I'm trying to model a set - a room - in Carrara for turning into a set figure with props in Poser4. I'm having trouble figuring out what dimensions I should use in Carrara to have it be the appropriate size for MM figures in P4. Currently from Carrara to Poser4 the floor is too small - even when I use real world dimensions like 22ft wide in Carrara. I guess my question is - Should I bother with the correct scale at the modelling phase? or should I just scale the imported obj prop to the right dimensions once I'm in Poser and then save the relevant figures and props. Or could any set makers, like the person who made The Greek Bath (new at Daz), or Awful Soul (didn't you make an set?) explain what it is that they do to go from the modelling app to the Poserfy-ing of it in Poser? I guess another point that's cloudy to me is if I should import the prop into Poser with the "percent of standard figure" box checked or not (and if yes, is a number higher than the default 100 recommended)? Lastly, I loaded a M2 figure into Poser and with the Box prop made a floor the size I want in proportion to the loaded Mike and exported that as an obj and then imported it into Carrara and it was still smaller than I expected and small for the imported mike that was all ok in Poser... Hmmm Thanks, anyone.

Nope and sort of. Correct scale will not make much of a difference to Poser as its universe is on the <1 scale (1.0000 = 1 Poser unit = ~8 ft). You can import using "percent of standard figure" or scale it in Poser, but you must then export as Wavefront obj and reimport with no settings checked before making into a figure/prop/etc. so that the new "scaled" model is used instead of the original unscaled model. Can't help with Carrara... Kuroyume

My own experience is with 3DS Max, but I guess it can be applied to any modelling package. Poser works on a really tiny scale, compared to most other apps. When working in Max, I usually load a M2 figure for reference (it's imported at about 1000x size if I remember correctly). When I export the modeled object, I reduce the size by 100x, then load it in Poser (do not use the 'percent of standard figure' option and the object will be loaded at its original scale) and rescale it to fit. I then export the result from Poser as an OBJ and , eventually after processing it with UVMapper, I import it back in Poser where it now has the proper size. There are a few export/import cycles, but this works nicely. So , to answer your main question, you should take care to get the proportions right but not necessarilly the scale, as that can be corrected later.

Ah, that makes sense, Kuroyume. It certainly is a more carefree method to use. I did make an earring prop once where I just scaled the object once I got into poser and then when I saved it as a prop, it kept all the new dimensions - I didn't include the obj even - didn't have to; the prop .pp2 file had all the object instructions in it along with the saved size. But perhaps since the floor is going to be a figure (.cr2), I have to include the obj and as such the method you describe makes sense. Thanks! Dave *This doesn't have to close the thread though, folks. If any of you have other ideas/methods/pointers, chime in.

Thanks, Evanara! Good explanation as well. I'm glad I asked now because it's troubled me for a long time - I've been tripped up by the actual simplicity of it. Mike comes into Carrara at 2533.25x his P4 scale - which is bigger than it needs to be in Carrara and fit in its modelling workspace - so knowing I can just scale him down and then model proportional around him and fuss later is perfect (or what I called 'carefree' in my other post). Thanks, folks! : ) Dave

I use the "Poser model as reference" approach too. I model in Max, but I just make the model there so that it looks right. Sometimes I work to scale, but mostly just the "this looks right". Then I import it into Poser and scale it THERE untill it "looks right" again, compared to V3 or something. I then export the obj and when you re-import it with ALL boxes unchecked (also export it with everything unchecked) it comes in, at 100% and in the right size.

It is really easy to model in precision scale and export to Poser if you understand both the scale system of your modeling program and the scale system of Poser.

Most programs use scale systems that set their basic internal document unit (1.0000) to represent inches, feet, meters or milimeters. Poser uses the PU system (no pun intended) where a basic Poser Unit of 1.0000 is equivalent to 8 feet (96 inches) in other programs. That is why the people who use a reduction factor of 100 get close results (provided they were modeling in inches in their program). But if they were to use a reduction factor of 96 instead of 100 they would achieve PRECISION results.

Another issue to consider when exporting for Poser is the position of the model (although Poser does allow you to center and place on floor when things go wacky - but that should not be necessary and does you no good when you have to import several parts that must fit together precisely) - So, when you scale for export you MUST use the global axis (world axis) as the scale center rather than the object axis. If you use the object axis even with the proper factor, the model will come into Poser the right size, but NOT in the right place.

Think about that for a moment and imagine that you have modeled a part that is only 12 inches off center (it would seem that that would come into Poser SOMEWHERE near the center doesn't it?). In fact, if you bring that object into Poser it will come in 96 FEET away from the center and probably completely out of the Main Camera range.

So, not only do OBJECTS have to be properly scaled, but DISTANCES do too and the World Coordinate System is where distances are measured, so that is what you should use for export. If you use a plugin to scale and export your model be SURE that it uses the world axis for the scale center. If it only uses the object axis and you have no choice, then you should NOT use the plugin for scaling - instead use your modeling program to scale down (using World Axis) before exporting and then in the plugin use a scale factor or 1 (100%).

To further make our lives more difficult, different modeling programs use different ways of scaling an object. Some use scale multipliers (Rhino), some use reduction factors (3DS-MAX) and some use scale percentages (Truespace).

For example here is how each of these scale systems represent the same thing if you are modeling in INCHES and want to reduce to Poser Units which are 96 times larger and therefore have to be scaled down to 1/96th of the original.
if you model in INCHES:
-- Using a reduction factor, 1/96 = Reduction X 96
-- Using a scale multiplier, 1/96 = 0.0104167
-- Using a scale percentage, 1/96 = 1.04167%

Knowing that One Poser Unit equals 8 feet (96 inches) EXACTLY, you can calculate the factors for any other modeling scale. For example if you model in FEET you need to reduce the model to 1/8th of its original size:
-- Using a reduction factor, 1/8 = Reduction X 8
-- Using a scale multiplier, 1/8 = 0.125
-- Using a scale percentage, 1/8 = 12.5%

It really is simple once you understand the process, but explaining it is much harder to do, so I hope I havent confused everybody ;-)

Evanara's system is pretty good, but it has 2 problems. One is (as ronstuff pointed out) that it's not entirely accurate. The other is that it only works with 3d max and obj export.

I use 3d max, but I hate the obj export, so I use 3ds export instead. I've developed a system which works, and not only that, will work with any 3d app at all, and is accurate. Here goes....

I model in max units, but your modelling unit can be centimeters, inches or miles. Doesn't matter. I calculate sizes as shown below, and import each piece into poser using the 'percentage of figure size'. If my object is 50 units, I import at 50%.

centimeters x .5918 = units
units x 1.69 = centimeters

So, using the object at 50 units as an example,

50 x 1.69 = 84.5 centimeters

I import it at 50% into poser and it's balls-on accurate.

If I want to do it the other way, it's like this. My original real-life object is 120 centimeters high, so,

120 x .5918 = 71.016 units

I make the model in max at 71.016 units, export the 3ds and import it to poser at 71.016% and it's 120 centimeters high.

Now, I know it's a weird system, and if you hate maths, you'd probably rather be boiled alive than try this, but if you keep a calculator open, it's really quite easy. It's precise and you can make any object, in any app under the sun using units, inches whatever, and convert easily to poser.

I built my entire Room Creator system using this method and
I've had to make some pretty complex figures, building and exporting them piece by piece, so it definitely works. You can easily figure out what the calculation is for inches, if you prefer to use antique measuring systems.

mac PS the credit for the above method should go to ronstuff, as I figured it out based on his calculations. PPS This system also takes into account the distance factor. Just start with an object at world coordinates 0 0 0, then position the others at the correct respective distances. They'll all import to poser in the right positions.

Message edited on: 06/17/2004 14:39

Mac.. that math bit gave me instant headache just by reading about it L I am definately NOT a math person. I even wonder every time, when I've imported something to Max at 1000%, where I should put the decimal when exporting out again (in Max2Obj) - is it 0,001 or 0,0001 or 0,01 or... See, I'm not kidding, I just don't know :o(

LOL ernyoka. Sometimes I know how you feel. But it's pretty easy. You only have one calculation to make. From centimeters to units when you build an object. Then you export it, check it's maximum size in Properties and import it at that percentage.

For instance, if I want to build a table, I decide that the surface is 140 x 80 and the legs are 80cm high.

120 x 1.69 - 236.6
120 x 1.69 - 135.2

So I make my table surface 236.6 x 135.2 units, at a height of 135.2 and import the whole thing to poser at 236.6%

I mean, even a moron like me can do that.

mac

Message edited on: 06/17/2004 14:48

Sure.. whatever you say..."

Whatever DID you say? Message edited on: 06/17/2004 15:27

I never understood Reverse Polish Notation in Calculators either 8-O but I found out later that some people just THINK like that --- Backwards! LOL - but if it works for them... alrighty!

LOL, ron. But that's what I said. It does work for me. When I build anything, I always start from a real object and use it's measurements, so going from centimeters to units makes sense to me. Of course, if you want to build an alien craft, you may have problems with the occupants when you turn up with a tape measure. Lucky I build houses, innit? mac

Yup, that looks like a good system, but isn't there some problem with the pivot center? Like, if you have to reduce 20-odd body parts of a figure, do they all reduce and still match one another? And would it work for 3ds export? I've had it up to here with Habware and obj. Too many weird errors. I'm up for any new tricks if they work. mac

Of course they will all match! But that is ONLY if you use the World Origin 0,0,0 (Global... whatever it is called in your program) as the scale center point. You can export each part individually or all at once - so long as you use the same factor and the same origin, they will appear in Poser in EXACTLY the same relative position (provided that you do NOT use the "Scale" "Center" and "Place on Floor" options in the import dialog. Be sure that NOTHING is checked on that import panel and all should be fine. When you do that ALL data contained in the file - all relative dimensions and vertex positions and axis locations etc. are scaled proportionally and precisely by the same amount. In other words, think of it as scaling the entire UNIVERSE of the object rather than just the object itself or (God forgive) the parts themselves. Now the question is whether or not Poser respects the relative object axes that you have established - for example the axis of rotation for a door to open and close. In my experience, Poser has a tendency to reset object axes to their own center of gravity (center of bounding-box?) of each object as it is imported (I'm not absolutely positive about that though), so I don't bother any more setting rotation centers in my 3D app. I just bring in the model to Poser, select the parts and use the joint editor to position the center of rotation where I want it.

I'll give it a try, ron. You're right about poser setting it's own centers. It does that for everything you import, no matter what you set previously. Ah well, that's poser for you. Thanks for the info. mac

By the way, do you know that you can import a complex object such as a room with many moving doors and windows ALL AT THE SAME TIME rather than part by part? All you do is be sure in your modeling programs that each part is in a group that is assigned the name of the part as you would like it in Poser - for example door1, door2, floor, ceiling etc. Then export the whole thing as one object with a file name like "WholeHouse.obj". In Poser import your WholeHouse then using the grouping tool on it, Click the button "SPAWN PROPS". Delete the "WholeHouse" prop. You will have all of the individual parts right where they belong, properly named and all done with a couple of clicks. Makes importing lots of objects a real snap.

Here is another tip for model makers: NEVER allow your export plugin to do the Mesh Converting for your object. This is what leads to most problems that people encounter. In your modeling program you should be sure to convert each part manually to a MESH (editable mesh) - that way you can control the normals, and polygon distribution to suit the needs of your object rather than have a converter use some SINGLE conversion factor for the entire mesh. Then when you export be SURE that only the MESH objects you created are selected otherwise the converter will merge your mesh with any other surfaces that it has converted - duplicating everything and resulting in a BIG MESS.

Although I don't understand one bit of this discussion, there is critical information in here for my friend talisman018 who is modeling nice prop objects for me in Amapi5. She is of course having the scaling problem as well and I have to do some scaling and re-orientation of the objects she's made when I bring them into Poser. I've copied out some of this for her to read. Ron, does your explanation of some of these things above also apply to how Amapi 5 exports 3ds (no obj export in 5, still trying to get my hands on Amapi6 for her). I will direct her to this thread as well. Thanks guys! Liz

My explainations are UNIVERSAL because they will cover ANY application using ANY scale system - the PRINCIPLES are the same in all cases. All you need to know is the UNITS that the modeling application uses and the SCALING method it uses for enlarging/reducing and you can then derive (or I can provide) a SINGLE factor that will work with your setup and allow you to import with the highest precision into Poser with NOTHING checked on the import panel. For example here is an image that shows how I scale my object is 3DS MAX prior to exporting. NOTE that MAX uses a percentage system - all you do is right click on the "Uniform Scale" tool to get this dialog. DO NOT scale your object by dragging the scale tool - enter the value manually. In this case I am modeling in INCHES so my percent scale value is 1.25% - Note that in the scale tool I have the option to use the WORLD or the OBJECT coordinates, so I ONLY use the WORLD. Then in the Habware OBJ export I use a scale of 1.0 because my object is already at the proper size for Poser.

grrrr got bounced by those gremlins. so scale to poser units and world coord before export, and import into poser should if done correctly come in scaled and centered that right?

I do it all the time in Rhino, MAX, C4D and Truespace - its just a question of setting your document properties, grid scale and export scale properly. Bring it into poser with nothing checked on the import dialog, and it will be in exactly the same position and scale as it was in your modeling program relative to its global axis and global coordinate system.

oh great, the only modeling program not mentioned in the whole thread, lightwave, damn I'm the black sheep again. haha. It makes sence now, only thing as ernyoka1 said before I'm horrible at math. do you model at poser units or do you only do the scaling math when your exporting and just model at your true units? Rereading your post I think I get it, just need to try it a couple of times with lightwave and see. oh the joys of trying to create and import into poser, such fun.

Yes I build my complete model to scale in the 3D application usually using inches for small things and decimal feet or meters for very large buildings. The only time I worry about Poser is after I have finished the model and converted everything to mesh objects and am ready to export to Poser. I just do a "Select ALL Meshes" and scale the whole thing down using the global center (0,0,0) as the scale center. The factor will depend on what units I used to build with. If Inches (which it is most of the time) the factor in Rhino is 0.0104167 - if that is too much math for you, you can always copy/paste that number into a text document then copy/paste it back into the scale function when you need it. That is ALL there is to it. Each program and export system has only ONE factor that you need to know. Once you know that number for your setup you can forget everything else and enjoy your models in Poser.