I'm not sure if this is the right place for this kind of discussion, but since I have no fractal enthusiasts among my friends, I'll give it a shot. I'm fairly new to fractaling, and I love it, but I'm finding it more and more difficult to be unique and interesting. There are some lovely people who post comments on my images, and I'm very flattered, since those people are wonderfully talented. However, as nice as praise is, I've heard or seen little to help me improve. You all are not instructors, nor is this forum a class, but is the work worthy of the doing, and does it really have merit? What makes you look? What would you change? I've noticed what images get the most praise...the vivid, the strong, the colorful. I'm no different from anyone...I'm drawn to the bright and shiny postings here too. But after a while, it's ho hum, another stunning spiral, or yep, a golden beauty. I thought it was most interesting when I got a comment on one of my postings that even mentioned the basic formula I used. That made me smile, but it also told me that everything seems to have been done before. That only urges me to be different, but the difficulty is in being different and still remaining attractive to the viewer. Now another problem in that vein. Apophysis!! I love it and hate it. More and more I'm seeing repetition, which I am guilty of myself. My "springs" series was great fun, and unique, I thought, until I saw similar images on other sites. That is not to minimize the works of the artists, but has Apo given us all the ability to become artistic clones? And if that is so, is there a reason to continue to create? These are just musings, and certainly not criticisms in any way. This community has been so warm and accepting and encouraging and generous. I thank all of you who have commented on my pages, and now I'd like to get your thoughts on why, how, etc. Maybe this is art, maybe it is just fun. Maybe I just need a nap. :) Bee

To me, the thing I strive for the most is to find something different. Apop. is a great program, but so many flames look alike after awhile. I really like the challenge of taking a program that everyone else uses and finding new ways to use that program. Like in Vchira, there is a tab that has a "invert" & "mirror" functions; so many people miss those functions and all the origional fractals that can be created with them. Like you said, the hard part is making it attractive to the viewer. William/paragon5

Hi Bee, Just posted a reply but it doesn't look like it uploaded. So here I go again :-) Several years ago an exhibition of "Old Master" paintings came to our city. You could say many of these paintings had similar themes ie. beautiful women, gentlemen in their finery, bowls of fruit, flowers. Yet despite the similarities each individual painting was breathtaking. I am so glad that the artists never said "oooh, I won't paint this beautiful voloptuous woman because it has already been done so many times". If you look at medieval illuminations you will note that many of them use similar (or even the same) elements such as vines, leaves, border patterns. These often also use a similar colour palette (blue, red, gold). Despite these similarities each piece is still individual and stunningly beautiful. Most arts and crafts are like this in the above regard. They all have their similarities. An artist in any field is only limited by his or her imagination. Develop a thorough understanding of the fractal generators that you use and keep exploring those fractals. Experiment with lighting and colours. Have fun and create fractals that give you joy. Don't worry to much about comparisons. Fran www.arcanefractals.com

Learning to use artistic tools and techniques often results in repetition. As I experiment with using different formulae and colorings, many images have features in common. I see many others doing the same thing. The images are very often pleasing and that is why the artist shares them with the community. If you look at galleries of people who have been here for some time, you can see the way they learned and grew in their art. I think this is wonderful! Most members who comment on an image will find something positive to say. I think if you have an image that you are struggling with and want some hard feedback on, you would do well to post it in here with specific questions on your doubts about it. That way, people might be able to give you valuable advice to help you improve or learn a technique. Just my $.02

For me, I think it's all about the contentment of the artist. Some people are content to stop at a certain point, where others keep working. Neither are wrong, just different approaches. Speeking of Apophysis, it seems that a good amount of people move in packs. When the new waves variation came out, the gallery was full of them. After a while it died down. Now it seems like I'm seeing scripts, specifically spiral scripts, being used heavily. Personally, I don't follow any trends with Apophysis. I try to go in my own direction, as should everyone. I just got through going through all the variations doing pure renders with them (no mixed variations). I also mix my variations for every new fractal I create. Never save entire batches, and never redo a completed fractal, but instead start from scratch every time. I'm not saying people should go to that extreme for everything, but I've learned a ton about Apophysis by doing all of this. I'm a purist at heart. I believe the render should speak for itself and not need postworking to make it great. That's all I'll say about that soapbox. Your posting actually raised two problems. The second problem is the comments. This has been hashed numerous times before and probably will be again, but overall, the feedback should always be constructive for improvements, not just uhs and ahs. I fall into the "excellant" comments sometimes, but I always try to tell the people what and why I like about their image. I'm not going to fix all the problems with this, but hopefully I've given you some things to think about, which is my whole focus in all that I do. Jeff

Im a spiralist Whether in UF or Apo, its what i do. its my style and i stick to it because it pleases me.
I do try other styles ( spheres, abstracts ) on the odd occasion, but i come back to the spirals because i love them.
Like the others have said, i try to experiment, with different formula, texture, colour, composition etc.
Thats where my challenge within myself lies. With each one, somehow, i try to make it unique.
Yes, at the heart of each image, there is a spiral ( same old same old i suppose ) but i try to achieve a different look with each one. Whether its a different group of shapes, or bold vs pastel colours, harsh vs subtle texture etc etc, i try for something different every time.

Just touching on what Tres said, about asking for feedback.. I myself on a couple of occasions have posted an image i wasnt entirely happy with and asked for ways to improve it. And i have been given wonderful suggestions.

I believe there is ALWAYS a reason to continue to create, and that is because you love to do it.
That is my reason anyway.

I fall a lot into the excellent commenting sometimes, but that is because precisely , in my opinion, the image IS.
And along with my excellent, like Jeff, i always try and tell someone what it is that has captivated my attention in their piece.

Thats far more than my 2c ( especially in using the word different ) ;)
Kim.

Message edited on: 06/01/2004 23:59

Fractals do seem very repetitive to me after a while, and I try to take them a step further. Quite often I see fractals as a starting point, and take them into Bryce to make something more out of them. This is a topic I've noticed tackled before in the fractal forum. I've tried writing my own formulas before and they usually just wind up to be variations on the classic mandelbrot formula. The beauty of a fractal doesn't always lie in the artist which is what makes them so mysterious.

Maybe it's just me, but fractals are just another way to express the creative urge that will result in implosion if I don't do it. At the moment they are the way I choose to express that creativity when writers block hits head on. My point? Who cares what everyone else is doing. I never thought of this place as a contest, but a place to share what pleases my mind at the moment. (which is why I generally don't check the "rate this" box) Fractals are numerically based, and while I think there may be an infinate number of ways to change things around, the basics are going to repeat time after time. It's the way things are. What is important is how you decide to play with those images.....what they represent to you, and whether you're pleased with your current effort. Several members here have web sites that give information on how they create their art, etc. and are a valuable resource if you are trying to learn your way around the "how to" aspect. Like anything else worth doing, sometimes the learning is the most gratifying part of the experience. Miriah

What a mixed and wonderful group of replies!! There is much to think about from each posting. I am no artist, and have no background of any kind in art, so I think I tend to minimize (for myself only) what I create in fractals and flames. I give more credit to the programs themselves than perhaps I should. I began fractaling thinking I'd experiment a bit and move back to things I am good at, like gardening and decorating. However I've discovered that I have a fairly good eye for color and shape, and by playing in my programs, I've found things that really give me great joy...to be able to say "wow, I found that in that mess of shapes, and look what I made!!" I'm on all sides of the fence as far as purity...I like to render only, and do no pp, but thats mostly cause I haven't been able to figure out PSP yet. However, I have found some shapes and images that I think stand on their own, and that is what keeps me plugging away when I think my muse has deserted me. I know I'll find something that touches me, or surprises me, or makes me laugh if I just add a layer or subtract a triangle. Yes, there is much duplication in fractaling, but I have to give credit to Fran for reminding me of how touched I am when I go to the museum, and see hundreds of old paintings all similar, and yet all beautiful and different in their own way. And so it is the same with fractals...a million beautiful spirals, each with a touch or a tweak that makes them special. Thank you again for your wonderful, thoughtful responses. Bee

Hi, Bee, you write above that seems all have been done already. Well, it's not. i think personally that even a lifetime wouldn't be enough to try all the opportunities. That's the most wonderful thing in all this stuff.And just a note about how I personally view the other artists works - I like works which brings some information, which are based on an idea or possess some expression or experimenting new ways. These are the things which are making the piece valuable.I do my images slowly, I am not affraid to loose time. Sometimes l need weeks before I get the result I was searching for. And even when I need advice, I am just asking for it here and I recieve serious and based opinions.Greetz, Lisa

1 important thing in creating is be yourself and do what you like. The second thing is do not work within limits ,let your spirit be free,don't think of anything as being impossible ,in creation and the imagination everything is possible. you will be amazed how many things can be seen in apophysis for instance if you create without limits. no.3 Use whatever software is needed and do whatever you think is needed to realise your vision. the 4th thing if you want to know something don't hesitate to ask. If you think I can be of any help you can always IM me. When I comment on an image I say what I feel and think that's all. I don't say anything else because I don't want to push you in any direction,you must move in a direction by your own innerself. Who am I to say what is good or not,I just know if it speaks to me or not,Who am I to say if something needs improvement or not,maybe you like it as it is. As I said before if you want to know something and you think I could be of any help send me an IM. Take care.BrianD aka Longrider.

Oh yeah and 1 more thing try not to look at yourself as an artist...just have fun and above all be free.

Good advice from everyone. Especially the part about doing what pleases you, and that includes dumping this whole artform if you find it boring. I think we all feel the same way about repetition. That's why it's exciting to come up with something ususual and why we see so many compositions. On the other hand, if you were to step outside of this community and look in, you would see people getting excited about the most basic spiral or flame. For example, I saw a fractal image at a fair that won an honorable mention that was pretty basic. I have piles of them just like it, but it impressed the judges. Another example is the Fractal Universe calandar. The images in it are beautiful but they are not that fancy, and I would wager that it is the biggest source of commercially sold fractals in the world. My point is, well, I don't know what my point is. Just don't second guess yourself. Repetition is the foundation and beauty of fractals. Just be sure to have fun. When you get tired of single spirals or flames, try a composition. As soon as you step into that world you have opened yourself up to anything, until you hit your own limitations as an artist. Oh, and as far as comments go, don't bother to fuss about it (like I have). Just go with them. They're part of the package here. If someone asks for help, give it. If not, don't. If you want help, ask for it. Later, Keith

Bee, you said "I give more credit to the programs themselves than perhaps I should." With respect to the art world, one of the largest obstacles the fractal artists are faced with is that many people, and traditional artists in particular, seem to think that the computer creates the art. I've had art show directors tell me "we only accept art that is created by hand." The computer and the software are the tools the fractal artists use, and the fractal artist is the creator. Unless you are using the unaltered parameter set that the formula creates (and therefore the author of the formula created), please don't give the programs the credit for creating art. You are doing it! I create images that I like, for my own amusement and amazement. If others like them, too, that's great! Sometimes they like them well enough to buy them! But I have fun creating them, and I look for something I like, not something that will put me in the fractal-grand-master category. So happy fractaling! Have fun! Keep searching! I like your work and I hope you keep it coming! Linda

Again, I thank you all for your thoughts. You're a great group of artists and thoughtful people. It's a pleasure to be in your company.