society, or to parts of it.

We are a violent species. There can be no arguement against the overwhelming evidence. We must not reject this part of ourselves, but rather accept it, embrace it, and REQUIRE OURSELVES, AS INDIVIDUALS, TO LEARN TO CONTROL IT.

EVERY ONE, if they are healthy, has dark, hidden secrets that each of us would rather not share with anyone. Fantasy is, among other things, an outlet for those frustrations. It can be a self theraputic tool. If some choose to share those dark elements of themselves, well, that's their choice. I find their strangeness fascinatinghuman beings are not only stranger than they imagine, they are stranger than they can imagine. Art, even more than the written word, is a window to the mind.

It is only when fantasy becomes obsessiona loss of self controlthat it becomes potentially dangerous. Obsession does not remove responsibility, however. A drunk driver is not in control of either mind or body, but is still held responsible for their actions. Someone who was abused as a child and grows up to be a violent person is still responsible for their actions. We are as we choose to be. If we are incapable of making a choice, then we are damaged, and require care and imposed limits on our actions. But even that does not remove our responsibility, it only explains our lack of ability to function normally.

"Desensitization" is a myth invented to remove responsibility from the person, and apply it to an abstraction. If desensitization were valid, every combat veteran, from every war, would be a violent criminal. Every law enforcement officer would become a violent criminal. Every emergency room doctor and nurse would be indifferent to human pain and suffering.

If there is a problem with violence in our society, it is because of two things:

1. In portions of this society, violence, on all levels, is socially acceptable. These tend to be the poorer elements of society.

2. In other portions of our society, lack of responsibility is not only acceptable, it is encouraged. These tend to be the more affluent elements in society.

I conclude with this: Social history is repeating itself. It doesn't have to do so. All that is required to stop it is that people accept responsibility for their actions, and require that others do the same.

I agree, in general, with both Huolong and Triarius. In general, what we choose to view or create is generally simply a mirror of what we're already thinking. It can be a quite healthy thing to create "dark" images, if by so doing one vents such feelings in a pretty harmless fashion. In fact, repressing such thoughts on a regular basis can be downright unhealthy - I had to talk a 14-year-old out of suicide once, because he was convinced that his sexual thoughts made him monstrous. This was not a fun thing. I encouraged him to write down his thoughts, and while reading them was really disturbing them for me, it also really helped him calm down and get a handle on the difference between fantasy and reality. ... which brings me to the other side of the coin: there are some people, perhaps many people, for whom the line between fantasy and reality is somewhat blurry. I've seen people convince themselves that someone 'must' love them, because that reflects their fantasy - and such people sometimes become stalkers. For every 10,000 people out there that look at a disturbing image, there's going to be that one person who thinks it is, or should be, real. It doesn't just happen with Playboy or S&M imagery; some people have fixated on the Bible or portions thereof, with equally sickening results. Just recently, a woman became convinced that she had to stone her children to death, a horrifying development. Is the Bible responsible? Are preachers of the Bible responsible? Are people who read the Bible desensitizing themselves to violence? I suspect most people would answer "no". But one should always be aware that when someone lacks that essential knowledge of where to draw the line between what you think about and what you do, anything violent may spark an idea of violence - and the world is full of violence. It's a complicated issue, as human issues tend to be. My personal approach is that people should go ahead and express even their darker thoughts, but should themselves remember, and remind others if they share that expression, that these are thoughts alone, and any intention to shift those towards deeds should merit immediate psychological and/or law-enforcement attention. :) This pushes people away from developing the sort of "groupthink" described by some concerned citizens above, wherein people sharing such thoughts among themselves can weaken the societal messages that Doing This Is Bad. I could only wish more violent action movies came with such disclaimers...

Das Kapital, the Bible, Koran, Torah and Mein Kampf are dangerous only in that a nut case can find justification for a temper tantrum. Art therapy can vent the need for justification at the tap root. Using the highly reliable statistical allocation and normalization tchniques (aka fudging) , it is a factual assertion that roughly 80% of erotic art is rage oriented. Rage dislocation is considered less unbeneficial than rage allocation, however.

Right on. Now I'm gonna go listen to smome Heavy metal, Play some quake and think dirty thoughts :D

Just passing through when I caught this post, part of which made me laugh (the funny ones like dlk30341's), and part of it made me think (like Trairius's). I don't think there is any simple way to answer this question especially with people being the complicated little things we are. You can have one person making Poser pics all day long of all sorts of fantasy images and if faced with the possiblity of having something like that in real life, would cringe. On the other hand, you can have another person look at that same artist's image, and go off on a killing spree. I feel the prime thing is 'Interpretation', how one person's view of something is interpretated by another, and we're nowhere near discovering how we can break that down to something anyone can understand. But I do agree with Triarius, we are all (meaning as individuals and society in general) ultimately responsible for ourselves. The tricky question is how far should that responsiblity go on a personal and social level, and how deep? I'm afraid there's no easy answer. I do know one thing from experience, Poser CAN induce violent episodes.. Aww, my render's lost.. the #($*%^%# thing just craped out on me AGAIN!! unleashes Gorgo, the 600lb gorilla, and points to his computer. Giving a wild cry of delight, Gorgo grabs the computer off the desk, and begins dancing on it, smashing it to pieces Good boy, Gorgo, cage.. Now.. watches Gorgo walk back into his cage, flipping him a treat from his pocket before locking him up again, then reaches for the Sunday ads Now, if you'll excuse me all, I have another computer to buy..

LOL I have threatend my puter with becoming a planter on more then one occasion!

With a friend who is a psychiatrist, I'm starting a project to use poser "morphs" of patients with Anorexia Nervosa and Bulimia, to show themselves in different weights. The idea is to help them (maybe in a virtual environment) to attain a correct perception of body image, which is one of the things they have wrong when they suffer Eating Disorders. Poser models and ambients (Vue or other) can also be used in Virtual Reality as relaxing scenes during painful procedures like the changing of badages in burned patients. VR has shown to be distracting enough to raise pain threashold. We are also using poser animations in showing rehabilitation techniques for diverse disabilities. Although this is no pure psychotherapy, its effect on the patients and ability to follow the exercises can also have good psychological effects. Alberto Odor, MD Mexico City

Those are some very interesting ideas and uses.

Wow, this thread kept going for a while! Anyhow, I thought it was neat about what aodor said about using Poser to reinforce better body perception. Who'd have thought this program could have such an interesting medical/psychological aspect? Personally, I have anxiety and i find that for some reason the poser beach and other scene environments, with their kind of soft lighting and detail, tends to really relax me. I like to load the scene sometimes and just use the camera and sort of "walk" around there for a bit. And yeah I guess i could just go outside but I like Poser a lot! Some times I have dreams in "Poser" format, where I can tell I'm inside a render-scene itself because of the smoothness of the details and whatnot. To me, the poser people always look a bit "off," as if their skin is too shiny or something. Also their eyes almost never look right, which is a little jarring, but the 3D scenes like that one with the beach and the forests and stuff is great. You know the one right?

I like working with Vue for much the same reason. I'm a tree lover.....and Vue creates such marvelous trees! :) I think you're talking about the cyclorama scenes MoxeyH, right?

Wow MoxeyH and sandoppe the treatment of anxiety (in its many forms) can be an other interesting area to research the use of poser and other 3D applications. I'm doing a Masters in Medical Informatics from Oregon Health and Sciences University. I take all the courses online as I live in Mexico City. I attend many Medical Informatics meetings, and let me tell you that one of the fields which makes more use of Virtual Environments is Psychiatry. I'm not a shrink, I'm a surgeon, but for the last 10 years I have only worked in research in any field in which computers are helpful for medicine (any field you can imagine). Telepsychiatry is another very intersting field, in which patients (many of them with anxiety) can get in touch with their therapists by means of internet based teleconferencing or other similar ways. The treatment of diverse phobias (aracnophobia, agoraphobia, acrophobia, fear of flying, social phobia, etc.) have all been succesfully treated with Virtual Reality. What I'm trying to do now is to use Vue, Poser and other programs to create the most realistic visrtual environments and virtual actors for such treatments.

A friend ho is a psychotherapist, comment one of my poser girls as Pygmalion. Something about a statue maker how falls in love with the statue he had made. I believe my creating of virtual worlds is a symptom of something bad, in a therapist viewpoint.

Cyclorama!!! That's what it's called! Can't believe I forgot. I want my next home to be in the cyclorama environment. :)