Ok, I'm in the mood of bitching a bit, so... let's start! I feel disappointed by some general behaviour I've observed in the galleries, so I just felt like posting it here to see what's your feedback and impressions. There is a lot of good works that are almost ignored, most of them are good compositions and well done renderings, but... there is no nudity in them, and they receive very few hits and almost no comments/votes. Plenty of mediocre works, done just dropping a naked stock model in an improbable environment, in some exaggerated unreal pose, with dull stock lighting, absurde (or mannequin-ish) face expression, badly posed hands and anti-gravity hair (reclined heads with hair strands going parallel to the ground???)... and so on (the list of light glitches to evident gross errors is endless). These are the ones with a lot of hits and often very high rankings (OOHs, AAHs, WOWs and so on in the comments...) come on! Those are plain examples of mediocrity! Besides, there's plenty of ranking levels... be a bit more critic before clicking on 'excellent', that should be given to the most beautiful and amazing piece of art ever... Finally... some plain gross images, saying nothing more than 'hey look, she's got bOObz! What are you, folks? A bunch of Beavis & Butthead clones? I like nudity, I enjoy nudity. Male, female and even on child looking subjects (yeah i can hear you witch-hunters screaming 'there, there! Kill the pedo!) poor obtuse and narrow-minded... go visit St.Peter's Chapel in Vatican and count how many naked child looking angels are there... and that is supreme art, excellent work from art masters... Open your mind, and step aside from stereotypes! now if you don't mind... I'll go bury myself in my nuclear shelter and wait for your feedback :) Happy rendering!

pulls out the industrial strength flamethrower j/k I agree with you mostly heh heh heh heh he said boobz ;)

brings out popcorn and settles down

Actually, I fully agree to your statement! And I too find it interesting that my only "sexy" pic here also is the one that by far has recieved the largest amount of hits, and that none of the posters apparently has even noticed an error on that pic (I didn't see it at first too - or I would have corrected it - but I do now and it irks me)

I agree too..

All you seem to see is a bland vicky, standing around in some improbable place.. doing something quite random.. I always think... 'why is she there, what is she supposed to be doing... and why the hell is she doing it naked!' oh and of course the many 1000's of fantasy images with painted hair always strikes me as somewhat formulated and quite dull. But they do seem to get loads of hits and the standard 'Oooh wows' and massive comment list from the cliques..

Ah well.. i'll get over it.. hehe

Message edited on: 08/17/2004 05:01

I learned a long time ago that this isn't the place for serious critique. Everything, even the most obvious mediocrity, gets "Excellent" or nothing at all. It's like there isn't any other rating. This goes on in all the community galleries on this particular site, but seems more prevelant in the Poser-specific galleries. For example, one time I came upon an image that happened to be in the Poser gallery, and I noticed it had 5 or so comments before me, all high praise and the ubiquitous V at the end of each. Well, I noticed several problems with the pose and the render itself that could have been improved on, so I commented on it (perhaps bluntly, but certainly not rudely) and gave the image a rating of "Good" instead of the common "Excellent". WELL... you'd think I took out a gun and shot the poor chap, because suddenly my IM was filling up with hateful messages, and people telling me "HOW DARE YOU!" and "Let's see you do better" and "You must be blind to think that image is just 'good'." Blah blah blah. Must have been all the guy's posting buddies ganging up on me. lol Anyway, it's one of the reasons I never post my own work here, nor do I comment on an image in the galleries unless it's rather extraordinary. I'll stick to the forums. :-)

For some reason, some people prefer spending money on bondage props over spending time on learning the basics of composition, staging, or even three-point lighting. Know what? I gave up browsing the galleries a long time ago. I prefer flesh boobies over the pixel kind anyway :D

I can agree and disagree with these comments. (i'm a libra so i tend to look at things from several different perspectives before drawing a conclusion. its my nature). First off, what is and is not 'art' is very much a matter of opinion. What you find beautiful I may find ugly or offensive. Or just plain dull. Also, a lot of people have different tastes as far as what genre of art they like. For example, its extremely rare that I like anything that deals with the 1920's to the 1960's or 70's. Images that depict scenes from those time periods just don't appeal to me. Once in a while I might see something that I like but its rare. Doesn't mean its not art. Nudity will attract attention 9 times out of 10. That's a simple fact. Pornography is the #1 selling media in the world, and probably always will be, regardless of how many critics and prudes there are out there (and most of the time the same people that preach about how wrong it is are the same ones that have the biggest collection stashed somewhere under their beds or in their closets). Of course not all nudity is pornography but all pornography is nudity. (at least as far as the general concept of what pornography is... but if you're someone like robert smith for example, who thinks pornography is a disgustingly obese woman (or man) gorging themselves on a box of twinkies, then...). People like seeing naked people, especially in the U.S. Excluding mid-eastern countries, and maybe china, the u.s. is the worst when it comes to sensorship. "can't let our kids see naked people! It'll scar them for life!" so they grow up thinking nudity is wrong and they teach their kids the same thing and it goes on and on. First time I ever went to London I saw a billboard on the side of a bus with a woman lifting her shirt, showing the world all she's got. It was a beer ad, if I remember correctly. It's all over europe, and sometimes in canada, but you'd never see it in the states. Not out in public anyway. Over there they don't really care about nudity. At least not nearly as much. You see it all the time and no one thinks anything of it. Yet why do you think the company used a nude woman in their ad? Then there's the concept of what message, if any, the 'artist' is trying to convey in his/her nude portrait. I personally use, or try to use, a lot of symbolism in my work. I only have two pieces in my gallery so far, (course I've also only been a member of renderosity for a lil over a week now, so...), both of them use a generic naked poser model. But neither of them really have anything to do with nudity. Its all about the message. As for fantasy and sci-fi work, i agree there's a ton of it out there, on this site and countless others. For some reason its proly up in the top rankings of digital imagery these days. That doesn't mean half or most of it isn't crap, or poorly done. It usually is. I for one am a fan of GOOD fantasy and/or dark, sometimes disturbing images. I do some of my own. Most all my work has some sort of supernatural/fantasy-like undertones. Its more creative than every day life, at least to me. Still doesn't mean that most of what I see is any good, in my opinion. But someone else might see the same image and think its fantastic. Errors in images are sometimes deliberate. Depending again on what the creator is trying to convey. Other times it gives the work character. And other times it just screws the whole thing up. Lighting and shadowing is an extremely difficult element to reproduce correctly, for anyone regardless of experience level. (i doubt there are any masters of light rendering out there, and for those who think they are one, there's always going to be someone else to come along and say its not right). Don't get me wrong though, I totally agree that there are some elements of people's work that are just blatantly bad and make it obvious that the creator didn't care enough to take the time and correct them, or at least try to correct them, before posting the image. That is irritating, especially in cases like the ones you mentioned. And its just as irritating when you find other work that is excedingly better by leaps and bounds and no one seems to care, cause its not showing any "interesting flesh". One thing that really irritates me is the fathoms of images out there depicting women in various states of undress, regardless of the genre (from 1920's new york to the deepest underbelly of middle earth). Not that I don't find women attractive, or the work exceptionally well done, but.. just yesterday I was browsing through an artist's gallery on his personal web site. I don't know how many pages there were - tons - and proly 99% of them were all women. Excedingly well-done, at least in my opinion. But there were no men, doing anything. There were a couple of male creatures, orcs, beasts, etc, but no men. Why? There's no question the artist couldn't do them just as well as he'd done the others. He just chose not to. Obviously because the male physique doesn't appeal to him as a person, but shouldn't those lines of bias dissolve in the mind of an artist? Generally speaking artists are some of the most open-minded people in the world. Until it comes to seeing or creating images of men. Put two or more women in a render, lying next to each other in various states of undress (not to mention what they might be doing), throw it up in a gallery and you'll get so many hits you might exceed bandwidth. But make it two men and all you'll get is flames. (no pun intended). Okay. I'm done with my rant. stepping down from my soap box now

wow, didn't realize that was such a long reply... sorry...

Yeah and then you add to it. Whoh! There is no such thing as a fair art critique. Art is taste and taste is a preference. Some people wouldn't know art if they were hit by a Pollock style baseball bat, but that's OK. Have a look at the people leaving comments on your work and then check whether they have ever posted anything to Rosity...that's right... No. I always keep in the back of my mind, do I want to get votes or do I want to create art. I create what I feel and I don't give a damn if anyone likes it or not.

Its good to get (and give) positive feedback. There's nothing wrong with being told that people appreciate your work. I KNOW that some of the stuff I've done in the past has been patchy in quality though. I have a bad habit of rushing to finish a piece. Thats why I'm so happy to have had an extensive comment on my latest image that actually criticises on several points and offers suggestions for improvement. (Many thanks to mmitchell houston for pointing out a few things that I should have noticed myself.) Its pretty hard to improve if nobody points out where you are going wrong yet few people seem to offer constructive criticism, probably for fear of the sort of reaction that maxxxmodelz describes. I'm not saying stop with the Oohs and Aahs. A pat on the back is always appreciated. But if there is anything about an image that strikes the viewer as 'off' in anyway, I'm sure there are a lot of artists in this community who, like me, would appreciate the critique as much as they appreciate the praise. After all, if you get to the stage of believing that you are as good as all the comments say, where is the incentive to improve?

Images with nudity may get many hits but no more comments than other images. It's the friends/ebots system that controls the amount of comments and votes an image gets. I've seen lots of pretty good, but far from perfect images, that were nonetheless buried under huge heaps of praises. Non regarding any flaws that these images may have. And I saw very good works here, that gathered only few comments. If someone is on many people's favorite artists list, he'll get lots of comments within minutes after uploading an image. Who's not will get only the comments by accidential viewers.

"There is no such thing as a fair art critique."

Yes, there can be. If something is posted under "realism", and the work is clearly short of that categorization for whatever reason (obviously because it doesn't look realistic), then one can fairly critique the work based on why it's not what it claims to be.

Once you categorize your art, like almost ALL images submitted to this and other galleries like it, then fair criticism can be made on it, because it's been predisposed by the artist as a certain type, and not left to the viewer's discretion.

Message edited on: 08/17/2004 07:00

I agree. in a way i also think that those of us (myself included) who don't critique the work, are as much a part of the problem as those who only "oooh" and "ahhh". Just a suggestion, if you (anyone) choose to critique, start with a positive, alternate between positive and negative aspects of the work and end with a postitive. Try to avoid just saying that something is good or bad, elaborate on why it looks good or bad. You'll never avoid all the hate mail.

I also have to agree. I don't look in the galleries very much anymore because I know that I'm not going to see a lot of quality. To be sure, it does exist; but it gets hard to find. I am not claiming to have any of my work as quality though. I probably should only post in the beginner's forum as my skill is next to nil.

I don't have a problem with an artist that only uses female's in their "art". I don't use males myself as I don't particularly like looking at them as much. That doesn't mean that I use females only because of boobz. Wait, maybe I do ;-) Seriously, it's an artists choice; my request is make your choice art and not cookie-cutter.

I myself would love to have both negative and positive comments if they are helpful. I don't particularly want to read a comment that says my work sucks; I already know that! I want to hear how to make it less sucky. One can't really improve without helpful critisism. Then again, maybe they don't really want to improve. This has been a sore point of mine for a while, and the reason I left the community for over a year. I see it hasn't changed much, but I don't think I'm going anywhere for a while.

I want to find a good place to post my art work where it will get a good critique. So far, I've been very lucky. I've had my artwork critiqued fairly well on this site. As a matter of fact, I got a good critique from highcrow yesterday and it allowed me to delete the image I posted and repost it with a correction. The image looks a million times better now. Some people do critique nicely. The problem I see is that if you aren't in the right "clique", your stuff hardly ever gets viewed. Sometimes this place feels like being in high school and trying to get in to the IN crowd. Kristta

the last two times i posted honest critiques, one on lighting, another on touching up elbow joints, i was accused of being a "troll". so,i've quit commenting, altogether. in fact, i've pretty much given up on the poser gallery. once, i could browse it and see the works of artists who inspired me. they've since either left the site, or mainly lurk. naked vicki's in similar poses, lighting, and temples just don't do it for me. i've basically put down poser, except to just "play" now and then. i see some inspiring art sites out there, but they frown on poser. actually, sometimes, i feel embarrassed at what our poser gallery has turned into.

I do not make nude images (only one for a contest). Although I seen real bad images get "excellent" make it to the top. I do not bother uploading images into the gallery anymore (not even on anyones favorite artists), and I noticed a huge amount of nudity. Even on the thumbs and no red tags "Nudity", or a nude thumb and "Nudity" Tag. Sometimes my 6 son comes running to ask me a question, or help on something, gets hurt (crying), or "Dad..come and see me do this on the spiderman game." and finds me looking in the gallery and see's what I am looking at. I feel guilty or sinfull looking in the gallery. So, I do not bother anymore. I only look in the forum, freebies, marketplace, Renderosity front page (News), and purchases. I know I would not make artist of the month, so. No loss to me. I am on other projects in poser.

I agree with stemardue...I don't look at the Poser gallery anymore..however it seems like the "stock" nude Vicki has made her way into other galleries now as well.....Oh well...till this topic comes up again ;)

HI Poppi :) yup- me too

yup stemardue
dead on :)

eye candy or story telling
I see most ppl trying story telling with the images, most are a single image out of context.
The idea is there- but the skills and context needed to make a 'good' picture isn't.

Plus- books like "The art of Michael Whelan" are the only art infulance in many ppls lifes sence grade school. Me- I just make eye candy

Message edited on: 08/17/2004 09:44

Unless someone specifically asks for criticism and suggestions to improve the picture, I don't offer any, cos no matter how politely you phrase your helpful comment you get a nasty reply sometimes and who needs this. If I don't find the render particularly good or original I simply don't comment. I will however comment if I feel a particular person has improved dramatically over a period of time. Otherwise originality is what grabs me. As for my stuff, I post because I feel like it, if I get comments great, constructive criticism even better. I don't need ooohs! and aaahs!

The ooohs and aaahs can encourage people to do more and better renders.

"The ooohs and aaahs can encourage people to do more and better renders."

More? Yes. Better? No. Message edited on: 08/17/2004 10:04

The ooohs and aaahs can encourage people to do more and better renders. I agree with maxxxmodelz. Ooohing and aaahing over an image gives the artist the impression that he/she is doing everything "right" and doesn't encourage growth. A piece of carefully worded constructive criticism helps an artist do better renders. Let's say you posted an image of the first hair that you postworked. Which comment would help you more? "Wow ... that hair is FANTASTIC!!! Man, u rule!" or "God, that hair totally sucks! You better not quit your day job." or "You mentioned that this was your first try at hair postwork ... you are off to a very good start, but it might help improve the image if you vary the colors a bit more. Try building the colors up in layers and blend them in by adjusting the opacity of each layer." What do you think?

The only thing that disappoints me is that several really mediocre works get an "excellent" from he first visitor. I sometimes think it must be the artist himself, logging in under a different name... Otoh, the same happens when well-known vendors praise eachother's new upload as superhyper and can't live without. ehhh... Pornography? No high-end culture, be it Egyptian, Indian or Greek knew it, and nowhere it is more popular (and a selling product) than in a society where nudity is shameful, and sex is something you publicly deny. Otoh, I prefer to look at the positive side, and that is that I did discover several really very good artists here at R., some of whom are not even that well known. A good trick to discover a goldmine-gallery is to go to the artists pages of people you like, and try out their favourite artists and images. This said: R. is a site for the masses (the more dear valued customers the merrier)and that means, inevitably, that those who make most noise (the moral minority) get it their way.

I think your last comment is the appropiate one....Deecy

Message edited on: 08/17/2004 10:23

The crit that would help more would be: in my opinion, you need to make the hair better as it is not yet on the same level as (this and that) which I consider to be the strong points of your work. Be honest, start with what needs work and END with what's positive.

Would comments like that get "flamed" though? Sometimes it's hard to tell ... and that is why a lot of people are afraid to add constructive criticism. However, if worded carefully it can go a long way!

Message edited on: 08/17/2004 10:27

Aeneas ... you might be right on ending with the positives ... but by the same token, if you tell the artist that he/she needs to make the hair better, an example of what you think is "better" is helpful as well. So, you give a brief helpful tip, such as "add the color in layers."

Unfortunately there's a little of Beevis and Butthead in all of us. I'd like to see more quality work as well. But you must remember we are dealing with all different levels here, both in age, maturity and talent.

When I have the energy-- kinda low lately--I'll give gentle suggestions on what might be improved. I know how it felt to put something up for others to see and get abuse or nothing in return. I'd rather comment on something that is right about the render than something that is wrong. It's not world poverty, after all. As for the grades, I'll only downgrade from an excellent if the render is sheer crap. I supose I would rather encourage posting when I know the more you do the more you improve. Wagging boobies in my face, however, are clicked off the screen as fast as they appear-- so juvenile. And not at all erotic. Emily

So much complaining about lacking quality in the galleries and at the same time many say, they don't even look at the galleries! That's illogical. I look as often, as I have time. And I find quality. BTW, what is wrong with some beautiful pin-ups? If they are good work, I look at them rather than at always the same stereotype renders of victoria in flowing robes.

As for the grades, I'll only downgrade from an excellent if the render is sheer crap

This got me thinking ... it would probably be a nightmare to code, but a better (and fairer) rating system would be multi-level ... and would give people an idea of where they need improvement. A scale of 1 to 10 on originality, subject matter, composition, light and shadows, posing (if Poser), texturing, postwork, etc.

Message edited on: 08/17/2004 10:52

Problem is that "we" agree with you and the people that you're complaining about aren't here! Hey, where can I get one of those industrial strength flame throwers?

I'm guilty of one nude pic. It's a nude David. I just can't stand the nude girl pictures. It feels like the place is filled with teenage boys on sexual overdrive. My image is clearly marked as containing nudity. Maybe we should start a thread and list our names and that way we can go to those people's galleries and know that this person wants critique and that the person's gallery is well marked with "nudity" tags. It's an idea.

I am a fantasy artist. I love the genre. I've learned two most important things from my favorite artist, Frank Frazetta. One, the importance of lighting and, two, to have each image tell a story. I appreciate the ooohs and aaahs I may receive in the comments but even more I appreciate it when someone says, "ooh, I like this because...". On one of my images, Getting Down to Business, I received quite a few comments that told me why they liked the image and I found myself saying, yes, exactly, that's what I was trying to convey. On another image, Lestat, Louis and Claudia, I asked for comments to help me improve the image. After working on it for quite some time I knew improvements were needed but I couldn't see where they were anymore. I did get the helpful comments I needed to make the improvements and was glad I had asked. I've been fortunate not to have any trolling type comments on my work, even the fairies and elves I enjoy doing. And I do pin-ups from time to time because I find them relaxing when I am stuck on something else I may be working on. I've only done one nude for a contest elsewhere but I have to admit that with fantasy images most of my women are scantily clad. That's why they're fantasy. And I do use men in some images although they're usually dressed to the hilt or armored. I may just have to try a scantily clad gent some time. Heheh. And I remember back when I first started in Poser that a lot of postwork was a no-no. The idea then was to do it all in Poser. Somehow that has stuck with me. Yes, every now and then I do a little hair painting but that's usually done to enhance what I already have. And I do the usual touchups to bends and bad shadows but for the most part everything is done in Poser to the best it can be. I find myself losing interest when I see an image where hair is the focal point. It's great for those who do it well but what's the image about? And, yes, it is a shame so many good artists go unnoticed and all I can say to that is just keep doing what you love to do. Be the best you can be and enjoy it. I do my art for me and if it gets noticed, that's great. If not, I'm already on to working on the next image. Good thread, everyone!

I have no problem with a good pin-up, I have seen some sensational ones in the galleries. I even consider it an artform. But the repetitious Vickies with the pinched nose, puckered lips and brain dead stare, not to mention skimpy string something outfit, sword etc....warriorress, priestess whatever that has me bored out of my skull :-)...but then once in a while a fantastic fantasy render of the exact same subject! The thing is everyone wants to do something creative, that's human nature, some will do it better than others, will work at it more and will just have a better eye for it. That does'nt mean that we should stop less talented people from expressing themselves because anyone can get better at it.

I think a lot of it stems from the fact that a lot of us are just starting out in this field, some will gradually progress and get better as they work more and more on things, while others who don't put a lot of time and effort into it will stay where they are. I know it took me a while to finally get enough nerve to post my "doodles" I'm a total noob, still am and not ashamed to admit it, but there are a lot of people out there who like me got the nerve to post something and it would kill them to get a bad comment. No body likes to do that and especially in the art field, artists have tender souls :) And a lot of people don't have the heart to leave anything remotely constructive, so they opt for the easy out and say "Excellent" but then they might also think the post is "excellent" in their eyes too. Personally, I would like for someone to comment on things that I might have over looked, but yes I'm scared poop-less that my stuff would get ripped to shreds and to some they'll never post their art again. So maybe those who post Excellent just don't want to offend the artist. Now, getting flamed for posting a "Good" or even making comments about the pose being off etc, I don't understand that, some people need to grow up I suppose. Like I mentioned above I encourage feedback because I'm a noob and I'm always forgetting something, like lighting! I think Renderosity should take away the Excellent, fair, good bad ugly and just make it comments only. If the artist doesn't want it rated, then I think they can mark it as such when they upload the image, but if you mark the rating system for that picture, people should grow up and expect there might be a Poor or good or whatever. Another thing is people sometimes feel as if they have to add an excellent or whatever onto other peoples art when that person has left a comment of such on their site. I think just plain comments should be it and get rid of the rating system. Yes there are some really excellent art out there, but use the english system and write down why you think it's excellent instead of just picking something from a list. I've been doing this Poser art since June of this year and while looking around for items and spending entirely too much money...I have noticed during my trips how much nudity is out there. I think I've discovered why there seems to be so much out there, it's a pita to get the figures dressed and if the guys looked half as good as the women, there would be more males running around in their b-day suits. There are some classic nudes, look at the Greek statues and the old paintings, when a nude is done tastefully regardless of the environment it's in I don't have a problem with it. What gets me is the visions some people have of making women that should in reality fall over every time they stand up or be doubled over like 100 year old women because their skinny backs have rotting discs from supporting all that boob weight. We can thank comic books for starting that I think, their concept of a female hero in real life just wouldn't be able to get out of a chair, yet alone beat up the villians. But then art is in the eye of the beholder, what we might consider as foul, others would see it as wonderful, they probably see our art as bland compared to theirs, so it's nice to be in a society where we can have such choices I suppose. During my surfing for Poser stuff I came across a posting form a person in China and he couldn't post anything sexual in content as it was against the law to do so. Kind of makes me glad I'm where I'm at regardless of the poopy art I have to sift thru. My father has a saying, opinions are like butts[he uses a different word that means butt, I think you know which one], everyone has one. I think if I marked that people can make comments and rank my art I should expect there to be honest opinions there and not fake. How else am I going to improve or learn better techniques if I'm thinking I'm doing it right all the time when in fact I'm not. But then I would like the comments to be truthful and not mean, constructive and not distructive. There are many ways you can say a pose is wrong or lighting is bad. Sometimes people just don't think I reckon. I even make comments on my own stuff pointing out areas that I think I pooched. At the same time me being a noob, I don't feel as if I'm expert enough to make comments on work other than what I like about a composite. Sex sells, it's a proven fact and I think the reason why nudes get more hits than others is I think we're all perverts in one way or another :). Sometimes the best way to show off a figure is simply by leaving it nude. It's a two edge sword either way you look at it. No one is ever going to please everybody. But I think not by looking at the galleries and not making comments you might miss out on helping new people. If you don't look at some or all of the galleries at least give the Beginner gallery a shot. Some of us out there would like to get some positive feed back, constructive comments. I think what the galleries need, is less ignoring and more constructive feedback as like weeds in the yard if they're not kept trimmed, they'll take over. If someone sends you hate mail, check out their work and leave comments on their site too :) I've probably ranted further than sephyn74 and probably repeated myself too. Not to mention I probably went off the topic here and there. But I'm a noob. Noob not boob...heh

" So much complaining about lacking quality in the galleries and at the same time many say, they don't even look at the galleries! That's illogical. I look as often, as I have time. And I find quality. " I'll only look at the galleries of people who post in the forums if I'm so inclined. Rarely, if ever, do I go to the "actual" galleries area of the site and browse around. That's not illogical, it's logical selection. "As for the grades, I'll only downgrade from an excellent if the render is sheer crap. I supose I would rather encourage posting when I know the more you do the more you improve." That's like saying the "great" and "good" rankings are useless and shouldn't even be there. I'm not sure when it happened, but somewhere along the line the words 'great' and 'good' somehow turned into 'poor' and 'bad'. Someone isn't going to improve themselves just by continuously rendering the same mistakes over and over. They won't improve until someone shows them how, or they're given the incentive to do it themselves. I think making someone believe they're producing outstanding work when clearly they're not is harmful to an artist. Reason being, if they're constantly sugar-coated with warm and fuzzy comments on their work, they might eventually start believing it, and then later when someone comes along and sets them straight (in a not-so-pleasant way), it will either screw them all up in the head, or they'll wind up looking like an idiot arguing about it. ;-P

When I posted an image recently, I openly asked for critique. I got it. All of it was offered in a mature and helpful manner. I agreed with most of the comments. They helped me to see the images as others did. So did fixing my monitor, grrrr. :-) Really, if you want helpful critique, just ask for it in the comments area when you post your image. If you're looking for opinions on specific areas, be they posing, lighting, compo, whatever, go ahead and specify. Trust me, it's very likely that you'll get the feedback you're looking for. As regards commenting on other images, I suggest trying to say something more substantial than "oh, wow, this is great honey, kisses and hugz! bye bye!" Chances are people will appreciate it. If you get nasty IMs or are called a "troll" for offering honest comments intended to help, then the heck with 'em. The bad apples don't spoil the whole bunch. If you're sick of NVITWAS, don't view those images. I've got to say, though, even though that sort of image is the most tired cliche of Poser-rendered art, some people are truly good at it. I can at least admire their technical proficiency even if they don't score points for originality. Doing cheescake images truly helped me to learn Poser and develop better rendering skills. I don't take those images too seriously, but I'm not embarassed that I made them. I find myself tempted to do the same simple, meaningless, but fun images again, now that I'm hitting the Poser 5 learning curve. I learned a lot about playing with lighting nodes last night by illuminating Naked Vicky. Next maybe I'll try to create my own metal procedurals for her sword. :-)

Wow, I'm going to have to go look at the some of the stuff in the galleries now... I'm not really sure what to add. Maybe my background as a musician has better equipped me to handle criticism and to sift out and ignore the useless comments. Why anyone would get upset over some random stranger saying "d00d ur piccture sukx, more bewbs next time thx" is just beyond me. (You can substitute any sort of troll comment there, I just like poking fun at certain online stereotypes :P ) I don't understand why it seems to be necessary to sugar coat honest, well intentioned critique. One shouldn't be villainized just for having taken the time to offer advice for improvement. It seems to me that the galleries here are intended to be a way to display your work, and more importantly, get insight on how you can improve. Doesn't the comment form solicit helpful comments on how the image could be improved? If you're not interested in receiving those comments, or if you can't handle how other people communicate, maybe you'd be better off with your own website where you can showcase your work and not give anyone the ability to comment. In any case, when I finally get around to posting something, I would absolutely LOVE for people to take the time to look and offer suggestions. Hey, it's a lot cheaper than school tuition, right? ;)

Then there's the concept of what message, if any, the 'artist' is trying to convey in his/her nude portrait "If any" being the key phrase. :)

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Why do the Daz galleries count, then, mayhem? Actually, I disagree with the trend of this thread that bad pictures get lots of ooh-aah comments because they have nudity. As a test, I invite you to post a nude picture and see how many ooh-aah comments you get. I put it to you that the situation is rather as follows: there are some individuals who have organised their own claques to post favourable comments and vote them into the top twenty (or whatever it's called). These individuals tend to be male adolescents, and so, incidentally, their topic tends to be nude female stereotypes. As supporting evidence I remind you of the insulting IMs received by maxxxmodelz - we not dealing here with people who are exactly mature.

Two of my images were accepted into DAZ's July Gallery and I have to admit I was thrilled. I've submitted quite a bit of work over the last two years and it felt like an accomplishment when they were accepted. I know DAZ isn't the end all and be all but it just felt good, like winning or placing in a contest. Plus I couldn't figure out where the vouchers in my account came from until one day I was browsing through the gallery and saw my work. Light bulb went on! One of them was the one I mentioned above, Getting Down to Business, and I feel it has been one of my best works. And it also made it into the Hot 20 for the one reason that people liked it.

I have to agree with xoconostle on two points. One, when it comes to asking for comments being specific helps. There are lots of great people out there willing to share what they know and do it in a kindly way. And two, pin-ups helped me learn a lot about lighting and posing. Not nude or vacantly staring off somewhere pin-ups, but sensual and a bit sexy too. Sometimes a little clothing goes a long way.

Message edited on: 08/17/2004 12:37

I have been a member here for over 3 years. Only recently have I started posting my own work, and commenting on others. I find most of the work in the top 20 to be excellent pieces of art. Also, with such growth over the last year or so for this site, you are going to have all kinds of different skill levels posting. I welcome all kinds of comments for my stuff, good or bad. They help me to improve. Most of my stuff is of the Pin-up variety, but that is what I love to do. I create my art for myself!! Also, some other post stated that Pin-up art really didn't take talent and so forth.. I do not agree with that. You can see in my Gallery that a lot of work goes into my images.... Just my thoughts on this topic.

As a person who started using Poser for the sole purpose of rendering nekkid chicks and buying bondage props, I'd like to say that some folks don't upload an image thinking 300 years from now it will sit in some gallery next to a Rembrandt. There are a number of us who just enjoy making visual renderings just simply for the fun of it. I have the highest respect for those who do put a lot of time and effort into elevating their craft. But not everyone takes up Poser for that purpose. It's the same kind of thing as when modelers put down Poser users because they use 'pre-fabricated' models. Different strokes for different folks. (Hey Beavis, he said 'strokes'). And if I was truly pushing my craft and skills why should it matter how many "Attaboy" comments I get or what my average ratings are compared to others? What's needed for artists trying to better their craft is a "work-in-progress" gallery where real, quality feedback is given. I view the galleries often to see some awesome work that will inspire me to better my own skills. But I can also appreciate the "for the hell of it" Poser artists who put up a render of an untextured Judy in default pose - the 'artist' just happy to be part of something. Fin

As a test, I invite you to post a nude picture and see how many ooh-aah comments you get. Back when I used to have a gallery here, my images were, for the most part, amusing little things that didnt get many hits, which was fine with me -- they were no more than just fun little sketches. One day, just for the hell of it, I posted an image that, in thumbnail, was clearly a naked woman in silhouette against some semi-open Venetian blinds. Click on it, and instead of the girl, there's the image of her outraged father, getting ready to do a tap dance on your face. It got five times the number of hits in a 24-hour period than most of my images got in weeks. And you'd be surprised (well, maybe not, actually) how offended some people were at being shortchanged like that. :)

I do a lot of different things including nudes (both male and female) and pinups and usually get a decent number of comments on them. But right now the image of mine that has the most comments is a unicorn. :-)

No i dont flame you!I simply agree with your opionion Stemardue.

That's funny SeanMartin, very clever of you. Get them where they live ;) I'd like to see the images (the thumbnail and the father) do you still have them posted anywhere?

Well, my first post was lost in the R'sity post gremlins. Let's see if this one makes it, you'll be happy to know, this one is very small to the first attempt. We're not worthy, we're not worthy. A Waynes World momment. I can't say the real thought that crossed my mind, I might get into trouble, let's just say, Frank Zappa, Philmore East. LoL, SeanMartin, too funny. So why do you look in the gallery if it bothers you so much?