I see the term NVITWS used in posts - what does it mean ?

Naked Vicki in a Temple With a Sword, a particularly overdone style of fantasy picture around here. ;-) bonni

Hehe, okies, I got one now that has stumped me from the get go, and being here 'forever' I should know by now..but I dont..IIRC

I know AFAIK, LMAO, ROTFLMAO, AFAIC, IMHO,NVITWS,IOW, but the IIRC ..not a clue ~lol~

Message edited on: 08/21/2004 16:44

IIRC means "if I recall correctly." At least, I believe it does... if I recall correctly ;)

add in SIBG from the chat room I was in for a long time ;) Standard Issue Big Gun (5 points if you name the movie ;))

Aliens II ??

I'm sorry... would you like to play again? ;)

Well it seems like the NVITWS is always in a battle with the Pernicious Prudes trying to make her an endangered species. Probably why some have struggled to keep her around. You can check out some of the fight to survive at: http://argon.glittzzzy.topcities.com/web/pan/prudes.htm

5 points if you name the movie Men In Black?

** Well it seems like the NVITWS is always in a battle with the Pernicious Prudes trying to make her an endangered species** ~Rolls eyes~

nope not MiB ;) a clue if you want tho....?

This movie has THE standard issue big gun?

Was it Predator? Jack

Ghost in the Shell.

Man, am I waiting for the sequel.

I don't dislike Naked Vicki in a Temple with a Sword because I'm a prude (I have a gallery at Renderotica, I think pretty much precluded prudity, eh?). I dislike NVIATWAS because she's always got a blank expression, she's woodenly posed, and generally NVIATWAS pictures are boring as hell! ;-) bonni

5 points to Bjergtrold!

Well it depends on what you do with NVIATWAS, a lot of times when ppl 1st get Poser that's what they do with it to start off and those can get fairly boring. But I did see a lot of higher quality NVIATWAS in Fergusons and Mist Dragon's Fantasy contests, plus a bunch in mutedbanshee's FCC contest and those are worth preserving. The Battle of the NVIATWAS and the Prudes was a light hearted attempt to poke fun at those that accused Render of being nothing but a CG Porn site, a few artists figured it would make the point better that way. If you wanted to check out the comic book I made of them it's at: http://www.cafepress.com/argonlogo.11168964

Naked Vicky... LoL

I'd be so immensely happy if the anti-prude patrol managed to at least differentiate badly rendered cheesecake from genuine, talented art before they demanded that their coughcoughcough "art" be taken seriously. Most feeble renderings of nekkid vickies by the defenders of nudity fall in the former category I am afraid - it's sort of like " I have no talent, and here is a badly rendered nude to prove it" Of course, if you critique any said renderings, that's a ToS violation and will get your gallery trolled. The sites who knock rendo as a CG pr0n site, tend to be sites where they manage to depict women with clothes, and sexy as hell - please also note I am not knocking genuine, hardworking Poser-talent like Toxic Angel, ArchAngel Gabriel, Hiram, Beton, SkoolDaze, etc, but the buy, pose, click, render crowd. Nekkid Vickie inna Temple with a sword became a standard renderosity phrase in late 2001 or early 2002, can't remember; the phrase became popular with the pink pony debacle. Pink Pony debacle? I hear the newbie scream: The illustrious Doc Legume had a series of a pink p4 horse rendered in various, bright surroundings. The pony made friends, as did the pony's friends. Since the renderings were of the same quality as the already then generic naked vickie in a temple with a sword, a big, sitewide debate happened, and it ended with the good doc legume leaving - after he was nominated artist of the year, was about to win, and for a mysterious reason the nominations all of a sudden had a different process, and he lost. Also - it's usually the behemoths of outstanding artistic merit who call the anti-vickies for prudes. It must be that wide range of inspiration they have that makes dilettantes like me not "get" the nude vickie's various depictions. Jumpy - How's the max coming along ? ~S

Well isn't that the point that prudes don't make any distinctions? They only want to force their opinions on ppl about what offends them and don't differentiate on whether a pic is badly rendered or not. An image can have artistic merit when it has clothes and when it doesn't and nude or clothed pics can also be badly rendered. It's not mutally exclusive. Debating whether or not an image has artistic merit has little to do with being a prude since any pic that offends their morals will set them off to stop others from looking at it. You can do a lot with a NVIATWAS, if you put the effort into the composition, lighting and other elements to make it worthwhile. Most of the bad rep NVIATWAS gets is from lack of effort put into the image, that can happened with any other pic even with clothes and other settings besides temples.

I don't see you making any educamacated distinctions here either, sunshine. If someone is opposed to nudity, they are opposed to nudity in general, and not a naked woman in a temple specifically. I am dead against nekkid vickies because most of them, if you pardon the pun, blow goats - most of it is lack of imagination and to see how far you can push the ToS. Its just bad art. And its amazing how often bad imagery and nudity go hand in hand here. Does it make me a prude ? Probably as much as working in a tittie bar and a short stint as a dom when I was studying way back in the dark ages. But then I am from Europe, and Scandinavian to boot, we really only wear clothes for special occasions, and in order to take them off for some Swedish...documentary type film ];-) As an aside, it pisses me off on a generic, non-personal level that people at rendo who have an issue with nekkidness need to come with qualifiers or disclaimers - that should not be necessarry. It would also be a topic worth considering that it's fairly disturbing that the most generic context one sees in depicting females is naked. Bad renders happen with clothes. I cant argue that. But at least throwing something on the poor lass shows at least a smidgeon of imagination. ~S

Look again, I mentioned 4 different types of images, and you only mentioned 2 those you like and those you don't not much of a distinction is it? Maybe some examples would help. http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=610868&Start=55&Artist=svdl&ByArtist=Yes http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=744729&Start=1&Artist=enigma%2Dman&ByArtist=Yes Both of those have nudity but which is the higher quality image? If you ask me it's the NVIATWAS http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=740122&Start=1&Artist=enigma%2Dman&ByArtist=Yes http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=741956&Start=1&Artist=chrislenn&ByArtist=Yes Both of those have clothes but 1 looks to me like more effort was put into it. So automatically stating that NVIATWAS is inferior is a bit shortsighted when each image should be judged on it's on merits and not a sterotype because it's been done before. If that was the case then hardly any themes would be left because practically everything has been done before. It's the way it's done that makes the difference, how about differentiating between that?

I keep forgetting the extreme focus some of the more talented of us seem to suffer. I am not going to deconstruct any of the imagery shown - we have very differing opinions on the merit of them. Lets leave it at that - I can clearly see I am out of my league when served with such solid, persuasive, intelligent and objective arguments like the ones above, mingled with those fantastic depictions of the female form. ~S

I'm just laughing, because I can imagine someone with little/no artistic talent that ONLY does NVITWS renderings. You can probably buy textures and stuff for that... heh.

No, really (oO) ???? ;-) ~S

Unfortunately there probably are but hopefully if they do enough of them they'll eventually grow to do them as well as they can. If you do anything long enough you eventually get good at it since practice makes perfect. Usually tho they most likely try other themes

Heya Spinner ;) Been working a bit more with Max..not so good right now tho, as pulling 10-12 hrs shifts at work is wearing me out..leaving little time for practice. However, I now have taken a week leave and can take some time with it, and get some much needed rest too. Thanks for remembering ;) Haven't see ya posting alot..been busy? If ya get time, come visit us rabble-rousers over at Cheryls place ;)

Glad someone defined IIRC. I could never quite get that one myself... ShadowWind

Hayat ta'awila ila semac.

IOW = Isle of Wight (off the south coast of England).

I am dead against nekkid vickies because most of them, if you pardon the pun, blow goats...

That seems a bit intolerant. Wouldn't it make more sense to be against nekkid vickies that blow goats then, and not nekkid vickies in general?

Since the site TOS does not allow beastiality images, how can you tell which nekkid vickies blow goats anyway? Have you seen so many nekkid vickies blowing goats that you've discovered a tell-tale sign? And what are you doing watching nekkid vickies blowing goats anyway...that sounds pretty gross to me! ;)

Blah...

I like doing NVITWS, heck half of my gallery are NVIATWS, NSIATWS, NMIATWS, N(Dragon)IATWS and recently NGIATWS, but I refuse to do a NVTBG (Nekkid Vickies that Blow Goats). I think that's against TOS. ;oP

Now wait a minute! I know for a fact that spinner isn't totally against nudes - she likes some of mine and I have even done a PNVIPTWS(partly naked vickie in a possible temple with a sword) - please don't hurt me spinner. In fact I did a semi-=nude once just for spinner! Blatant link to a naked picture - no temple, no sword. However I think the issue isn't the nudity per sec, but the lack of imagination and time that goes into so many of them.

But the point was that not all NVIATWAS are created equal, they vary greatly in quality and imagination. As I pointed out already: So automatically stating that NVIATWAS is inferior is a bit shortsighted when each image should be judged on it's own merits and not a stereotype because it's been done before. If that was the case then hardly any themes would be left because practically everything has been done before. It's the way it's done that makes the difference, how about differentiating between that? It looked like spinner agreed since he said: I can clearly see I am out of my league when served with such solid, persuasive, intelligent and objective arguments like the ones above I don't know about blowing goats, some seem to be into that and whatever kinks your cord, I don't speculate about what ppl do in their private lives.

YOU Silvermage, are like... SO dead.... I shall only provide cloister outfits for your toon girls hereafter. Grey Tower; Vickies and goats - well, you know, goats are a tad worse than horses, see and since using hotmail eternally changed my outlook on farm animals, so I thought I'd find an animal somewhat less cough offensive. Of course, since I am not a native English speaker, you'll have to forgive me any linguistic faux pas I may have comitted - maybe the phrase was blows asses ? Why do I think most naked vickies suck or blow whichever farm animal is handy ? Because the light is wrong, the pose is impossible, the eyes have no focus and the facial expressions come from the Rictus Academy of Facial Expression, and in general has little variation on the theme of showing T&A. Preferably moe T than A tho. Not to mention a lot of the time the figures aren't even properly on the ground. However, when artistic excellence like Argon18 makes a show with his impeccable wisdom and artistic flair, though, I have no other choice but to bow out to such overwhelming artistic odds. ~S

Thanks for the clarification spinner, however, blowing asses is still pretty kinky as far as I'm concerned! ;o)

I do understand where you are coming from though. There are many naked Vickies that aren't worth the pixels they phospores with. There are also many naked Vickies that are "art-worthy". While it's easy to turn our noses up at the "bad" ones we also have to remember some of those "bad" ones will evolve into "art-worthy" nudes as the artist evolves their skill and style. Instead of mocking them we should be encouraging them to improve.

One big part of the problem is that many have become so "sensitive" in regards to giving or taking criticism, there is little hope of encouraging improvement. Perhaps if there were tutorials on keeping naked Vickies from looking like refugees from a manikin factory, there might be fewer naked Vickies that "blow" anything...except on Renderotica ;o)

Well maybe part of the prob is what they're critisized for? If you're only going by a stereotype of NVIATWAS then you're not really seeing the image are you? That kind of thing tends to make ppl think that the critism would apply to other images besides yours and not take it seriously. All those probs like lighting, posing, expression and composition can apply to any image. Why single out NVIATWAS? It's also hard to take the praise spinner heaps on me seriously when you consider the quotes: Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are convinced beyond doubt that they are right. Laurens Van der Post The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge. Elbert Hubbard I think your idea of encouring ppl to improve instead of mocking them would be a lot more effective, tutorials would help a lot too.

Cloister outfits? from you? 8^O faints really? Because Krystal would be a very sexy nun eg

Aragon - spinner is a "she" not a he ;-) "It looked like spinner agreed since he said: I can clearly see I am out of my league when served with such solid, persuasive, intelligent and objective arguments like the ones above" Uhm, that was probably sarcasm. But the point is there are several who "specialize" in pin-up work. Over the years they have gotten worse - not better. Blank stares, interesecting body parts - you name it. Tutorials? Well I once posted a list of "tips" for newbies or those wanting to improve their images at 3-D Arena. I'm not the best artist no doubt but these were basics that the majority of NVIATWS images are lacking - the tips were ignored. So in order for them to improve they'd have to "want" to do more.

Dahling, last time I told you what was wrong with an image, you came and went "sightseeing" in my gallery. As for tutorials, I have several out, the last one currently at Daz. I am not sure that is enough though, it demands you actually -do- something. As for generalising - Nekkid vickies are a genre, and I am singling out that genre. ANd as I have stated above - I am not knocking the ones who create good stuff, if you could bother looking at what I wrote. Oh, and Argon18 - What's it feel like when the light goes on ? Grey_Tower, I hear you. I have no issue with the newbies who work hard at improving themselves, hell, I've been there, I'm currently ripping apart and redoing the first image I ever posted here because it is bad on several levels. But I have a major, major beef with the click and render posse who equate every inane piece of shite they throw out with a Major Work of Art because all Art is Equal. Like hell it is. ~S

But the problem seems to be that the genre has a lot more in it than the click and render images you object to. Why generalize your opinion on the whole genre when not all of them are in the posse? If you want to improve the images in that posse then leave NVIATWAS out of it and focus on the probs with click and render. When I visited your gallery then subject we were discussing was whether negative comments with nothing constructive in them would help to improve an image. It made the point since all it did was get me accused of "trolling" and didn't contribute anything to improving the image.

you trolled her gallery to make a point? That's pretty ridiculous - and juvenile. Besides logic dictates (you do have logic right?) that negative comments with nothing constructive in them - don't help an image - they don't help anything. Negativity for the sake of negativity does nothing. The fact that you stooped to trolling tells me exactly the kind of person you are, and it's not polite.

Well, I guess this is what happens at Renderosity if anyone dares to express dislike of Naked Vicki. Flame war. bonni

Besides logic dictates (you do have logic right?) that negative comments with nothing constructive in them - don't help an image - they don't help anything. Negativity for the sake of negativity does nothing. That was exactly my point at the time, which spinner didn't agree with. I didn't say I was trolling I said I was accused of it from a negative comment I made to prove a point that it wouldn't help improve an image. I had gotten spammed with negative comments about Render being a CG Porn site with a few others, and when it was being discussed spinner made another comment on mine to add the opinion that it would help, neither of them did and proved it. Expression of dislike of Naked Vicki doesn't start flame wars, confusion of terms and generalizations does, be it in politics, religion or taste in art.

BTW Argon - were you asking for what was wrong in your images? I thought you were asking in regards to someone else's images.
It appears more likely that you have a beef with spinner herself because Bonni made almost the same comments as spinner in post #15 and you didn't go after her.

and in post #36 spinner stated exactly why she dislikes NVITWS images - and frankly she isn't that far off. I just took a look at your gallery and I think that perhaps the real issue for you is that spinner hit a button?

You say to teach the newbies, do you honestly mean that? Because I've just cruised your gallery and your oldest pic is from a year ago, you aren't a "newbie" although I originally though so looking at your first images. I haven't seen alot of "change" in your images either and you stated above that people who want to improve over time do so and that they should simply be helped to do so, which is why I'm pointing that out.

So as an example. Do you think that tutorials/tips would help in regards to any of the following:

Adding shadows to your images
Not placing your characters with body parts in the floor or other "props"
Facial expressions
non-stiff poses?

Because if so I'll gladly put my tips & tricks on those subjects back up and post a link. And those are all the points that spinner and bonni and those who dislike the generic NVITWS images have issues with - thos are point & click issues.

Message edited on: 08/29/2004 10:22

argon where did you get spammed with negative comments? Were they in regards to your images or 'rosity as a whole? Negative comments can be constructiv - I've left many myself (and surprisingly been thanked by most of the artists) - including the post above. A constructive comment points out "exactly" what is wrong and advises how to fix it. IMO it's also best when in the galleries to find something good to say about an image. If I see an image that I can't post one single good thing on I also don't post a negative. oh and btw - rendo is pretty much a CG porn site - not as much so as 'rotica but it is up there. Most ":serious" artists have their own galleries they post their work in. I post here but I find that I can get more constructive comments at gfxartist than here.

Attached Link: Has most of my art on it

I'm not going "after" anyone, just the idea that the splatters a whole genre can be at fault when each image should be judged on it's own merits. Does anyone do that with landscapes, architechture or superheros? All those genres can have the same click and render probs as well. All of the things that spinner said she disliked in #36 can be applied to a lot of images besides NVIATWAS so what is the "real issue" and who's "button" was hit? No I wasn't asking what was wrong with my pics, in #22 I was giving examples of images that had the same probs that were not NVIATWAS. I've been on Render for more than a year but I've deleted a lot of pics from my gallery around 60 or so you can see some of the older ones on my web page I've been taking a lot of Graphic Design classes in college and I'm always ready to learn something more so if you want to post a link to more tutorials I can take a look at them and see if I can pick up anything from them. Automatically branding all NVIATWAS images as point and click is a problem with stereotypes and is not going to be effective getting anyone to improve the ones that need it if they are put in the same category as those that don't

It must've been directed at Render as a whole since several others had the almost the same comment by the same person on theirs also. They fell victim to going by a stereotype also. If you call it a CG Porn site you discount at least 80% of the images posted everyday. The key word is "constructive" if there are mistakes and you give advice on how to fix them then it'll be appreciated but just saying how bad it is and how much you don't like it, isn't going to help anything. I don't get very many helpful suggestions here either positive or negative. I have on CGTalk tho, if I was looking for "serious" I go there, here I mostly just share what I've done.

sighs all the po gal did is ask what the acro meant and all this happens - everyone does art differently and likes different things - that's what gives it variety; we're all still learning and that's what will make us better artists in the long run. That's all I wanted to say :) hugzzz to mrsparky for having the Q answered and muchly then some lol

sighing
Shakti

I ~think~ the thread is in the poser forum somewhere, LSM. Look up either me or Argon 18 - I tried finding it, but I get a "Can't find the requested forum" I said that a vivkie he liked, and who got shot by an arrow, looked like she was giving a BJ, and subsequently explained what I meant by that, but alas, without circles and arrows... Anyway - I am out of this thread. I want to finish this freebie T before I head in to work tomorrow. ~S