bye

Really incredible.

yes incredible

There's more to being "professional" than delivering a quality product. The devil is in the details ... one being service, another being courteous.

You've hit the nail on the head there PabloS.

I repeat 1 2 3 times ... now i don't want modify my price or undersale or make a pack to half price ... so: i have explane my points ... so who don't want understand ????

I'm not trying to say you should lower your price ... just that you should be more sensitive to potential customers before touting yourself as professional. Be willing to listen rather than going on the defensive is a start. These people were actually making sound statements providing recommendations that would increase your potential profitability (something a professional would be interested in) but you cut them down.

thx for your suggestions so ... but i too can give suggestions ;-)

I don't think there is any discourtesy intended here. You all have to remember andygraph is not a native English speaker, so sometimes the nicteies of communication are lost. I bought the complete ITA 02 package and got the freebie, and now I have the ITA03 package. Both are incredible in the amount of detail and flexibility they offer. There's a massive amount of work put into them and I for one think they are worth the price. I make and sell textures, so I know the amount of work goes into these things. Remember, I also made an alternate texture set for ITA02, and I was nearly tearing my hair out at the amount of work incvolved. I can understand how some potential buyers would think it's a high price, well, so did I but I bought the packs separately when I could afford them. I think it's unfair to say what a right or wrong price should be, and doubly unfair when you accuse a merchant of poor customer service when they won't give in to badgering. The price is right for some people, not right for others. The merchant has a right to set the price of their choosing, and that should be the end of the matter.

many thx Sam ;-) I hope this your comment can to clarify all now.

SamTherapy, I've seen you on the forums and have a great deal of respect for what I've seen you both post and offer as products in the marketplace. I also noted that you were one of the purchasers that left a review on the product. But, I must disagree with the statement of "badgering." My initial post on the topic was intended as a suggestion that would (IMO) make all parties happy.. The Vendor would have almost guaranteed increase of sales.. and potential customers (like me) would have an easier time getting a higher quality product. This suggestion was met with, what in my opinion is, rudeness. I wish him all the luck with future sales... sincerely.. but I will not be one to do so simply for his statements.

LeeEvans, first to give a negative comment about a product is better try it first or your comment will not have a real value.

Andygraph, I can't test a product I cannot afford.. that was the point of my first post: "I have seen the products in the marketplace for a very long time... and I drool at the dream of someday owning them, however... I am on a severely fixed income (I have been disabled since I was 21) and will likely never have the $$ to spend on all 5 of the products." - In addition.. if you notice, I never said it was a poor product, quite the contrary... my "negative statements" have been due to my perception of your "customer service."

Message edited on: 06/14/2004 14:07

ok sorry ;-) but anyway i repeat again ... the products are stand alone LeeEvans ... so you can bulding character step by step ... you don't have 10 or 14 dollars for take your first part ?

Message edited on: 06/14/2004 14:14

Lee, I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about andygraph's rudeness. I honestly believe there was no intent there and it's more to do with something being lost in translation, as it were. And maybe you're right on my comment about badgering. It seemed that way to me at the time, though. I'm just trying to defend a merchant here but I'm not going to attack another forum member (you or anyone else) in the process. As for the product review I left, that's my total honest opinion of the set.

Andy, Let me explain... I make $715.00 a month... After rent, utilities, food, and other required expenses.... I have very little left in the way of "free money" ... more accurate to say I almost never do... this is NOT your problem, and I understand this completely... But, with as many posts from people here on limited incomes, my suggestion was just that... a suggestion that I felt would benefit all.. you AND potential customers. Your responses to that suggestion has been, AGAIN IMO, rudeness... Yes, you have stated time and again that the product is "as is" an you will not bundle-package it for a lower price. Kudos to you for sticking to your guns. However, in being so rigid, you have shown me that you do not care what a customer, or potential customer thinks or feels.. you are (seem) to be more motivated by how much you get for it. THAT attitude is what I choose not to support. Do you understand my point? I realize that English is not your native language. Lee

Well, native english speaker or not, all I saw here from the merchant WAS rude comments. I sure hope it is due to language problems and that it is not reflecting the true attitude of the vendor. Professionalism is not just about how you CREATE your stuff.

Pablos, all comments well presented and agreed with. As a Poser merchant myself, I always go back in forth in my mind how I can offer the best value for something I create. Sometimes (like with the hippolicious stuff) it creates A LOT more work on my part.. but I try to look at other products out that I've purchased myself, and what I thought was a good value for the money, and what I didn't. IMHO, that's part of being a professional artist and valuing opinions of potential customers is VERY important as well. Some people liek to keep everything under wraps until it's released.. I'd MUCH prefer getting feedback before I release something, and find out that I either screwed something up many people want, or that someone comes up with a great idea that I'd wished I'd implimented.

I'm sorry LeeEvans, sorry if i don't understand you, i hope to you in future will not have problem to purchase any product on MP.

I agree with you ernyoka1 .. and i believe about respect for the work of a guy and his value too.

Gareee,
Ah! You brought up another good point. Value. A good number of people, probably the majority, also factor "service" into that equation. An arrogant, argumentative attitude doesn't instill confidence that service will be delivered and the market will determine it's value, not the merchant ... which is generally the case anyways (economics 101) and the point others were trying to make.

Message edited on: 06/14/2004 19:40

There are some tensions and implications in this thread which may or may not be merited. I do not wish to see it spiral downwards into an unprofitable argument from what are obviously fixed positions. Carolly Poser Coordinator

I don't want this thread to descent into mudslinging either. I admire the innovative thinking that made those cyborgs possible, it is a novel idea and apparently very well executed (I do not own them so I can only judge from the marvellous pictures) It only goes to show how carefull you have to be when you're not a native english speaker, to not thread on someone's toes. Now, being one of the foreigners myself, I do take care, yet I've probably crossed some limits over time too, due to ignorance. If you're finding yourself in something that is, or easily could develop into, an argument, it is often best to leave in silence, unless you're VERY sure of how to argue without throwing a fit. There are LOTS of threads here where I have wanted to say something, but has eventually stayed out of, because I wasn't sure how to phrase my words so that they wouldn't be misunderstood. This has nothing really to do with the Andygraph personally. It is triggered by this thread but could as well have been triggered by someone else. Andygraph makes some very fine products. If he chooses not to put them in bundles or on sale, then it is his descision is his, and his alone. He sticks to that descision, and that's admirable.

This is really going overboard. I can certify that most of this is due to a language problem. Andygraph contacted me to try and explain me better in Italian how the product works and how to customize it for other figures. He was very kind and helpful even if Im not one of his customer and even if we remained on topic, that is his products and how they work, and didnt touched the corollary of customer service, from our discussion I think I understand his point. When he say that he is a pro illustrator he doesnt say it for vanity, but he means that he do it for a living and having been exploited myself in the past I can understand how one could make a principle of being paid what he thinks is due for his work. His livelihood depends on his ability to be paid fairly for the work he does. To say that he offer bad customer service because he does not want to sell at the price YOU WANT is wrong IMHO. We were all spoiled by DAZ and the other big Poser stores that have huge catalogues and resources and can afford to undervalue their best products and sell them as loss leader for 1,99 to increase sales of other items. He set his prices based on the time and effort invested and thinks that those prices are fair both for himself and his customer. Maybe he is wrong, maybe not. What he said is simply this: Do you think that the product is worth the price? Then buy it. Do you think that the product is not worth the price? Then no problem, dont buy it The fact that most people here are hobbyist is just OUR problem. I too right now have to buy what I need or could use for a picture, but it is only my fault if I cant find the time to improve my skill. Sorry I had to add my 2 cents because I read some unpleasant and really unneeded comment about how WE in Italy treat our client that really unset me.

Hmm A post like # 52 where Andygraph only says "bye"... I dunno.. Saying "ciao" to someone may be nice in italy, but to only post a "bye" in english would be considered rude by a lot of people, like he's dismissing them, turning his back on them. He does it twice really, some posts higher up So Jeff i can't help you: if you want buy .. fine, if not .. is not my problem, bye. , and at that point he should have discovered (IMO) that such an attitude (whether he intended it or not) was seen as rude, yet he posts a simple "bye" later on. I AM sure it's all caused by language problems. It just (unfortunately) doesn't change the fact that he has alienated a lot of potential customers here. And that's a real shame, I think. Those cyborgs are awesome. Expensive, but again, if you can't afford them, don't buy them. At least there's SOME consolation in a merchant that doesn't put his (or her) stuff on sale all the time - Noone will buy it when it's a the regular price if something is on sale every second week. Now we KNOW we won't have to wait for Andygraph to have a sale :o) The price will remain the same. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Jeff i'm sorry, wrote what you don't have understand in readme file of my products and how i need write it. About the prices of my products, how i has say,i don't will make any sales or pack to low price: for the real value of my product, and respect for who has purchase it before. Best Regards; Andygraph

To those who are griping and crabbing about the cost of Andygraph's stuff, let remind you that 'rosity takes 50%, that's HALF of price on anything sold here so on a $40 sale you come up with -$20 for 'rosity's cut leaving $20 for the merchant THEN, you take off whatever the exchange rate is for the home country of the item's creator, the Euro in this case, so a $40 item ain't getting the creator any more than a $20 dollar bill and that's ONLY if the creator lives in the US. btw, that $20 is currently only 16.47 euro so Andygraph ain't making a lot per sale

True, Charlie :o) But that goes for ALL the merchants here though. And still imo it's better to sell 10 sets of 20$ than 2 of 40. But that's just me.

Maybe there's a few more bites taken out of that 20 other than the conversion rate that has to be figured in too

My opinion: I am European, and we do have a less strict "code" of behaviour when it comes to rudeness etc. The aruments Andy uses "when you don't buy it's not my problem, bye" is typical and normal when adressing people who want to bargain prices etc on markets. Some of you here want him to become cheaper. Your argument about "lower incomes" is also an argument of bargaining. Did you ever think of the hours Andy put into this? About the fact that he probably isn't a millionnaire himself who creates out of a strong sense of charity? The textures he creates, and the msehes most probably also are without doubt amongst the most difficult ones to create and he succeeds with flying colours. So, to come to the point: he uses the normal evryday speak of mediterranean people when someone wnts to bargain, and his top-quality works come at a price. If you can't pay for it, well, most people in the world don't even have a computer. Or even good food or medical care. Your country's economic power lies in its freedom of trade, and those who are shipwrecked can do their round of dustbins each day. Please recognise your desire to possess Andy's work and if you want to bargain: do it by e-mail or private messages, not in public.

Aeneas: You said it: ""when you don't buy it's not my problem, bye" - he uses the normal evryday speak of mediterranean people" :o) Well, I'm European too, and if a RL merchant spoke to me that way, I would walk away in fury and never set foot in that store again. It may be normal in Italy but I can assure you it is NOT in Denmark, and I've never encountered it in other northern european countries either. And once again it just goes to show how carefull you have to be when you are dealing with foreigners. They may not understand you or your intentions. I am sure by now, that Andygraph didn't in any way mean to insult people, but the fact is that it was CONCIEVED that way. The damage is done so to speak. Apologies (and I'm not saying Andygraph should apologize) doesn't always heal broken relations.

sorry ernyoka1 but who have insult first me or JeffAlberts? this is the REAL question ;-)

I don't have make any insult.

Andygraph, I am sure you have not intended to insult anyone. But you may have. By accident, the way you replied. That's all.

I don't have any comment about pricing, but I do want to say that andygraph really went out of his way to help me with his products. I think it was the 02 series (don't exactly remember, not at my Poser computer right now)...it comes as separate textures that you map onto a copy of the obj. I was TOTALLY confused, and had a lot of trouble with the readme instructions, and tried to get the hang of the process for days. Finally, I wrote to andygraph, and after trying to assist me via IM, he took several hours with me on chat and walked me step by step through the entire process. While his native language is not English, he explained himself well, and was VERY patient. I would not have been able to utilize the textures without his help. There may be misunderstanding here because of some cultural and language differences, but my experience with andygraph shows that he cared about making certain I was able to use his product, and the amount of time he spent with me made it very clear to me.

many thx Djeser ;-)

please ernyoka1 ... read all steps here and read better who have give support to begin and who have only obstinately UNDERVALUE with conceit and obstinately my products to 50 percent and more under of REAL value.

Ahh and more, i don't take the 100 percent of my sale!

If you say "my read me file is not wrote fine"good i can rewrote it if you explane where is wrong, but about other points .....

Message edited on: 06/16/2004 12:55

Folks, it's andygraph's choice what price he asks. Personally, I wouldn't be as definite about never reducing the price. I can see the markets shift as new versions of Poser, Vicky, or anything else, are released. Eventually, it might be a choice between cutting the price of an old product and not selling it. And it's still andygraph's choice. But how much Poser 3 stuff is selling now?

many thx AntoniaTiger ;-)

Hey! I haven't objected a second to Andygraphs prices. Nor have I said anything bad about his products. I am TRYING HARD to explain to him why some people see it as an insult when all he says is "bye" But since it's like talking to a wall, I will now leave this thread with a bye.

I understand your point ernyoka1 ;-) But first i has wrote "bye" (... hmm .. this insult ?!) ok, anyway, another "guy" have wrote things many more heavy to me ..

I hesitate to trample upon free speech, but feel that it is better to lock this thread before people say things which may be regrettable. Positions are hardening, and nothing constructive is coming from continued conversation despite my reminder 20 posts ago. Therefore, I am locking this thread. Carolly Poser Coordinator