boy. how long was I gone? the TOS..it is so lenient now. I guess the phrase careful what you ask for you just may get it applies aptly.
How many of us have had pictures removed due to an erant hand over a breast...or the position of a couple just a bit too close? Quite a few of us I know. Heck a wonderful piece by Miko0 just recently got taken down for what reason god only knows it was most definatly not against the TOS that I could see..but I digress. really I do this is not what it is about.
Now, nudity is all great...I still do nudes. erotica still great...all that great stuff. But for the shock of all heavens...yesterday I ended up in a gallery that made my jaw drop my stomache turn( due to worry not of being grossed out) and my heart sink.
I was sure this was utterly a mistake. the over worked editors missing it. I mean -how- could this be.
so...I wrote the mod of that particular gallery. This morning I got a rather..snippy reply that made my jaw drop even more.
I never thought in a million years that the work I saw in that gallery would of EVER been allowed. but apparently hey Rendo has gone all slick and -with it-. The TOS must be in the dust now. Hey cool, right? sounds like a dream come true.
unfortunatly it is not. While erotica, sensualty, risque, etc etc etc is great and wonderful. the pics I saw danced on another angle. and one that boarders disturbing. IF this is what is allowed now in rendo..IF this is what is ok. then I am sorry ...rendo needs to rethink this. because it will be a matter of time before the site is reported to authorites.
In case you are going to IM asking what gallery? who? oh tell me..dont. Why? because frankly to me this is sick. just plain ole sick. and what is worse the egging on of the comments that were posted to those pics.
Definatly a case of be careful what you ask for you just may get it. But who thought that asking for some freedom in the TOS would of lead to pics like -that- being in here...family site..yea sure..keep telling yourselves that.

Oh and the funniest thing....ohh this is really funny..they said the POSER art was bad...puhleeeeeeease. you MUSt be joking. And since I have heard from the mod of that gallery....heh..guess no need to be reporting. ~just shakes her head~

Well, clearly the mod liked the images. wink nudge bonni

ohh poop I was going to edit and bonni came along~smiles and waves at bonni~ and before anyone goes (repeating what I have myself said) if you dont like dont look..true. but I saw the gallery after the person posted to one of my pics. I always look at a commenters gallery. If it was just plain ole erotica..not a problem. heck I still collect vintage erotica. but...just~shakes her head~...big difference.

Well, I like erotica. I produce erotica, have a whole website dedicated to erotic art and related stuff (links, for example). But I did see the image and I thought that a woman touching her naked genitals was against the TOS, but... ? Isn't it? If so, when did it change? Or are there different standards for different galleries? I'm not being a troublemaker (no, honestly, I'm not), but I'd quite like to know for my own curiosity. bonni

~near chokes on her tea~ Thought so too..but after the response I got from the mod of that gallery..apparently ....what a huge TOS change..perhaps Rendo will team up with 'rotica now. I never thought -I- would be saying a pic went TOO far over the TOS. but lordy if I didnt get to eat my words aye?

Speaking as a long time community member here, and as a father of 2 very young girls, I can empathise with your worries and concerns - i'd be the first to complain if I thought someone was being exploited, or some underrage porn was being solicited here, but speaking as a coordinator (having seen the gallery in question), I personally think that your perceptions on age are incorrect - the subject/artist in question looks the age she states (maybe even a little older), but even if she were actually as much as 5 years younger (which I seriously doubt), she'd be able to post these pics of herself quite safely and legally. The artist/model may be a bit of an exhibitionist, but I don't feel that she is underage in any way. There is no obvious infringement of the TOS here from what I can see (the hand over genitals may be borderline). Decisions on these matters are made based on the opinion of several coordinators, and ultimately one or several moderators.

Well, I'm not talking about anyone's age. I'm genuinely curious about the matter of TOS. Is it or is it not a violation of TOS to have hands on genitals? I believed it was a violation. If it's not, then that opens possibilities for the rest of us to post images we hadn't thought would be allowed here. ;-) bonni

hand on genitals borderline??
pictures have been removed for a hand LOOKING like it was on a breast..but a hand on the genitals in ok?
and yes I have very big concerns for the topic you mentioned. and rightly so(mother of two myself) but before I wrote to the mods I did get a few opinions and each said the same thing "my GOD she is young"
now I know a few fea pics removed from poser galleries for looking too young. I have seen work removed for APPEARING to have a hand in a wrong place..but a clear cut hands on genitals is ok?
~shakes her head~
ok Fake erotica..bad.
REAL erotica ok?
ok so Fake people can not touch or be sexual in anyway..but real naked (or just scantily dressed)woman can?
dont know bout you...butthat does -not- make sence.
Also..family site...HELLO?
Kids will be harmed for looking at a poser FAKE person in a compramising potion....but kids wont be harmed for looking at REAL woman in THAT position?
ok something not quite right in that equation...

Message edited on: 06/14/2004 10:24 second edit love the edit button: sitting here thinking of it...you know it is not that the nudity bothers me god knows come on look at my gallery. I am being dead seriouse about the TOS thing and the appearance of this. You claim to want to keep it clean and family oriented. but sorry that is not what it is doing. (for those that use to say about not wanting their kids looking heh..boy I do understand now. boy eating lots of words today) I have no trouble with my girls seeing nudity. but THAT..whoa nelly. Maybe somehow I got prudish( I doubt that) but comeon be real

Message edited on: 06/14/2004 10:37

{Well, I'm not talking about anyone's age.} DarkElegance was. I have put the image in question forwards and asked for other opinions.

yes I (and I am not alone)Thinks she looks awefully young. but that aside. clear cut no questions genital contact in a very explicate way. Clear cut TOS violation.
sorry, but when I glanced at that...for the-first- time I told my daughter to go out of the room.
I am not a prude. But if you are claiming the site is family friendly, ok(nudity and all is more then ok) then make it that way and not pick and choose. it is plain, clear and simply a major TOS violation.
also the snippy way the mods answer. you know..sorry but that is wrong. I know you guys are over worked and sometimes under appreciated. But no reason to answer with such a clipped and snippy tone when someone is just trying to point something out(love the edit button) That was ment from the IM not your posts.didnt want to cause confusion.

Message edited on: 06/14/2004 11:04

Message edited on: 06/14/2004 11:05

why bring this public if you won't share the link? is there an secondary motive?

not one bit. but apparently I am not the only onethat has complained there are comments on her pics asking if it was renderotica. comments posting the TOS. do NOT accuse me of some secondary motive. trust me I have NONE. do NOT go there. I was out right shocked at seeing these pics. I just showed them to someone that knows a thing or two about matters shown in those pics and got the same reaction I did about her age and her look. so do not try and mud sling. Nice try though. I came upon the gallery because the woman posted a nice comment to one of my works. I thanked her and went to look at her gallery and had my jaw drop. so please just...dont go there.

I havent seen the image {have no clue where it is}..but if there are hands touching genitals, then I figure DE has it right and its a TOS violation...shouldnt matter 'where' on this site it is..the rules should be the same all the way across the board.

ohhh very touching genitals...VERY unmistakeably touching.~shakes her head~ and you all have seenme post about nudity and erotica and nothing wrong with it. but ...guh...and I -know- I am not the only one on this particular gallery.

I saw the image when it was uploaded (yesterday some time) and thought about reporting it as a possible TOS violation, but figured that other people would report it, and I'm not that big on reporting stuff as TOS violations, to be honest (now and then I will, sort of as a favor to the mods, just so they can look at stuff they might not have seen, but generally I don't).

I kinda guessed which image DE was talking about (and then that was confirmed in a private conversation with her).

I just want to know the actual ruling for clarity's sake. :-)

And yes, it's touching genitals as in, using a hand to cover bare gentialia from viewer, with hand squarely between open legs. Very pretty erotica, actually, but probably inappropriate for Renderosity under the current TOS.

bonni

Message edited on: 06/14/2004 13:14

Ohhhhh...that has GOT to be a RR TOS violation..and I agree there isnt anything 'wrong' per say with the image itself.. {Except 'the site' its posted at} but RR needs to define what's what around here..and either remove it, or open the doors. Can't have your cake and eat it too ;)

Please IM me the link And I will put it to review. Thanks Spike

Thanks Spike :)

The image in question has now been put up for review. Thanks SPike

What's to review? The TOS clearly states (and I quote): "No Genital contact with ANY object, other than sitting or clothing." Can't get any clearer than that, IMO. Sheesh, it's not even debatable as far as the TOS is concerned. Oh well, no skin off my nose. I don't care if the image stays or goes. It's just the principle of the thing - if yer gonna have a TOS and yer gonna enforce it, you gotta make it apply to everyone, no ifs, ands or buts. Kate The Opinionated

We don't just pull images without a review. it's how the system works. We put all images through a review process to try and see all sides. Thanks for your understanding.

In one of the comments for my photos I was informed about this discussion. I couldnt believe that anyone would talk about me. At first I had to laugh about... because Im a nothing more than a grain of sand on Renderosity. Im sure you talking about two of my uploaded (and since today from the stuff deleted) images: D"ressed in Black - No. 18" and the other variation "Negative pattern - Black & White" If some people of you could see... that were the most opened pics of my gallery. Only a little sentense for cogitation (and then look about my bryce images... almost nobody attended tho them... only sexual things are really interested for the most people... The most viewed images are such with naked breasts on the thumbnail). Im actually very sorry about the problems and the trouble in the community, that my amateurish photos have initiated. I dont want that children watch nude and erotic photos. But I thought as a member of Renderosity since over a year... every day watching the galleries... that there is SO MUCH nudity, rubber look, fetish, SM... and such things - in Poser, 2D and Phtography gallery. I believed, I wouldnt violate the TOS or the alignment of any people over the world. THE ONLY REASON for touching my vagina was, that I thought to upload a pornographic image, if I did not do this. I for my self think, that the picture looks more sensual than vulgar or something else. As anyone dont know about what image were speaking he could take a look on www.renderotica.com (A server from which I was informed yesterday). I hope with all persons who likes excellent art, that the TOS may be changed over the years... but it shouldnt be bad for the young boys and girls. Its a very difficult decision to change in the right way. I hope that all of you like some of my photos. I want to be a "benefit" (?) for you all... not a reason to be angry about. Yes Im 23 years old. I was born in September 1980 ;-) I like it to hear, that I look younger :-) I were devout and well-educated from my parents. I didnt had freedom and fun in my youth like other people have. I married as a virgin. You see... my parents tried to to all for a honest daughter... But now I WANT to live. I wanted to upload these pictures because not everyone does it... without beeing a pin-up-girl or actually a porn-star. Now I hope you dont think so about me. The pics were taken from my boyfriend with my new digital camera. Both of us hadnt take photos before. The sessions were for fun and we didnt know about the result. But I thought the result was great and thats the reason why I try to upload some of it. Last but not least I HOPE you all tell me personally, when there are problems with my uploaded artwork. Best wishes and a great day for you all (here in Germany its now midnight) Janine

TMI

yep - TMI.....

You asked for it... ~S

Lemme see ...TMI. Too much information? Well, she slipped a link to "the other site" in there, along with her autobiography. What's wrong with getting to know somebody?

So it's fine for people to make a public discussion about some uploaded artistic photos but it's "TMI" for the person involved to explain herself??? Talk about childish. Janine - You keep up the good work. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the photos. They have artistic merit and are not offensive in my opinion. As for the TOS I only have to say that there is something wrong if it is against the TOS to cover up nude body parts yet showing the uncovered parts is fine. It is a hand covering something for crying out loud. It is not a picture of a "toy" being used in a blatantly sexual manner. It is not a hand being used in a sexual manner. A very sad state of affairs when people have nothing better to do than complain about nothing.

Who's complaining? I could care less what she uploads myself. I am assuming that the two in question were pulled so I can't say anything positive or negative about either. I do think the rest of the stuff is tastefully done.

And yep, TMI. She shouldn't really have to explain herself at all

Message edited on: 06/14/2004 19:49

Well I do agree that she should not have to explain herself.

I'm with Kayjay....She did NOT need to explain herself...nothing childish about that. Who's complaining??? I was NOT. So please don't get all snitty about nothing....

Message edited on: 06/14/2004 20:20

I normally wouldn't comment on something like this especially since I didn't see the images in question...but I feel the way the situation was handled is a little childish...I agree with Janine that the matter should have been brought to her...if you have a problem with someone's image the polite and adult way to handle the situation is to IM that person with your problem and if that person is unresponsive or rude then take it to an higher authority...that may not be the way the site mandates but as an adult most situations are best handled one on one...blasting someone in the forums is not the most adult approach...although it can be understandable if you are just asking for a clarification of the rule...a simple, I think this image is against the TOS does anyone else agree and most importantly can mods take a look...in this case it seems that Janine was just unaware of the TOS clause which when you really think about it is overbroad and makes little sense...maybe the TOS are a bit moronic in the sense that it is wrong to cover up nudity but perfectly okay to show nudes...as a big fan of nudity presented in an artistic manner (which is of course subjective) I just find it strange that a show of artistic modesty is penalized but just straight unartistic nudity is not...my understanding of the motive behind that particular clause in the TOS is that you don't want to show anyone masturbating not that you didn't want people to coverup... If I offended anyone I sincerely apologize for the effect of my words but not the content and if you are really sore about it just IM me and we can discuss your feelings...I'm always open to the possibility that I'm wrong and to Janine..I hope this matter is solved in your favor and maybe a change or clarification of the TOS will come out of it...your work is wonderful for an amateur and I hope you keep at it and keep posting...regardless of this...Jenn

The problem was NOT about nudity..it was about the TOS concerning anything 'touching' genitals other than clothing or sitting...and I think the TOS is clear enough on that point.

Janine, it's a beautiful photograph. Said so already. I think it's really lovely. My only question was regarding the TOS, and absolutely nothing personal. I actually quite LIKE the image :-)

Don't take any of this personally, as I'm sure that the people in this thread don't have any issues with you (and most of us have no issue with the image ;-)

bonni

Message edited on: 06/14/2004 22:17

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=693347&Start=1&Sectionid=0&filter_genre_id=53&WhatsN

We don't just pull images willy-nilly... even if they are an obvious violation of the TOS. We post them in the staffroom and have other eyes look and make judgement calls. Often it is simply confirmation "yup, gotta go", but sometimes we disagree over the borderline ones, and get another couple of opinions. There must be a valid reason before pulling an image. Bad art or crappy lighting are not valid reasons (pity?), but hands touching genitals or manipulating the nipples are against the TOS. When we pull an image, we specify the clause. Reviewing an image does take a day or two... sometimes more if we are reviewing a large gallery. However, review is what makes the process fair. I can not delete an image simply because I don't like it. Review means that the reason for deletion is approved or denied. It is judgement by a team. It is one of the protections built in to serve your interests. As humans, we have our biases, our good days and our bad days. A team of people balances that out. Carolly Poser Coordinator

Umm..well if thats the case, so be it. I do believe some of the other sites have a "holding area" where possible offending images are held from public view until admins determine whether the image violates the TOS or not. Maybe 'Rosity should consider implementing such a plan while hard-core S&M rope bondage images are being reviewed.

Just a suggestion.

{ so be it. I do believe some of the other sites have a "holding area" where possible offending images are held from public view until admins determine whether the image violates the TOS or not. Maybe 'Rosity should consider implementing such a plan } bshafer - that's what Carolly just described - images are reported by other users of the site (like in this case) or are found by coordinators/moderators and either deleted immediately (if there is absolutely no doubts of TOS infringement) otherwise they are posted in a staff forum where other opinions are saught. :)

I didn't read it that way. Carolly's statement seems to imply that the image will stay in the gallery for "a day or two" while being posted and reviewed in the "staffroom" also.

If I am mistaken, she needs to be more explicit in the description of the reviewing process. Since the image is still in the gallery, I believed that was the case. :)

Oh I see - sorry, I missed the intent in your post too - yes images remain where they are whilst being reviewed - probably based on 'innocent until proven guilty', and in this case, without custody prior to trial. :)

bshafer difference in that link you showed and the pic mentioned.
1-I have NEVER had a problem with nudity or erotica. Plain and many times stated. The line was crossed in the pic in question and actually boarderlined in a few.
2-the Person is beautiful no doubts about it. but beautiful or not what was shown was just not acceptable.
3-Nearly everyone of us has had worked removed due to a TOS for one reason or another or someone question it. From "her hand APPEARS to be on her breast" to "they LOOK to sexual together" for a picture of a couple. With that in mind I find it very close to the apparently truth what Bonni said in her post in this thread(post number2)
Apparently it is if a person likes the pic or not. if they person is titilated with it that makes the difference if it stays or not. -that- is not right nor fair to other artists in here.
3-to answer the snippet about the "take it to the person not a mod' no. I did not know the person on a personal level. 9 times out of 10 you do not get a friendly response nor action taken. THe person had been noted in a picture BEFORE the one in question with a link to the TOS. The person was FULLY aware of it. As the more adult thing. Oh PULLLLEease. I have seen some of the posters here level down far below this is more then a few threads but nice try. Frankly I do not give a herrings tail fin if you think it was adult or not. I didnt post her name. The topic was to express the disbelievement about the level of some of the TOS violating pictures that now call rendo home, specially since I have seen FAR less get yanked. Heck I have seen pics get yanked and near everyone goes "what the heck was THAT taken down for" but something like the one in question stays?
now if the same picture had been at renderotica...no prob.(the thread was not about the artistic merrit of it at all please note that though I know more then a few will not, just so they can try and jab with a few more sticks}

Now here is something I am betting 90% of you are not thinking about. that I realized with droping my jaw over these pics and geting a better opinion on them then just my opinion.
What if someone here...didnt report to the mods..or report to the person herself BUT just went and reported Rendo for breaking the Obsenities laws? ( Ididnt even know that could be done till someone said to me "hey you need to reported it or someone will take the site down for breaking the obsenity laws") I had no clue about them. Did abit of peaking around.
On more then a few of the sites I looked at for info...it was stated a site can be closed down and FINED or worse for housing in plain public site pictures that are considered pornagrapic or of an adult nature that -underage children can freely view-.
guess what. we ALL know there are children here under that age.
So tell me. would you rather prefer someone NOT speaking up and Rendo geting shut down? a Possible report made on it? or rather someone take it to the Mods?
See frankly the name calling here of "secondary motive" and " more adult thing" do not phase me in the least.
I have always loved erotic art have spoken for a more lenient TOS. but one thing is erotic, or sensual or nudity and another is grabbing your crotch in a near close up.
If you can sit here and tell me FAKE poeple doing it is bad but REAL people doing it is ok. then something is wrong.

Also if you noted, as I said I find it ironic that I had to post something because of the times I had fought for erotica to be allowed. I had to swallow my words because now I understand a few of those people that were saying they didnt like having to send their children out of the room when they looked at rendo.
~chuckles~ and of course the people that 'liked' the pic arent going to "complain" they ...well....er..""liked"" it.
there is a time when titilation goes -too- far. and the photos where geting more and more over the TOS line.

Also ...I bet that if Vicki or Steph petit where posed in that same manner....and posted I bet 10 to 1 she would be yanked down. (really love the edit button) Oh and as Ijust said to someone in IM. the reason I didnt link to the pic{please also note the aformentioned finding out about something called the obscenities law} is because I didnt want a ton of people running to the pic which we all know would of included -underage- kids. (afer all we all where that age and know darn well and good the "ohhh we HAVE to go see how bad it is" syndrom}

Message edited on: 06/15/2004 08:04

{Apparently it is if a person likes the pic or not. if they person is titilated with it that makes the difference if it stays or not. -that- is not right nor fair to other artists in her} And that is obviously not the case - it's foolish to make those kind of assumptions.

The TOS is easier? Tell that to the many pissed off people who lost the OT forum for no reason at all and left rosity because of it.

Bone, as far as I can tell, you guys are still here, and you're all welcome here AFAIK. This site is inclusive, and it's not gonna ban anyone due to religious or political beliefs, not gonna ban anyone who wants a return of the defunct OT forum. It might seem like you guys are gone, but that's just the blessed "sounds of silence" from the old OT forum you're hearing. ;-)

not blessede to me, took away my home, the one thing I could always count on. I'm a bit lost without it. It waqs a great joy to me

DarkElegance, I didn't intend to derail your thread and points of view with that link I posted. I was merely curious about the reviewing process of possible TOS violations since Spike brought up that point earlier in this thread.

That's all.

"It might seem like you guys are gone, but that's just the blessed "sounds of silence" from the old OT forum you're hearing. ;-)" For your nightmare I'm still here! Is very funny how some "artists" do love CENSURE, they do love finding and delating (denouncing) things that are supposed to be "inappropriated"........

This matter is closed.... We reviewed the images in question and took action as needed. Thanks Spike