On 9/16/04 20:52 in the Merchant Forum here (for which it is a TOS violation to excerpt or reword posts), there was a post regarding a particular product name. This post, and the resultant thread, was a continuation of a separate one. I was not the poster. While I commented in the first one, I did not in the second one until I'd had enough. In the course of this thread, the administration of this site set forth as part of their present policy the following things: 1.) The denigrating term was not offensive to them, allowing anyone to thereby use said term to denigrate other women within the site since it is not officially an offensive phrase under TOS. Since there is no specific list of terms given, one can potentially expect that with a possible solitary exception, any term which denigrates women is acceptable and allowed within Renderosity TOS. 2.) Acted in a manner which was insensitive, dismissive, and condescending towards the individuals and the concrns expressed regarding this denigrating term. I have not reworked nor reposted the thread. I have simply described it in general terms. This will likely not matter, however. I became incensed that a community which claims (though aspires is a better term) to function professionally and supposedly seeks to promote community would both act in such a manner and make such a broad based decision when it was blatantly obvious that the term was offensive to a large number of merchants responding, and when a reasonable person would be aware that the term is, in the larger community beyond the site, predominantly considered rude and vulgar. I am generally a fairly reasonable person and not particularly given to breaking rules to which I agreed. There comes a time, however, when, for what one believes is right, that one must act, regardless of the risk or outcome. Therefore I have done so. I have recieved thus far one TOS vioaltion and had my access - and the access of a business to which I am partner -- to the Merchant forum removed for having begun the process of posting the complete thread (though I was unable to finish). I have essentially begun a campaign of awareness with the purpose of ensuring that the membership of renderosity and the customers who shop here -- inclusive of my own store and the store of that business to which I am part -- what the apparent policy of renderosity is towards the treatment and consideration of women. This appears to be, based on what is allowed in the store and the actions of the administration in dealing with matters such as this one, that women are second class, and of less concern to them, and unworthy of equitable treatment. So what can fix this? Action on the part of the administration to apologize for behavior and conduct and a retraction of the policy. Despite attempts by others and administration to make this particular point into an issue focussing on a single word, I want to make it clear that it has nothing whatsoever to do with a product or a product name, and that it has everything to do with the conduct and policy implementation of the site's administration. Apologies should be for behavior and conduct, not the policy, and the policy needs to be revisited, with acceptable and posted guidelines put in place. Until such time as these elements are done, I shall continue to attempt to educate the membership and customers of Renderosisty -- both current and potential -- as to this policy, as it is unlikely one that it is desired the customer base be made aware of.

sorry, but I'm way lost here. What are you talking about ?

I'm sorry but personally I'm getting to the point where I feel this entire planet is becoming so over sensitive and politically correct that it really makes me want to vomit. People today are so afraid to say what they truely think or feel that the only way you can get an honest opinion anymore is to get them stoned or drunk so they stop saying just what they think you want to hear and tell the truth instead. So a word was used you didn't agree with... so what, move on, get over it and grow up. To me personally I find political correctness like this far more offensive than every swear word or derogatroy term you could possibly come up with combined. I know this was a very minor thing to go on a rant about but attitudes like this are the beginning of the end of free speach and thought and I'm sick of it.

There's a product for sale here called "Juggs". The term is considered offensive by many. It was in the Merchant's Forum (I suppose, I'm not a merchant here) by the staff. There is considerable disagreement about whether the name of the product should be allowed, what could be done to correct the situation, and how the admins of the site handled it. Everything I know about it.

"So a word was used you didn't agree with... so what, move on, get over it and grow up. " whoops. Missed the point, read again. I could care less about the word, and the word is ancillary. The point is they were rude, and they put into place a bad policy that has consequences greater than they care for.

not having been involved in the entire ordeal, if you want to call it that, its hard to say much...should just keep my mouth shut. it appears to me the offending thing is the feeling, or fact?, that the TOS allows denigration of women by virtue of the fact there are no rules governing what terms can be used to describe certain body parts ??? Then a bunch of folks object to the term used, and the admins dismissed them in a rude manner. I'm sorry....I am trying to understand this because it involves folks I've developemd relations with over time in this and other communities.... However, this does sound status quo with the way things are handled, or mishandles around here for quite some time. Sensitivity to member's interests is important, but white washing reality seems to be a bit much as well, however, certain phrases and perceived sterotypes will not go away if something is not done to end it. I think as a society we have not moved very far, in considering other's feelings and needs. Political correctness may not be exactly the correct term. It is more in line with respect and sensitivity to one's brothers and sisters. In handling situations such as this, I think it important for all parties involved to remain tational and respect each ohter's views and feelings. Rudeness or curtly dismissing an individuals feelings is simply wrong.

especially when it is WAY more than one person that those feelings were trodden upon. I have watched this whole thing and this is the first I have said regarding it and will more than likely be the last, but I MUST point out that there are certain terms that should NOT be used in reference and respect to ones fellow merchants and customers. May I point out that there are certain racial slurs and terms that have nothing to do with women that I am sure would cause an even worse uproar than this one did, and yes, as a woman, I was offended but chose to ignore the small-mindedness of a merchant and their naming of products, and also the small-mindedness and rude behavior and rash policy naming without thinking it through of the administration as well.

Hmmm. Tricky. There may not be a 'right' resolution to this one. The term, or terms (there are others) used in these products are certainly from the school playground. I'm not sure that I would class them with racial terms, they seem a little too purile - I tend to shake my head with dispair but I'm not a woman and it is women's response by which we should judge offence in this case. Without canvasing the comunity for its response there is little hope of settling this. Perhaps they are best met with social presure rather than legislative anyway. I don't know. It's just a little sad to hear these terms from 'adults'. It is difficult for me or any of us non-merchants to judge, not being a party to the discussion in question. But I would like to see something done to resolve this that involved the community.

I can give you the solution, but you are not going to like it. First, I was an English major. My entire life, in one way or another, has involved words. Having said that, here is the solution. Words have no power of there own. Words are neither good nor bad, on there own. Words are nothing more or less what WE make them to be. There is no difference between the word copulate and the 4 letter word, which MEANS EXACTLY THE SAME THING, but is not acceptable while copulate is. Depending on the meaning of the user, any word can be as offensive as any other. Depending on how YOU take a word, any word - and, I mean ANY word - can be offensive. Here is the solution. Our society has to grow up and stop acting like little children. Words only have the power to offend that you give them. Take away the power YOU give them and they are no longer offensive. I have had people try to insult me by calling me a Redneck. Both my parents were born and raised in West Virginia. I was born in Texas. I wear jeans and cowboy boots and love flannel shirts. I simply reply, "Yup, I'm a redneck. A highly educated redneck, but a redneck just the same." I find no insult in it because I do not give it the power to be insulting. It, also, disempowers the insulter. You would think that everyone would have heard the old saying about sticks and stones. Unfortunately, no one seems to have learned anything from it. It is a sad commentary on our society that you have to hire a lawyer before you say or write anything for fear that you might "offend" someone.

Dear ynsaen, The original issue was definitely over the use of a single word in another merchants product name. That is what started this ball rolling. When a few merchants expressed their dislike of the product name, our Admin team looked into it. Our Admin team is comprised of 5 women and 4 men. None of the women have a problem with it, nor did we find it offensive. We also heard from many other merchants, several women included, that indicated that they did not find this offensive or rude. We did listen. We did respond. We investigated. Upon investigation discovered that this was not considered offensive or rude by a large majority, women included. We advised our decision not to force a name change. If we had found this to be offensive to more than a few competing merchants, or any complaints from members, we would have taken action to have the name changed. This was simply not the case. I do understand that a few people, for whatever reasons, may be sensitive with regards to particular terms or phrases. We apologize if you were upset by another merchants use of such a word. We apologize if you were upset when the action you desired was not taken. No offense was intended nor implied. Simply was a statement of the facts and the decision. Why force censorship upon a fellow merchant when a majority of people do not see a need to do so? What was lacking was respect from the few merchants that didn't like the word, to accept that there are many other merchants (including many women) that have a difference of opinion. Also missing was a lack of respect for following the rules of the merchant forum. I admire that you are standing up for your convictions. However, I think there are more positive ways to go about standing up for what you believe in. Ways that also respect the opinions of others. I hope this helps to clarify the issue just a bit. Best regards, LillianH Renderosity Marketing & Promotions

Lillian, By chance, did you happen to actually read what I wrote, or are you doing what so many others have done and read what you might like to see? Your entire post has, essentially, nothing to do witht eh specific issues I have, whatsoever. If you read it, you will note I don't actually have a particular concern about the use of the word. Which is a fancy way of saying I don't care what the damned thing is called. 1.) The denigrating term was not offensive to them, allowing anyone to thereby use said term to denigrate other women within the site since it is not officially an offensive phrase under TOS. Since there is no specific list of terms given, one can potentially expect that with a possible solitary exception, any term which denigrates women is acceptable and allowed within Renderosity TOS. 2.) Acted in a manner which was insensitive, dismissive, and condescending towards the individuals and the concrns expressed regarding this denigrating term. ONE is to indicate that in your decision, however general it may be, you have, since it becomes policy, you have now essentially made it entirely possible for anyone to call anyone else in this place "Juggs" -- and not receive a TOS violation for it. By extension, there are several other terms which may or may not be offensive to a greater majority of your customer and merchant base that can now be used, again without risk of violating TOS, creating a potentially hostile environment to women. TWO is precisely what you, in your, your, your amazingly inept manner have just done by utterly ignoring, misinterpreting, and flat out attempting to twist what I have said into something about something that it is NOT about. What I am having a hissy fit about (that I was pretty damned chilled out about right up until I read this) was the manner in which the people who did express their concerns were addressed and treated. ANd now I'm pissed off about it all over again, because this is exactly what I am talking about! Look at the tone and the demeanor of the sentences you just wrote! Look at the manner of expression! And now, oh boy, now let me dive in to what You did say and pick the shit out of it... "If we had found this to be offensive to more than a few competing merchants, or any complaints from members, we would have taken action to have the name changed. This was simply not the case." A - In the two threads combined, there were 17 female merchants who specifically had a problem with it -- and of them, none makes figures which possess exaggerated traits. B - How the heck are you going to get member complaints when members can't even see the threads? Well gee, there goes that one -- none of the folks with a cow are competing, and members at large can't se the thread. Obviously you didn't research it effectively. That or you lied. "I do understand that a few people, for whatever reasons, may be sensitive with regards to particular terms or phrases. We apologize if you were upset by another merchants use of such a word." Lillian, I've read your posts here several times on other occasion, I believe that you do understand that. I also believe you didn't pay a damn bit of attention to what I said becuase if you had, you'd note that you don't need to apologize to me. You need to apologize to the merchants you treated badly. "We apologize if you were upset when the action you desired was not taken. No offense was intended nor implied. Simply was a statement of the facts and the decision." Lillian, I didn't give a damn about the action being taken regarding the decision. Again, perhaps if you'd read what I said you may have understood this. So to twist this into somethign that I wanted, when I wasn't the one making the request in the first place is a bit bothersome. Somewhat reminiscent of, well, now that I think about it, what got me all pissed off in the first place. Gee -- funny, ain't it? "Why force censorship upon a fellow merchant when a majority of people do not see a need to do so?" Oh, so now I'm suddenly a censor? Damn -- and I didn't even ask for the name to be changed. Once again, you didn't read. ONce again, you are dismissive. Once again, you deomnstrate a need for some sort of serious sensitivity training within your company for there's something very wrong here, and it isn't me. "What was lacking was respect from the few merchants that didn't like the word, to accept that there are many other merchants (including many women) that have a difference of opinion. Also missing was a lack of respect for following the rules of the merchant forum." Not a few merchants, one merchant, Lillian. One who was fed up, and was becoming more and more aggravated by the condescension, dismissiveness, and failure to pay attention to what was being said by the administration of this site. Damn but I'm seeing a trend here. On the second one, I had full respect for the rules. I even told you I was going to do it. Twice. And then I did, knowing full well what the consequences would be. It's something akin to civil disobedience, not respect, Lillian. "I admire that you are standing up for your convictions. However, I think there are more positive ways to go about standing up for what you believe in. Ways that also respect the opinions of others." Thank you. I believe we should all stand up for what we believe in. However, I am willing to take suggestions for a method more positive than the one I have chosen. Perhaps I should have written an article to accompany the sending of the thread the newspapers? Is that it in particular? And I find it wholly laughable that you would infer that I'm the one devaluing the opinons of others when it is that same action on the part of renderosity that spurred my activities the past two days. That is an insult, ma'am. And I do not forget them, and I do not forgive them. and lastly but certainly not least: "I hope this helps to clarify the issue just a bit." Were you laughing loudly when you said that one? Were you and your compatriots giigling as that line was typed? becuase you are not a fool and you are not that thick headed, and that one is just, oh, oh, man did you piss me off.

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